Where were all these individuals and organisations, who are now protesting the Zimmerman verdict, when OJ was found not guilty. —Confused
This article appears in Jul 11-17, 2013.

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Where were all these individuals and organisations, who are now protesting the Zimmerman verdict, when OJ was found not guilty. —Confused
This article appears in Jul 11-17, 2013.
85 Comments
If I’m not mistaken, there was outrage when OJ’s verdict was read as well. The same can be said for KC Anthony.
Hezz is right. there was a fair bit of outrage at the OJ verdict and rightly so.
Trayvon was unarmed, he was stalked and shot to death. The perpetrator was found not guilty of manslaughter or second degree murder because the jury felt he acted in self defense. A head scratcher. Zimmerman had the gun, did the stalking, yet he acted in self defense.
It is a race issue. Anyone who thinks it isn’t are kidding themselves. It’s also another bad example of the gun culture there. The whole thing is just so sad and so unfortunate.
A lot of the protestors probably weren’t alive when the OJ circus was in the headlines. Jesse Jackson was a little busy covering up his illegitimate child at the same time as counseling President Clinton on morals. Then there’s that epitome of racial harmony, unless you’re Jewish, The Rev Al Sharpton, a self promoter and a shyster.
I’m waiting to hear the book or movie deal that Ms. Jeantel gets, I don’t know who will do the speaking part, either that or it’s subtitles time, get that cracker?
Justice in Canada isn’t perfect, look no further than NS, but at least it isn’t a three ring circus, where the media and mouthpieces discuss it 24/7.
Hey guys remember that ONE TIME 20 years ago that a black guy got away with murder? Well great news! Now we can use that over and over again to legitimize all future injustice and prejudice where a black person is the victim. Because we all know no white person has ever killed a person and gotten away with it.
maybe it was because you were six when OJ was acquitted… Or you had Alzheimer’s. Either way… your memory is spotty, is basically what i’m trying to say.
“It is a race issue. Anyone who thinks it isn’t are kidding themselves.”
Really? Tell me more about how you made your informed decision. You must have been there. Did you also attend the trial? I just love how knowledgable you are on an event that took place in a different country after it had been filtered through several biased US news outlets. Clearly, you see the hard facts.
Zimmerman had a broken nose and lots of evidence of being beaten, that is completely filed. He still had no right to kill with a gun under the circumstances though. Even if someone breaks into your house in Canada you can’t shoot them unless they have brandished a weapon. The U.S is race, and gun crazy, a mixture that only makes these situations a matter of time before they happen. Zimmerman should have at least gotten manslaughter, and not to sound sexist but it shouldn’t have been an all woman jury. That was a pointless decision that could only complicate things just as much as an all man jury.
It really says a lot when one of the jurors is trying to capitalize on the situation by writing a book about her ordeal.
There was an article in Huff Post that showed 52 people had been killed in Chicago just during the time of the trial, most were young and black and killed by other young blacks, what a society!
A shocking indictment of gun culture, indeed.
Tell me, whose “culture” was to blame for the death of Drummer Lee Rigby?
*Hint, He was wearing a hoodie at the time, as well.
Ivan, I’m going to take a wild guess and rule out the Mormons and Scientology, even though the Scientologists managed a miracle by turning a dwarf into a movie star?
I think it’s the ROP, the enlightened group of 11th Century folks whose Pakistani leader sent a letter to a girl they tried to murder, because she had the audacity to want an education.
I read that. He apologized for not warning her, but not for trying to kill her.
What a sport!
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz1meaaX…
A FUNDAMENTAL POINT OF LAW
“Where were all these individuals and organizations, who are now protesting the Zimmerman verdict, when OJ was found not guilty?” Confused
The answer to your question is very simple. OJ was black. The individuals and organizations protesting the Zimmerman verdict are black. If Zimmerman had been black there would have been no individuals and organizations protesting the Zimmerman verdict. But Zimmerman was not black. He was white. Hence the individuals and organizations protesting the Zimmerman verdict were black. In any event, the two cases are totally different. In the OJ case, there were no grounds for a self-defense plea since, clearly, he had slit his wife’s throat as well as that of an innocent bystander. OJ’s lawyers played the race card with success. The question was turned so that it was not so much whether OJ had in fact done the deed but rather he was the victim of an oppressive white system of justice. Far from protesting, the OJ verdict was a cause of celebration in the black community.
