The gleaming, stainless-steel kitchen at Dartmouth cafe Two If By Sea is a blur of activity, with a half-dozen young, black-clad employees milling about behind a panelled counter. Tattooed arms dole out espressos, dive into glass jars to retrieve gooey cookies and dig through baskets for croissants the size of footballs. Customers wait patiently in a lineup that extends past a winding staircase leading to an unfinished upstairs space. Those who have already been served sit at tables topped with small bottles bearing single flowers.
The cookies are especially popular today. A little boy wrestles with a chocolate-chip concoction nearly the size of his face, the same item that two female college students in thick-rimmed glasses have decided to share. They discuss an upcoming art show until they’re politely interrupted by Zane Kelsall, co-owner of Two If By Sea, who’s found a moment to step out from behind the counter and ask how the coffee is.
Kelsall is proud of his coffee. He and business partner Tara MacDonald are also proud to have chosen Ochterloney Street in downtown Dartmouth as the location for Two If By Sea, which opened late last fall—especially since a chorus of naysayers told them an upmarket java joint on “the dark side” couldn’t last.
“We had someone come in from a local paper and make a bet with us that we’d be out of business by the end of January,” Kelsall says with relish. “It looks like he’s going to have to pony up.”
Kelsall claims Two If By Sea’s sales are competitive with his former employer Steve-O-Reno’s in downtown Halifax, and the crowd around us—a mix of artsy students, moneyed middle-agers and moms pushing strollers—certainly indicates a strong market for lattes. He then points to a young couple sitting behind us—a couple that regularly ferries in from Halifax—as evidence that word of his cafe’s gourmet joe and buttery treats has crossed the harbour.
Halifax hipsters spending an afternoon in downtown Dartmouth? Kelsall thinks this once-unfathomable phenomenon could become an everyday occurrence. He and MacDonald believe in the potential of the neighbourhood, potential represented by the upscale Founders Corner condominium development with which they share the corner of Ochterloney and Wentworth. Potential further suggested by King’s Wharf, a massive mixed-use development project scheduled to break ground near the Dartmouth Marine Slips within the next couple of months.
“It wasn’t the reason we opened here, but it was a selling point,” Kelsall says of King’s Wharf. “When we were doing our marketing research, we realized that was going to bring more than 2,000 new residents in the next few years to the downtown core.
“We wanted to get in on the ground level.”
Kelsall feels Dartmouth is ready to shake off decades of stagnation to become a hub of social and economic activity. A place where scenesters can satisfy their appetites for food, culture and complicated coffee, and locals emulate the “Proudly Dartmouth” slogan written on the sandwich board outside Two If By Sea. They’ve already won the reporter’s money, but Kelsall and MacDonald are betting bigger stakes on just such a future.
Whether that bet pays off will depend largely on Francis Fares, the president and CEO of Fares Real Estate Inc. and the developer of King’s Wharf.
On a cold Friday afternoon, Fares looks out from his office window at the King’s Wharf sales building and sees a winter sun that sparkles off the water and paints the walls of the room a gauzy orange-yellow. The optimistic light matches the mood of the soft-spoken developer. With his project, which will cost up to $500 million and take up to a decade to complete, Fares is promising a dramatic makeover of the land surrounding the Dartmouth Marine Slips. His plan is to transform the unsightly space between Alderney Drive and the waterfront into a neighbourhood teeming with new residents and businesses. While the most iconic element is a 30-storey condominium tower, the project includes several smaller condos, office buildings, a hotel, a cruise ship terminal, a marina and retail space.
“We’re hoping it will be the hub, the centre, the downtown of Dartmouth, where people can live, work and shop,” says Fares of his development, one of largest in the history of HRM.
Fares, along with Kelsall and others, believes the spillover of residents, tax dollars and jobs from King’s Wharf will revitalize the entire downtown area, including a main artery, Portland Street, that is currently a gallery of weathered old buildings, empty storefronts and the odd shiny new business. Once he obtains the building permits for the first phase of his development, which is comprised of three condominiums and an office building, Fares will begin making alterations to a town starving for change.
“Dartmouth has been neglected for a long time,” Fares says. “I think it’s Dartmouth’s time in the next 10 years.”
Despite all the sunny talk, there are some troubling clouds obscuring the view of Dartmouth’s future. The very changes that could boost the city’s fortunes threaten to uproot its most vulnerable residents, bringing dramatic consequences to those whose lives depend most on routine. It’s also unlikely that the hip, happening neighbourhood envisioned by Kelsall will emerge out of a heavily condo-fied downtown.
With his crisp suits and deep pockets, Fares is certainly the kind of person who can bring new buildings, new people and new money into Dartmouth. Less certain, however, is what new identity will come with them.
The Among Friends Social Club shares its main entrance with one of the several tattoo shops that line Portland Street, and with nothing but a small, black-type sign to announce itself, it’s easy to miss. Chances are many people who live or work in the downtown area aren’t even aware that it’s here, or how important it is to the 50 or 60 people suffering from mental illnesses ranging from anxiety to schizophrenia, who come in every day to eat, watch television and socialize.
Patrons do all this in a room not much bigger than a large one-bedroom apartment, a busy space occupied today by about a dozen members. It’s a quiet bunch—whispered voices are drowned out by a blaring television—but friendly. A thin, silver-haired man clad in third-hand clothing and a welcoming gap-toothed smile leads me to the back of the building, to a tiny storage room that Beverly Cadham has converted into an office.
Cadham, program co-ordinator at Among Friends, worries that her members, many of whom live in the group homes and rooming houses that dot the downtown side streets, will not be able to maintain this shelter if property values and rents increase and developers buy up affordable housing. All of the members are on social assistance, collecting a maximum of $535 per month.