But the present comments on the Zimmerman case have overlooked a fundamental point of law. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. There is no burden of proof on the defense. In other words, the defense does not need to prove that Zimmerman was innocent. The prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Zimmerman was guilty. This is fundamental to our legal system. It is called “the presumption of innocence”. This they failed to do. They failed to do so because the alternatives, first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and manslaughter, were unsustainable in a court of law. That is what “the rule of law” MEANS.
In the case of first-degree murder it must be shown that the defendant planned to murder the victim and proceeded to carry out that plan since that is what first-degree murder MEANS. The question then is, how long must the defendant have planned to murder the victim in order for it to support a first-degree murder charge? Years? Days? Minutes? Did Zimmerman plan to murder Martin by “stalking” him? Prove it. For that matter, prove that Zimmerman “stalked” Martin at all. Prove that Zimmerman “profiled” Martin. Go ahead, prove it. Unless one has access to Zimmerman’s mind, which one doesn’t, it can’t be done.
In the case of second-degree murder it must be shown that Zimmerman, acting on a momentary blind fit of rage – for that is what second-degree murder MEANS – shot Martin dead. Was Zimmerman in the possession of such a blind fit of rage? Prove it. Once again, unless one has access to Zimmerman’s mind, which one doesn’t, it can’t be done.
In the same way it is difficult to support the charge of manslaughter. It must be demonstrated that Zimmerman was handling his gun in an inappropriate and reckless manner – perhaps he was shooting at stray dogs in the compound and unintentionally shot Zimmerman by mistake – since that is what manslaughter in the present case MEANS. In other words, the prosecution must show that Zimmerman’s killing of Martin was unintentional. It must be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt. That is like proving an negative. Proving the absence of intentionality – to say nothing about proving that Zimmerman was actually shooting at stray dogs in the compound (which he wasn’t) – can’t be done. Once again it requires having access to Zimmerman’s mind, which one doesn’t, and so cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
This leaves Zimmerman’s plea of self-defense. Once again, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. They must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was lying, that he was not acting in self-defense but rather intending to commit murder. The burden of proof is not on the defense. They do not have to prove that Zimmerman was telling the truth about his plea of self-defense. The prosecution has to prove that Zimmerman was lying, that his intent was to murder Martin. But this brings us back to first-degree murder which has already been shown to be unsubstantiated since it also depends upon having access to Zimmerman’s mind, to his unarticulated motives, which we don’t.
Case dismissed!
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Well Mr. Fish or can I call you Bastard, you can put the parts together and the implications are clear. Young black man, hoodie, gated community. What’s a poor cop wannabe with a gun supposed to do? Let him get away? The dispatcher told him to stay where he was and wait for the real police but that was no good, the thug would have robbed or raped by then.
Sorry for the facetiousness but Zimmerman had absolutely no reason to follow Trayvon. Zimmerson thought he looked suspicious because.. well we know why. So he stalks him, he shoots him and is found not guilty ultimately because he was acting in self-defense. I’ll say it again, he stalked Trayvon, Zimmerman had the gun. Self-defense? and for Christ Sake who is more likely to be yelling “Help! Help!” in an altercation, the guy with the gun or the other guy?
Now I’m not saying Zimmerman shot Trayvon because he was black, he certainly stalked him for that reason, he shot him because he was about to get his teeth knocked out.
I admit I do not know exactly what happened in that altercation but a lot can be inferred in the fact that one man was on a mission and the other on his way back home after going to the store.
I’m no fan of the fanatic jihadist culture either Ivan. Equally as obsessed with guns.
…cleavers, machetes, Semtex, acid, rocks….
I’m not sure what kind of point I’m making here, Reg. If any. I’ve kind of stayed away from commenting directly on the issue, although I certainly have had some fun with people’s perceptions of it.
At the end of the day, I confess, I’m one of those who who can understand why Zimmerman thought he had to do what he did, because I have utterly no comprehension of what it must be like to be a young black male in the U.S., or Canada, for that matter. Empathy, sure. One life ended; another changed irrevocably. But I also empathize with those who feel that they are under siege. I’m not proud of feeling this; nor am I ashamed. It is simply the way I feel.
Sorry, can’t wrap this one up with a neat little punchline, or appropriate meme.