“If it’s $25 more or $10 more [for rent], that’s coming out of what they would spend on food, clothing or [prescription] drugs,” she says. “If the rent’s going up but the monthly income’s not going up, if people are selling off the rooming houses and housing blocks and leaving less and less affordable housing, that’s where your whole homelessness issue comes into play.
“If you take away more of that affordable housing, where are people going to go?”
Being forced to relocate is a trauma the club members are familiar with. Four-and-a-half years ago, Among Friends had to vacate its former home on Ochterloney Street because the building did not meet environmental standards. The club shifted its base to the Nova Scotia Hospital in Woodside, about three kilometres to the south—an inaccessible location for patrons whose illnesses and financial restrictions precluded complicated cross-town journeys. As a result, Among Friends lost about three quarters of its membership before moving back downtown two years ago.
Up the street at Our Thyme cafe, shop manager Mary Young and Barbara Darby, secretary of the board at the Elizabeth Fry Society, echo Cadham’s concerns. The Society helps women at risk of a run-in with the criminal justice system forge better lives, in part by providing jobs and training at Our Thyme.
With its corner fireplace and service provided today by a petite, greying woman with a gentle, attentive demeanour, Our Thyme gives off a cozy grandma’s-house vibe. Our server is one of a dozen employees here, a group of women with histories that include prison sentences, anger management classes and lack of housing.
In addition to Our Thyme, the Society also operates a rooming house on Tulip Street that provides women with stability in the form of short-term shelter. Without it, the nine current residents of the house, women working hard to put their troubled pasts behind them, would face yet another obstacle.
“If affordable housing gets pushed out from the core, our clients will have trouble getting in to us to use our services,” says Darby. Among these services are outreach and emergency food and clothing programs used by approximately 60 women in Dartmouth each month.
Darby isn’t opposed to condo developments such as King’s Wharf. She just hopes a more privileged crowd accepts and interacts with citizens from a harder-luck background. “I think a mix is good for everybody,” says Darby.
Karen Goudie also believes Dartmouth can succeed as a mix of new and old, of high and low-income residents. Goudie is coordinator at Feeding Others of Nova Scotia, a soup kitchen that operates out of the Margaret House heritage property on Wentworth Street, and feeds and clothes roughly 3,000 of Dartmouth’s less-fortunate residents each month. She says she’s experienced few problems since Founders Corner and Two If By Sea opened across the street and that a bigger, richer community could mean more support for her organization.
“You have to look at it in a positive way,” she says. “I hope it’s a healthy integration, and I think it will be.”
But there is a fine line between positive thinking and wishful thinking. Hugh Millward, professor of geography at Saint Mary’s University, says gentrification of the kind that appears imminent in Dartmouth “tends to take over a whole area and you tend to get a displacement of a lot of poorer people and people who are renting. What tends to happen is that they get pushed further out into suburban areas that are in decline.”
Goudie’s notion of a “healthy mix” would be more plausible if the HRM had regulations or incentives to ensure private developers included affordable housing in their plans But while a few city councillors are making a push in this direction, no such laws are currently on the books.
Gloria McCluskey, councillor for downtown Dartmouth, is one of those officials who would like to see the city require developers to provide affordable housing in their projects. But she also feels downtown Dartmouth has too high a concentration of rooming houses, and that development geared to higher-income residents is a winning move for the neighbourhood right now.
However, the town’s losing reputation has actually helped it stay affordable, and unless the community preserves sanctuaries for its most vulnerable citizens, the people left out of the winners’ circle will be those who can least afford to lose.
As Our Thyme’s Young puts it, “I don’t think anything would ever be a win for everybody.”
When Fares paints a verbal portrait of the people he expects to populate his condos, he speaks of empty nesters and young professionals. For such buyers, a clean sweep of Dartmouth’s seedier elements might sound appealing. But even those fortunate enough to afford to take up residence in a re-imagined downtown should carefully consider what they’re getting into. However noble Fares’ intentions may be, time and money have a way of throwing even the best of plans off course.
There have already been significant changes to the King’s Wharf project, in particular the decision to alter the order of construction from the original two-phase plan agreed to by the Halifax Regional Council and the Harbour East Community Council in 2008. Initially, the first phase was to include a small office building on Alderney, the tall condo tower, a public park and a boardwalk. But in December, Fares received approval to essentially reverse the phases and start with the three smaller condo units and office building, as well as some private park space and an extension of King Street. This shift in plans did not require public approval.
That may not matter to the majority of citizens who chimed in with overwhelming support for the development in public meetings over the past five years. But to downtown Dartmouth resident Toby Balch, the switch is a caution flag.
“To me it matters what’s going in first because you want to know what amenities are coming in and what’s guaranteed,” he says.
Balch recalls attending one of the public meetings regarding King’s Wharf, where his fellow citizens’ enthusiasm drowned out his more measured optimism. “I’ve never seen at any of the meetings I’ve been to such desperate enthusiasm for building anything and just getting rid of that eyesore that’s there,” says Balch. “I understand the sentiment, but my feeling as someone who lives downtown is, let’s wait as long as we can so we can get the best possible development to come forward.”
In Balch’s view, starting with what he calls “the bland bulk” of the King’s Wharf isn’t an example of best practices. Building the less public-oriented buildings first also leaves Balch concerned about the possibility that the elements of the plan most beneficial to the community could be abandoned. “If you want to be cynical about this, if [Fares] builds [the first four buildings], is the rest going to come?” he says.
The question has merit, especially coming from a man who, as an owner and renovator of several downtown heritage properties, is hardly a knee-jerk, obstructionist cynic. Although the development agreement includes public park space, waterfront access and a provision that one per cent of the total construction value of the project be dedicated to public art, Fares doesn’t exactly have a gun to his head.
“A project this size, there’s no guarantee that it’ll all eventually be built,” says Joseph Driscoll a senior planner with planning applications and community development for HRM. “There is always a danger when you’re dealing with phases that, whether it’s the economics or various factors, it may not be developed completely.”