Reg, you’re leaving out the part where Trayvon, in order of progression:
1. Bashed the back of Zimmerman’s head against the pavement.
2. Reached for Zimmerman’s gun when he saw it, BEFORE Zimmerman put his hands on it.
3. Upon seeing the gun, told Zimmerman “You’re going to die today.”
Those were some of the facts that were discussed during the trial, and not just by Zimmerman, but by a witness.
Whether Trayvon was black, white, asian or hispanic, it is likely Zimmerman would have acted the same way.
I’ll just leave it at that, because ultimately it is irresponsible to play the race card when you know absolutely NOTHING about the actual events that took place.
Race might have played a part, yes. But you can’t just irrefutably state that it was an issue, hands down. Those are just assumptions populated by the media in order for the case to blow up like it did and profit from it – and you and many others fell for it.
“Even if someone breaks into your house in Canada you can’t shoot them unless they have brandished a weapon.”
Sure you can… you just have to put a knife or axe or something in their hand afterward.
Apparently Z is not a fool
the poor SOB breaking into his house is
No I wasn’t there and one can only judge on the information they’re given. The three points you brought up in your last post Mr. Fish, I’ve only heard of the first one and that one wasn’t substantiated. Media conspiracy? Possibly, the media tends to jump on bandwagons and reports on what will sell rather than glean the truth. The days of Woodward and Bernstein are a distant memory.
However, the facts as I have seen and read seem to indicate that Zimmerman was overzealous and he killed an innocent man.
Whatever, Bastard Fish. The point is not racism alone, its that a young man died because he was SUSPECTED of, or in the act of, perpetrating a property crime, by someone not trained in a) making that sort of assessment, or b) how to handle themselves around a supposed criminal. “Citizens on patrol” is just wrong, wrong, wrong, especially when they are allowed to carry a loaded firearm and act like a police officer. Police matters are police matters, period. Ordinary citizens have no place in law enforcement, other than being witnesses. Whether racism actually plays a part in this is moot, cause given the situation of a hooded black man in a gated community acting “suspiciously”, is all that is needed to inspire racist undertones. A young life was snuffed out because someone’s fucking TV or stereo is viewed to be more important than human life, to some guy who has no business making that decision. Police are supposed to make decisions like that, not armed vigilantes.
Ivan, it’s only the teeth, too bad it wasn’t a good shanking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23367877
Pleasant surprise, Baz. I was under the impression that H.M. Prisons were similar to Tower Hamlets – a no-go zone for the khufar. Of course, it could have been done by another Mujahid removing the first major obstacle to halal bj’s
Undoubtedly, the taxpayer is paying for these?
http://ecofren.files.wordpress.com/2012/07…
That’s just gonna rile ’em up even more
http://lubpak.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/…
Silly, silly mohammedans.
A FUNDAMENTAL POINT OF LAW (2)
Some readers have failed to distinguish between: (1) the fundamental point of law I previously pointed out (07/18, 9:27AM) to the effect that in a trial at law the burden of proof is always on the prosecution to establish guilt, not on the defense to establish innocence and, (2) that indeed this was a trial for murder and not, as some seem to think, simply a venue for the expression of their free-floating, unsupported opinions. In a court of law, unsupported opinions, inferences, ponderings, musings and so on are irrelevant. This means that such expression would be immediately challenged and rightly thrown out by the judge.
For some, however, such unsupported inferences, opinions, musings and so on are indistinguishable from the truth. They think that their assertions are self-validating, that they are true simply by virtue of their having uttered them. Some uncharitable souls would claim that this is the hallmark of stupidity. Indeed, it is a point to which I have continually drawn attention on this site, ie. reasons must be given in support of all truth claims. Otherwise they are to be disregarded as empty vaporings. So to a quick review:
: Reg Le Crisp (07/18, 9:47AM)
“… you can put the parts together and the implications are clear…”
Really? On what grounds do you “put the parts together?” On what grounds are those “implications” based? Can you demonstrate their truth? And what, exactly, are those “implications?”
“Young black man, hoodie, gated community.”
Really? Does this imply that young men in hoodies in a gated community are scoundrels, or is it only your own prejudices which you are asserting? Can you give grounds for those “implications” or is it only your own prejudices you are ventriloquizing into Zimmetrman’s mind?
“… Zimmerman had absolutely no reason to follow Travyon. Zimmerson (sic) thought he looked suspicious because … well we know why.”