In other words, the public amenities that look so attractive on paper might not advance beyond the blueprint stage if the money dries up.
For his part, Fares says the phase flip is the result of the recession, not a hint that he’s going to cut and run. The 30-storey tower was put on the back-burner, he says, because $600 per-square-foot units are a tough sell in a ravaged market. In his mind, it’s better to start with the more modest buildings than not start at all.
Balch understands the desire to start acting on the development after so many years of talk. He just wishes the conversation could continue a little longer. “I really hope and believe this will be an incredible development. I just think the way to do that is to have more public meetings.”
However, he acknowledges that doing so would mean further slowing down a transformation that most of his fellow dark siders are anxious to see proceed. The consensus among both residents and business owners is that in order to revitalize Dartmouth, the old must make way for the new.
Oddly enough, the “new” Dartmouth figures to skew older. If it follows the HRM’s demographic and condo-ownership patterns, King’s Wharf won’t be populated by yuppies and artists but by retirees moving in from the ‘burbs.
“We don’t have the same number of young professionals, even proportionally, as a city like Toronto, because we don’t have the same big finance industry downtown,” says Millward. “We’re getting a lot of people, a lot of the wealthy Maritimers who are downsizing from the four-bedroom suburban house to a smaller, inner-city condo, and they can do that because they’ve got the equity.”
That equity translates into authority, and if the senior-dominated downtown Dartmouth condo Admiralty Place is any indication, empty-nesters will fight hard for their own vision of downtown, one that doesn’t prioritize a hopping late-night scene. Portland Street watering hole Whiskey’s Lounge is one of many bars in the neighbourhood that squabbled with Admiralty Place residents when trying to obtain a licence for live entertainment after 9pm. Whiskey’s got its license last year after being turned down in 2007, but the battle left owner Jack Toulany exasperated.
“When you live downtown, you have to live with noise,” he says.
But Millward thinks grey power is a better bet to recharge Dartmouth than noisy, youth-oriented nightlife. Young artists give a neighbourhood hipster credibility, he says, but an older crowd with cash makes more of an impact.
“From the perspective of someone my age—I’m 60—why shouldn’t we think of a vibrant downtown being peopled by wrinklies?” Millward says. “It’s wrong to think that just because someone’s cool and hip and young that they are economically as good a deal.”
Still, one has to wonder whether the economic boost they provide will continue over the long haul. Years from now, when the sun sets on the first generation of empty-nesters at King’s Wharf, will Dartmouth once again go dark? There’s no such thing as a permanent panacea, and no matter how big a splash the development makes, citizens, business owners, community organizations and government will have to work to ensure that the changes are positive and lasting.
Almost everyone agrees that change is needed, that the neighbourhood must evolve from its current state. But hopes and expectations vary about what downtown Dartmouth should become, and history suggests that balancing the needs of rich and poor, big business and small, young and old is an elusive goal. A goal that downtown Dartmouth must somehow achieve if a new light is to truly shine on the dark side.
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This article appears in Feb 18-24, 2010.
I’m a relatively new resident to the downtown Dartmouth area. What drew me here was very affordable rents, access to amenities, etc. pretty basic stuff actually. I have to say this though: I was disappointed by the downtown core probably within the first few months we (my wife and I) moved in. The reason: too many rooming houses and halfway houses, too many sketchy hole-in the wall bars crammed with VLT addicts, too many run-down pawn shops. We don’t go downtown for anything, we hop the harbour to Halifax or go to Mic Mac for shopping. The only thing I go to the downtown core for is to use the laundromat.
I appreciate the need for these community services downtown, but the insistence that halfway houses and shelters be the norm is just as short sighted as a high-end focused downtown core. Regardless of where these developments happen, they’re not going to change the landscape enough to make it so that these services aren’t too far from areas/properties that would support these community services. The community won’t allow them to go away, and cheap rents won’t go away either, because we’re not changing the downtown core entirely. Lake Banook’s houses haven’t made property values inaccessable just down the street, so why would these developments?
My age range (25-35) will be the type who wants to benefit from this sort of expansion, because we have more disposable income, we’re buying houses and starting businesses. To start a business right now, I wouldn’t choose downtown Dartmouth to do it, unless it was a pawn shop. Simply due to the fact that the people with the money don’t come downtown to spend, because of that reputation. How do we get rid of that? Have some high-end businesses/residences and less hole in the wall VLT dens.
Good overview. Covers a lot of ground and probably worth expanding into more detailed coverage of the issue of integration of affordable homes into the grand plans of people such as Fares.
Mr Toulany should move in next to his bar, and learn to live with the delights of ‘noise’.
Most people in Alderney Landing have a lot more cash invested than he has. Take out his VLTs and he’ll close the doors, the booze he sells is an excuse to get the VLTs.
Barbara Darby likewise should put her money where her heart is, last time I checked she was safely esconced in Bedford rather than partaking in the delights of living next to a group home. I don’t begrudge her living in Bedford, in fact I pity her. If she lived in downtown Dartmouth or even close to the Fry group home she would be able to embrace the diversity of a neighbourhood which has existed for generations.
Parts of Halifax and Dartmouth wrote the book on diversity, the people just lived together and got on with their lives without busybodies coming around preaching ‘diversity’.
As my mother often told me, ‘Respect your betters because they know what is good for you’.
The Fares waterfront dream is just that, $600 per sq foot condos just don’t sell too well in metro and seems to be another of his projects that never go anywhere.
Big OOPS – should have been Admiralty Place, not Alderney Landing.
I hope the project fails – Dartmouth is a great place to live simply because it still exists on a mostly human scale (I’ve been here about 15 years). The last thing it needs is a neo-Jetson looking building blocking the view, full of aging yuppies and feckless millenials. Stick them out in their natural environment – like Bayers Lake and Dartmouth Crossing, and leave the downtown to human beings.
This proposal looks like the quintessential “ivory tower” where the “gods of dartmouth” will look down on the little people from.
Personally, I resent the effort to turn an impoverished neighbourhood into elite central. Instead of cleaning up, revitalizing and renewing a district where everyday folks can still afford to live, this solution (like nearly EVERY other development in downtown Halifax or otherwise) is targeted solely at the highest income buyers possible in an effort to turn every single remaining neighbourhood into a branded and packaged “LUXURY” living multiplex.
In the minds of city planners and local developers it seems as though “affordable housing” aren’t even remotely on their radar.
HalifaxCB— so you would rather see an area like Portland die a slow death due to VLT dens, and sketchy pawn shops? Because that’s what’s happening to Gottingen. I think the biggest pull of that area is the Subway. Wow, a Subway. Such a beacon of small business and forward thinking, it’s certainly the cleanest place on the street.
Big X— then what do you propose? More of the same? Because as I understand, that’s what people have been trying for years, and from what I can tell, there’s been little to no benefit.
Good news for you guys is that this will probably never take off because the NIMBY vocal minority won’t allow it to happen.
Dartmouth may “exist on a human scale” in one sense, but in another, you need a car to survive there, happily. And it’s not organized into the kind of landscape humans enjoy walking through. It doesn’t encourage walking, because you can’t get everything you need to do done in a single walking trip. The walk to the nearest supermarket is doable, but it’s not a pleasant one. The streets we enjoy walking are dotted with shops and eateries, and this project appears to be aimed toward precisely that kind of urban landscape.
With Burnside already under Dartmouth’s belt, this development brings the Dark Side to the table, and gives it a say in the decisionmaking process of an amalgamated city where it has historically been underrepresented and marginalized.
The need for affordable housing is stark, yes, and the question remains how to balance commerce and enterprise with inclusion and addressing social inequality. But simply blocking development isn’t going to solve the affordable housing problem. There is a cultural and ideological shift needed, so that people recognize the crucial need for cities which afford a basic level of dignity to everyone. That kind of shift does not happen by barring development. However, if there is energy and conviction from enough Dartmouth residents, pressure can be put on developers to allocate a certain amount of square footage to affordable housing initiatives, e.g.
One of the reasons I like living in Dartmouth is that there isn’t a community of hippy dippy types with big glasses flexing their muscles in a rat race of ‘autheticity.’ Remember when Gottigen was crappy? Artists came in because it was cheap. Once yuppies noticed that it was a ‘cool’ place to live, it got developed and prices went up. Gentrification causes artists to flee for more affordable pastures, causing yet more gentrification. It’s something artists need to be aware of, especially if they claim to be in favour of building real neighborhoods. The young professionals who will supposedly move here will find the ‘authentic’ and creative community they were looking for is gone – out to yet another suburban ring with cheaper prices.
Why do we think being branded a cool place to live is good for Dartmouth? Founder’s corner was built by removing actual historic buildings. Do we want to live in a town with a real history, or a city with historical style condos?
Yes! Let’s get some BIGASS buildings in HRM. More jobs! Fuck the Heritage Trust. They take it way too far. Want to protect a bunch of historic buildings? Fine. Want to preserve THOUSANDS of old buildings, some of which are crack houses? Fuck that! I say build 50 story buildings.
Yeeeah building faux historic condos doesn’t take a Pink Pearl to history there, GoH. The history will still exist, hopefully with a more vital downtown, which Dartmouth used to have 25+ years ago.
Whatever other pros and cons there are to development on the Dartmouth side of the harbour, one stark truth remains: Dartmouth has the best ‘harbour view’. When you’re looking out the floor to ceiling window of your condo on the 25th floor of King’s Wharf and you get the Halifax skyline plus tremendous views out towards the mouth of the harbour (something the Halifax side doesn’t have) you’ll think your mortgage is a bargain compared to what someone in Vancouver or Toronto would have to pay for that kind of waterfront proximity.
But I’m more interested in what’s happening down at street level. That’s where real communities are formed. An area that becomes a concrete and glass wasteland after 6:00 pm is the last thing we need for downtown Dartmouth. I’d recommend James Howard Kunstler’s very readable book “The Geography of Nowhere” for insight into how intelligent architecture and city planning can make for livable, vibrant, diverse urban communities, as opposed to “growth for growth’s sake” which leads to the kinds of pristine urban “dead zones” we’ve seen too much of in the last 60 years.
UrbanFarmerBob – You know what’s up. That was a great comment. This can be a positive thing for Dartmouth. It’s all about balance and proper integration of practical, tasteful, quality businesses and additions. You know, maybe it could give their neighbours a poke to refine their own businesses and take more pride. Who doesn’t want that? Give the landlords a poke too, to maintain their homes with pride, consideration for heritage, design, and creativity. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
Also, kayr: I also like what you have to say! Well put.
The whole 600$/sq.ft must go though. Comon, that’s not fair.
Dr. Fever, you should really reconsider not supporting the downtown Dartmouth business community. I live on Portland St. and spend my dollars downtown whenever possible as it will be used by those businesses to improve their properties and keep jobs in the region. So there are some VLT bars and tattoo shops, they haven’t been the cause of any trouble for me in the last year and I feel safer walking down Portland St. at 2am compared to some other parts of the HRM at that hour.
We’ve got a new drugstore to service the community as of 3 weeks ago, some decent restaurants, that new coffee house/bake shop, a great old office supply store (Fishers). What we really need is for Sobeys to open a “market” style neighbourhood store like they have in downtown Edmonton. There are lots of good people here and I find neighbours look out for neighbours, I can’t say the same about my years in the South End.
Even the Elizabeth Fry Society’s restaurant is a busy place since people know their money is being put to good use in keeping these ladies on the path to living in society again.
I agree VOR, however, I like this area too and I would prefer not to see this area turn into Gottingen.