Really? No, as a matter of fact, “we” don’t know why. Tell us now. How do you know what Zimmerman was thinking? How do you know what he thought? How do you he had no reason? Do you have special access to his mind? And why do you call Zimmerman “Zimmerman” but Treyvon Martin “Treyvon”? Is there favoritism here? Can you justify it? No, I didn’t think so.
: I’ll say it again, he stalked Treyvon, Zimmerman had the gun. Self-defense?”
How do you know Zimmerman “stalked” him? To stalk someone is to follow with extreme malicious intent. How do you know Zimmerman had such malicious intent? Do you have grounds to prove that? Yes, Zimmerman had the gun but was being assaulted. He was being beaten by Martin. So yes, it is possible both to “have the gun” and plead “self-defense”. Can you prove otherwise?
: “… and for Christ (sic) sake who is more likely to be yelling ‘Help! help!’ in an altercation, he guy with the gun or the other guy.”
How do you know, given the conflicting circumstances, who was “more likely” to be yelling “Help! Help”? Simple possession of the gun as in this case does not permit you to assert who was “more likely” to be yelling “Help! Help!” Unless, of course, you have grounds for that assertion which, of course, you don’t.
:”Now I’m not saying Zimmerman shot Trayvon because he was black, he certainly stalked him for that reason, he shot him because he was about to get his teeth knocked out.”
What happened to the “young black man, hoodie, gated community.” Aren’t you contradicting yourself? And how do you know, once again, that Zimmerman “stalked” him because he was black? Do you, once again, have privileged access to Zimmerman’s mind? And if the self-defense plea was no good since he had the gun, how was it that Zimmerman shot him “because he was going to get his teeth knocked out?” Why wasn’t it Zimmerman was calling out, “Help! Help?” Any explanation for that? No, I didn’t think so.
: “I admit that I do not know exactly what happened in that altercation but a lot can be inferred in (sic) the fact that one man was on a mission and the other on his way home after going to the store.”
Well if you don’t know exactly what happened in that altercation, on what grounds do you make your “inference” from the “fact” that one man was “on a mission” and the other was just “on his way home after going to the store” just, you know, minding his own business? It sounds to me like you know exactly what happened. Can you give grounds to demonstrate it? No, I didn’t think so.
For you it seems that your unsupported inferences, musings, ponderings and so on are indistinguishable from the truth of the matter in this matter as, no doubt, in so much else, and, as a consequence, deserve the contempt they so richly deserve.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
So…what you’re saying is that philosophical hooey is not admissable in court. Right, MM? This is something we already knew but thanks for clearing that up for us.
PS; this IS a court of public opinion, not a court of law. I am entitled to whatever opinion I choose to adopt.
the zimmerman verdict was a victory for all great people and freedom fighters around thew orld!!!!!!!1 the animals crying about it need to be herded up and sent back to the zoo. standing your ground is one way to save the west!!!!!!!1111
All over the internet people have been blatantly racist because of this. One of the most racist things you can ask is the question posed in this bitch and I stand by my first post, though I was admittedly surprised at the amount of dislikes.
I watched the protests on livestream via anonymous, the ones I saw were really more of a vigil than a protest, to lament the unjust decision of the courts. And killing an unarmed teenager IS unjust and a perfect example of excessive force, make no mistake about it. We’ll never know the answer to this but…suppose Trayvon was a white teenage female and the same thing happened. Do you still think the jury would have found Zimmerman innocent? They very well may have but I, personally, doubt it.
RSVP
: Stephen Harper (07/18, 8:08PM)
Well no, Stephen, I’m not saying that “philosophical hooey” is not admissable in court. I know that this is going to be difficult for you but – wait for it – philosophy and law are two different areas distinguished by different criteria of truth.
In law, as I have continued “ad nauseam” to point out Stephen, opinion unsupported by evidence is not admissable. You see Stephen, Reg’s “inference” failed because it was not based upon such evidence. In other words, one can infer something only if there is evidence to support it. It’s a two-stage process, Stephen. It goes like this: (1) Have the evidence and (2) Infer from that evidence to matters of the guilt or innocence of the accused. Reg’s “inference” lacked (1) and so reduced it to the level of unsupported opinion and so was invalid in a court of law.