What I find amusing is that people always assume that one building will destroy the community, instead of adding to it. When you talk of community, you just mean your already established community, you use the cloak of “heritage” buildings and gentrification as your defense. Who knows? The people that move in might add to the diversification of the community, maybe not. But what I do know is that a community needs to be inclusive, and if it doesn’t, it withers away and dies.
The article is waaaaay too long, but if a picture is worth a thousand words, I love that building! I would love to see Dartmouth’s waterfront built up with an expanse of high rise condos. Living in old, mice infested buildings in Halifax is so 1876.
I’ve lived in downtown Dartmouth, more on than off, since the mid-60’s. Me, I’m all for this development. Fact is, where it’s going is currently a wasteland, and it wasn’t exactly a going concern for a long time before that. Downtown Dartmouth itself hasn’t been what you’d call alive since the ’70’s at the latest. So I think this is a great idea.
Next step is to revitalize that desolation between Canal and Maitland streets.
The only concern I have is traffic. I see no good way of handling this problem. It’ll be interesting to see what they come up with. One thing’s for sure – just throwing in lights at the Alderney-King intersection will not cut it.
This shit will never get off the ground.
Will revitalize Dartmouth. Or Not. Good Idea. Bad Idea. Poor people. Rich people. Quality of housing. Quality of life. Bad for business. Good for business. Property values up. Property values down. Attracting people. Displacing people. Crime. Less Crime.
That’s not the real issue here. The real issue is very simple.
Francis Fares has mob ties.
Liverpoooool!
As someone who used to hang in that part of Dartmouth, lived for awhile as a kid on Hazelhurst st. went to Hawthorn school (yea, the old one) I would like to see something positive come out of the old Shipyard Property. But why a 25-30 story skyscraper ?
I mean bulid something that fits, or even 2 somethings. the Admiralty condo’s not too huge, it isn’t 30 story’s tall either !
But on canal street there was a grocery store, long since closed. There was a liquor store, also long since closed. But there is space around there to bring something like that back. I remember as a young man going to live shows at the landing, even popped into the Sternwheeler when it was a strip bar now & then. Still remember before that when Peoples Lunch was the best Fish & Chips deal in all of the HRM, bar none !
Every time I look at that artists conceptual drawing, I visualize what’s not shown, barbed wire fencing & security keeping everyone but those who live there away ! An elitist club in that spot isn’t going to do any good for anyone there now, nor is it going to help the neighborhood . But if you got several hundred more people living around there, just maybe some grocery store or market might come back & that would IMO encourage even more growth
Well, what took you so long to notice what is going on over here?
I live near both of the two new highrise developments in Dartmouth – the Fares development, Kings Wharf, on the waterfront, and the newly proposed development within the area of Greenvale, Starr and Shubenacadie Canal. There is a question that is nagging me, beyond the usual concerns about the inappropriate heights of these buildings. (I don’t think anyone denies that some sort of development is required, the problem is with the scale.) That niggling question is: why are the developers targeting the empty nesters, young and old, and the wealthy retired? They are busy touting ther “vision” but I see only an effort by them to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, and the historic community of Dartmouth be damned.
I would have thought that a mix of housing, including detached, semidetached and row housing for families would be ideal for downtown Dartmouth. For some time now families have been migrating to the suburbs, creating their own pressures on the municipality for infrastructure: water, sewer, transit, schools and so forth. Retail has contributed to this with the big boxes on the outskirts and closing of downtown stores in both Halifax and Dartmouth. But in the new world of today, such families would like to live closer to downtown where many of them work, if only they could afford it!
Another possibility to include in the mix would be a different kind of retirement community, one which caters to the tastes and high levels of education many baby boomers have, so that they can continue to enjoy their lives without feeling the need to migrate to places like Victoria or Florida. Wouldn’t it be fabulous if funding could be found for Dalhousie or St Mary’s to partner with a developer, and possibly other public and private institutions, to create such a community on the vacant land next to Greenvale and Starr? A partnership with the Waterfront Campus of the Community College could result in the construction of “green” and carbon-neutral buildings. Now that would be an address worth having!
So my ideal “New Dartmouth” would include the proposed developments, although scaled back to a more appropriate size. Kings Wharf would include a large component accommodating middle income families – there are already schools, a library and public transit in the neighbourhood, we just need a grocery store and a hardware store. There is space for that where the harbourfront Market now is: long ago a Dominion store! And the development on the shores of the Shubenacadie Canal, where the inclined plane may be daylighted, would be ideal as a mix of family and retired people, with a partnership with educational institutions to enhance the quality of life of the entire downtown. I believe that bringing in this type of mixture of people would be healthy and contribute to the lasting revitalization of Dartmouth.
So there could be an amazing vision for downtown Dartmouth. Is there any chance that our politicians, the ones with the power to make the decisions that will change this city forever, is there any chance that they will see beyond the developers’ rose-tinted glasses to the true city that is possible, and really does lie within our reach? Let it be so.
Yeah, and I’m dreaming of winning the Stanley Cup.
Vibrant downtown, full of grey hairs. No young people.
Taxis outside Lawtons picking up the old and the crippled from medical appointments.
A few hip people using a bank loan to buy an espresso.
A 32 year old parking lot behind the Royal Bank. People used to live there until March 31 1978 when the council expropriated the properties for ‘Urban redevelopment’ – still waiting.
Brave new world, never arrived.
Ugh, I hate when people complain about building heights… Take a trip to see a goddamn city and come back with a new attitude!
Dartmouthy, you haven’t been very observant when you’ve visited Large Cities. Or do you have all your knowledge from T.V.
I have been to cities….IF New York City (Manhattan) ,Chicago, Huston & LA & New Orleans since Katrina… do these count as Cities. I’ve also been to Toronto, Winnepeg, Calgary,Montreal & Quebec & Ottawa & Vancouver & Honolulu plus cities in Mexico (although not Mexico City) & except for Honolulu I’ve been there many times.
So I have a little bit of knowledge about cities.
And do you know what those cities have that we don’t have ?
Streets that are 60 to 100 feet wide. streets with 4 to 6 lanes of traffic + parking spots & 20ft wide plus sidewalks. We don’t have that here, if we try putting buildings as tall as those in downtown Manhattan in Halifax & Dartmouth, many places will see little to NO SUNLIGHT. There will be no place to park for the THOUSANDS of people each building can & will hold.
So unless we’re ready to knock this city flat & start from zero. With a complete redesign of our streets & sidewalks putting dozens of skyscrapers up on these narrow roads isn’t feasible !
Thanks More. 4 lanes of traffic, 60 feet wide – do you mean like Alderney Drive, the arterial road that is steps from these projects, is that what you mean?
I have been to all those cities you mentioned with the exception of Honolulu and LA, but I have also been to Baltimore, Philadelphia, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, DC, Boston…
Buildings as tall as those in Manhattan? Well even I have no faith that Halifax would ever be progressive enough to handle something like that – 100+ stories isn’t going to happen. 23 stories though? That’s not what I’d even really call a skyscraper, but I guess in these parts that’s all it takes to qualify. NYC isn’t just Manhattan though, it’s a city of hundreds of neighborhoods… look at Downtown Brooklyn, or Queens… many many neighborhoods, not all of them have 4 lane roads and humongous sidewalks, but they do have dense development and access to transit – There aren’t many places in Halifax with as much access to transit possibilities as Downtown Dartmouth has – like 10 bus routes and the ferry? Walking trails?
The thing about the sun is that luckily for us it doesn’t stay in one spot in the sky, that whole rising and setting thing 🙂
Sure buildings can create shadows, but with mirrored glass on the outside they can also reflect light to areas that otherwise would never receive it.
Halifax as a whole (and Dartmouth for that matter) are locked in the mother of all Catch 22s – build it and the people will come – or do nothing and hope we can afford to continue on.
I’d rather build it – especially considering it is developers taking the real risks and tax payers aren’t on the hook…
I’d love to have some competition for the run down rat infested flats in the area, something other than 1 Oak or Seacoast towers to choose from. There is a market for condos and apartments in Downtown Dartmouth and I have every confidence if people are willing to invest tens of million dollars in Downtown Dartmouth that we should be embracing their vision, not looking for ways to be an obstructionist.
PS I grew up on Wentworth St as a kid, went to Hawthorne, and my parents live on Hazelhurst… I still live Downtown, have all of my life! There’s nothing more I’d like to see than a mix of old and new in Downtown Dartmouth, and not just low rise schmuck like Canal Bridge or that other building on the Starr site, that would look just as at home in Highfield…
PS… 75% of those in Manhattan do not own a car…. Parking isn’t really an issue, just for the tourists it is. Development has FORCED new yorkers to rely on transit and to find other ways of getting around – dense development has FORCED new yorkers to be one of the most environmentally conscious cities in the world. Development isn’t the boogey man, at least not in New York, only in Halifax.
Dartmouthy, Alderney ends few hundred feet up the road into Portland street & if you have 2 busses on that part of Portland stopped, the road is effectively blocked. To widen it, buildings would need to be removed. If you go straight through the lights you end up in the already over burdened Prince Albert road.
Go the other way, & your a little better off, but still filling downtown Dartmouth with 23 story buildings isn’t a solution IMO. Not that we couldn’t use more apartment & condo complex’s I would love to see more of both, not just Condo’s, because many people have no wish own & others cannot afford a condo, but a nice apartments are another thing. I can see the attraction of developing the Shipyard site, although access is limited it could be reworked, & there is definately space in around Canal Street where a market would fit or even ‘shudder’ a mini mall or combination type complex. Something so the area residents could actually do most shopping in the area.
I grew up in that area & know it fairly well. If the Harbour cleanup solution ever starts really working Dartmouth cove will be a much more pleasent place at low tide in summer !
As for the rapid transit system…the last thing I hope to ever see around here is an overhead. The noise & disruption may be all that can work in a city the size of Chicago, but then their main arteries are already wider than most of ours. That is our real problem many of our main roads are too narrow & cannot be easily widened to accommodate thousands of extra people !
Although if a light rail system ran from the ferry terminal in Dartmouth out to autoport, where lines already exist, if this was implemented, the huge increase in people already living out there, would have a much quicker access to both ferry terminals & Downtown Dartmouth. Even when I lived there (Hazelhurst St )that rail line was never what I’d call very busy.
I should point out Moore that when I mentioned other cities… I meant that other cities don’t seem to have the same anti-development flair that many people seem to have here in Halifax.
No wonder the city’s own projections show Halifax will stay under half a million residents for the next 25 years… People here don’t want our city to be successful.
Dozens of monstrous apartment buildings all over the city is one thing – but opportunity sites (such as Downtown, areas with access to mass transit and other forms of transportation) should be given less of a hard time by the city and by residents.
I mean really – people complaining about noise from bars… people complaining about building heights, people complaining about shadows… People complaining about the wind! People complaining about how it should complement heritage buildings.
When does it end…?
If people want nothing to ever change why would they live in the Downtown of a city in the first place – shouldn’t they be in a commune in the sticks somewhere?
Guaranteed they will never have to feel the effects of man-made shadows or have to listen to bar patrons and certainly they will never have to deal with pedestrian or vehicular traffic 30 miles into the woods from Keji…
Hey Moore, as far as I know most people who live in Dartmouth don’t work up Portland Street – Probably in Halifax. So there is the ferry, there is the bus, and god forbid there is a 4 lane arterial road all the way to the bridge and beyond to Burnside.
Who is talking about filling downtown Dartmouth with 23 story buildings??
I see ONE in this proposal! And the 30 story tower proposed at Kings wharf. I’d hardly call that filling.
dartmouthy – Halifax pre amalgamation had a population of 116,000. It is not a city.
Dartmouth was circa 60,000 – not a city.
Get over it.
Nova Scotia has less than a milllion people. Get out there and procreate, give your friends the same message.
Comparing New York with Halifax is laughable, try some small mid western town.
This is ‘Smallsville’.
Always will be.
Some places are big and some are small. We can make Dartmouth a nicer place to live but that requires realism.
Hey, JB, you might want to tell cities that have a similar to HRM, or less than 1 mil population to that they’re not cities. Victoria, Winnipeg, Windsor, Saskatoon, Regina, Quebec City…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_1…
I hate to use Wikipedia, but this lays out actual census data in a pretty logical way, and uses what is defined as a metropolitan area, according to stats Canada.
Dr. Fever – In area we are the largest municipality in the world.
HRM has, I believe 340,000 people.
When you have been to Bombay, Yokohama, Tokyo, Houston, LA, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Sydney, Singapore, you begin to realise what a city really is. Great architecture, great, culture, great museums, great history, centres of business not centres of government.
Yokohama & Tokyo are practically one city. In fact almost all of Tokyo bay is one city.
Metro Halifax, a nice place to live. Could be nicer if we had the larger population and the moeny to make it a great place to live.
Windsor, busted and houses for sale for $30,000. Why would anyone want to be like Regina or Saskatoon ?
I spent 8 years in a town of 140,000 and never thought I lived in a city; the nearest city was 15 minutes away.
Face it, we are a government town. Always has been, always will be. The business community knows it and they rely on selling goods or services to government. Not exactly an entrepreneurial class.
Then, by that reasoning, you shouldn’t be calling anything except large areas like NY or Singapore Metropolises.
We’re arguing semantics here; it really doesn’t matter whether or not we’re a “city” or not. A project like this could restart interest in this part of the city, or even in the city in general. Sure, it’ll probably never get past planning.
I’m just annoyed that there are people like you that can’t see the forest for the trees; you never look past the initial proposal, pooh-pooh it, then when it’s canceled, you’re the first person to say: “I told ya so, nothing ever gets done in this town”. Meanwhile, the tallest building in the city remains Fenwick Tower. Wow, what a feather in the cap. I hear it has a pool at the top.
Dr Fever – I am more interested in what is achievable, what brings families to the area and what is labelled affordable. The Dixon deal has none of the attributes, other than the small building and that only covers the word ‘achievable’. Mr Dixon plans to start that project before moving on to the towers which means the towers are at least several years away if he had the green light tomorrow.
I want more families in the urban core rather than out in the boonies crying for new schools, roads, sports facilities. Sprawl is the enemy, something I said 20 years ago.
Expropriating the lot at King/Church would be a good start because it would tell landowners that sitting on land for more than 5 years is not acceptable.
Wander over to Dawson Street and look at the empty swath of what was once residential property. Vacant for about 10 years , when it should be full of humans taking the bus, working, paying property taxes, adding beauty and vibrancy.
When HRM passes starts putting money where its mouth is and pushing development that makes a community then we can all be a little happier.
Your comment about ‘Not seeing the forest for the trees’ is rubbish. I know what makes a community work, town or a city, and my knowledge is based on living, visiting or spending significant time in cities. HRM isn’t working and won’t as long as it just sits back and allows development one little lot at a time.
Tell me why the Dixon project would ‘restart interest in this part of the city’ ?
Queen Square didn’t.
Alderney gate didn’t.
Admiralty Place didn’t.
176 Portland Stret didn’t.
None of those projects had any opposition. The Big Project mentality ignores reality. Look around Dartmouth and see the mistakes and see the succeses.
When you give me the answer I’ll pass it on to my developer friend who owns significant assets in the area, and one of his projects has been a resounding success.
You see, we’re not going to draw young families by having old Victorian houses. That’s the problem. We’ve been brought up with the newest, shiniest toys. So, we want the newest, shiniest houses. Yes, we need to be realistic, but we also need to aim high; so that when it comes to the building process, the actual result is what you want.
The building(s) as planned will never see the light of day. They’re experimental in a market that doesn’t want to be experimental. HRM’s many ultra conservative housing groups ensure that the village “aesthetic” is kept, under the guise of “history”. Never mind that the houses aren’t well insulated, prone to fire, so on and so forth. That’s why people who are buying houses are moving to the suburbs, into duplexes, semi-detached. They’re paying similar or less amounts for better product. How do we turn that around? Throw groups like the Heritage Trust out on it’s ass. They’re only protecting the rich people that can afford the upkeep on such buildings.
Joe Blow – so we _can_ make Dartmouth a nicer place to be but it requires realism?
So is what you call realism that crap you spew out of your fingers and onto the screen on this message board? If so we are all in serious trouble.
Of course we are not New York, but New York has had so much success and we’d be retarded not to try and emulate the things that have worked for them – and not only them but any myriad of cities you rhymed off like the world traveler and all around good guy you seem to think you are. Anything else would be asinine.
You say you think urban sprawl is evil (and I agree), but yet you have so many objections to dense development in the core – how do you reconcile these two diametrically opposing views?
As far as I know, if an area is incorporated as a city, it is a city – incorporated as a town, it is a town. Sure Dartmouth/Halifax/HRM is not a large city by any stretch of the imagination, but that does not mean we shouldn’t have a development vision, and a plan for what will get us to where we want to be – a self sufficient city, with growth and optimism. Looking to the future while recognizing the past. Not trying to relive it.
No one project will be the tipping point, but a collection of projects sure isn’t going to hurt. Having more people living and possibly even working in Downtown Dartmouth can’t be a bad thing. An ecosystem within an ecosystem. Then perhaps there will be a business case for a grocery store, or other amenities that have been lacking in the area for decades.
But yet you still find ways to shoot in the foot the development that makes these amenities possible.
Ah your development friend… I see. All this negativity you are portraying is just a symptom of your “developer friend” who isn’t on the leading edge of turning Dartmouth around… some kind of sympathetic sour grapes, is that what this is all about? lol
PS couldn’t agree more with most of what you are saying Fever – even if I am truly excited by the experimental vision! 🙂
fever & dartmouthy – so when will you be buying one of these ? :
http://www.nnegroup.com/floorplans.html
Total units 38; sold 30, 8 unsold. On the market for over 2 years.
Show your faith with your money.
Thank you for cross posting Joe… though I’m gonna suggest you read my response on the other column.
fever & dartmouthy – which one of these properties do, you live in ?
Ten available. Must be within your budget based on your previous comments.
http://www.444rent.com/availability.asp?Ca…
http://www.444rent.com/details.asp?UnitID=…
dartmouthy – When will you be moving to Admiralty Place ?
Has everything you say you want.
Great view, pool, bars close by, ferry a 3 minute walk. Contact a real estate broker, I believe a few are avilable.
Or hurry up and put your deposit down for this :
http://www.444rent.com/details.asp?UnitID=…
Wow that whole site lists 10 whole rental units in all of Dartmouth – thanks for proving my point so eloquently Joe 😉
That’s actually not bad of a deal, too bad there is no pool and I would be stuck on floor 3 or 4, when if it was a 30 story building we were talking about there would be infinitely more choice and cheaper rents.
dartmouthy – or this, great view no chance of it being blocked. Put in your own pool.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx…
dartmouthy – the developer at Greenvale has done a great job. I would love one, so come buy my property and I’ll move. The Dixon monster would ruin this location and drive down the value of the property.
Forget rental, find a friend willing to share the cost of ownership. Pools are a nuisance, maintenance, liability etc. so most devlopers stay away from them unless they get big dollars.
Another ugly pretentious highrise on our beautiful waterfront. When will we realize how much we are losing when we cowtow to developers ideas like this thing?!? NO ONE comes to HRM, to see high rise towers. Ask them, if you don’t believe me. We keep tearing down what is left our of history that DOES attact them, and granted, this tower is not doing that, but a low rise, medium density development that might tie in with the historic remains on the other side of the harbour might be more appropriate. Might even be more affordable for some of us to actually live in, too.
Sure BlueTeapot, let’s chuck all the high-density residential proposals out the door and keep watching the downtown areas die a slow death as everyone moves to the suburbs, great idea. Love that you complain about new developments leading to the destruction of the old, then turn around and acknowledge that King’s Wharf is built on an empty pile of mud formerly occupied by some shoddy corrugated metal warehouses. BUILD IT. BRING PEOPLE BACK TO THE CITY.
Whats pretentious is people who think highrises are a scourge on a “beautiful waterfront”… That land has been inhabited by Irving for decades, while they sandblasted lead paint off of eastern European freighters, dumped various chemicals into the ground and the water, and were a general nuisance… Yeah lets bring that back Blueteapot… let’s save our industrial heritage. lol. Lets predicate our entire existence on what attracts tourists, while we are at it.
IDEA: if we’re going to let developers make these huge high-rises, let’s require them to put in a certain amount of affordable housing units.
I grew up in Dartmouth and the downtown has always been really interesting, if a little skeezy. But where are all those people going to go when it turns into condo land? I hope that we can take into account all of the people who live in that area. Otherwise we’ll be creating new problems as quickly as we’re solving current ones.
Joeblow , I thought the new Greenvale developement was apartments.
I didn’t realise it was a condo .
I don’t go by there very often, having moved out to the country, I spend most of my time here now.
Downtown Dartmouth needs to be cleaned up! On Portland Street, robberies and assaults are prevalent. I try to quickly walk to the bank from my car to avoid the aggressive panhandlers. There are a lot of loiters around store fronts and it isn’t a place for families and tourists to frequent. Too many tattoo places and drinking establishments on the street. Still looks sleazy and needs to be revitalized (similar to Manhattan, 42nd street( and make it a people-friendly area; no amount of new high rises is going to take care of that!!
This would be badass, but some more waterfront walkway would be pretty great too. The train is shitty, but they have the same train problem in Whiterock, BC and it’s beautiful there!
What needs to happen, is AFFORDABLE HOUSING, & RENT CONTROL!
Its really simple, clear out the fire traps that exist in ‘the darkside’ replace with simple & Accessible, affordable housing, Metro Housing needs to have its butt kicked, they barely own anything, they leave it up to PRIVATE landlords to provide housing, Well, let me tell you something, most of that ‘provided’ housing, WILL DISAPPEAR, as soon as condo developers move in, flashing big bucks to these private building owners, I experienced it happen in Hamilton Ontario, witnessed it in Toronto, London, Cambridge, Mississauga & other cities with crushing homelessness issues…
I want to know WHY this crap NDP government has done NOTHING for the disabled in this province??
I’ve been a life long NDP supporter in my hometown of
Hamilton, but no more, I see the lack of ball, the lack of support the disabled in this province get forced to exist..
Also, not enough of the soup kitchens/food banks are properly accessible, I would love to go to Margaret’s, but every time I do try, theres a big fuss, as to there being ‘no room’ for my wheelchair, which is very small compared to most ( I’m not alone, I’ve heard the same issues brought up, from others in wheelchairs).. So instead of being able to stay in Dartmouth to eat, I & others with physical disabilities, have to cross the harbor, which is not fair to people with disabilities..
At least Hope Cottage & St Mary’s are accessible.. in fact they are the ONLY daily soup kitchens that ARE accessible, its disgusting that the Salvation Army, on Barrington, is NOT accessible to those with physical disabilities to eat in their soup kitchen!!
I AM PROUD TO LIVE IN DARTMOUTH!!!
I LOVE DARTMOUTH!!!