For philosophy, on the other hand, to seek for such “evidence” is incoherent because – wait for it, Stephen – it does not deal in specific cases as in a court of law but rather with the grounds and principles of knowledge in terms of which such evidence is to be accorded the status of evidence in the first place. In other words, Stephen, philosophy is a “second-order” study, one which includes but is not limited to the first-order study of law itself.
But Stephen, this does not mean that law and philosophy are never related. Indeed, at the highest level of law, that of “jurisprudence” – those principles which undergird the practice of courtroom law – the two come together. Jurisprudence, normally found at the level of opinions given by the justices of the Supreme Court of Canada may be seen to be indistinguishable from philosophy itself. So, Stephen, law and philosophy meet at the highest level of the former but, of course, the latter is not restricted to matters of jurisprudence but extends well beyond it to include those relating to existence itself.
It is true, Stephen, that Bitch is a “court of public opinion” and not a court of law as you point out but do you know why I put the words “court of public opinion” in quotation marks? That’s right Stephen, I put it in quotation marks because a “court of public opinion” is not really a court at all. It is a “court” only in an extended, diminished and metaphorical use of the word. But, Stephen in the present case, that of the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman, was NOT a case in any diminished, extended or metaphorical sense but – wait for it Stephen – it was a case in the real world where a real life hung in the balance.
Of course Stephen. you are indeed entitled to hold any opinion you choose but only in the tavern, not in a court of law.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
The reaction to the case demonstrates why it is impossible to have that “frank and honest discussion of race in America” that media talking heads demand every time something like this happens. The case was decided by its partisans long before it ever reached the court. Supporters of Zimmerman (mostly whites & conservatives) NEEDED to demonize Martin as a thug, NEEDED Zimmerman to be doing the right thing, defending that which laws and police are no longer perceived to be competent to defend. Martins supporters(predominantly blacks and liberals) were equally motivated by the same need to demonize Zimmerman, to make him the focal point of every injustice inflicted on Black America for the past 3 centuries. Truth be damned, because truth frequntly has the unenviable potion of being positioned inconvenintly in that middle ground.
To address HarperD’s comment about property being more valuable than human life (and this has nothing to do with the Martin case) – guess what. The cheapest piece of kitsch in my home is more valuable than the life of a thief. You know why? Because it’s in my fucking home and anybody who breaches the sanctity of that has lost any right to the benefit of the doubt about motives and mentality. I’ve never dealt with that event and hope fervently that I never have to. I’m not going to brag about having a licence to conceal and carry a 44 magnum, and I’m not trying to sound like an internet tough guy. But anybody in my home without my permission is going to wind up fighting for his life.
RSVP
{ Multi-Culti Ivan (07/19, 8:55PM)
“The case was decided by its partisans long before it ever reached the court.”
Your “logic” is circular since deciding the case “before it ever reached the court” is what it MEANS to be a “partisan”. That is a very bleak, regressive and deterministic view of society in general and human beings in particular. But is it true? Is everyone simply a “partisan” as you suggest? Is there no escape from the blinkered ideological view?
It seems to me that there are those who are neither “supporters” of Zimmerman, purportedly driven blindly by their political/social and race affiliation who will not, in knee-jerk fashion, demonize Martin as a thug, nor are there those who are “supporters” of Martin, purportedly driven blindly by their political/social and race affiliation who will not, also in knee-jerk fashion, demonize Zimmerman as “the focal point of every injustice inflicted upon Black America for the past three centuries.” Are there those, in other words, who transcend the state of serfdom to our respective blinkered ideologies?
I believe that there are some who are not so condemned. Who are they? They are those who uphold the rule of law as in court cases such as that of Zimmerman. What is that rule of law? It is the presumption of innocence until proven – yes, proven – guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That is why that case in particular is so important, for the rule of law is the only egress from imprisonment in our blinkered ideologies. The rule of law rises gloriously beyond them. In a word, it is our only hope. It is all we have.
To say, then, that there is no rule of law is to condemn our civilization to perdition, to a Hobbesian state of a war of all against all.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
“Is there no escape from the blinkered ideological view?”
I’ve seen little to encourage optimism, and I’m probably as guilty of it as the next man.
I’ll just have to stand my ground against that Hobbesian state of war in the future.
Well, MM. Im flattered at the amount of hooey you felt was necessary to defend your hooey, and disprove my hooey. Apparently, for someone of your intellectual stature, you have serious trouble identifying sarcasm.
I can respect and appreciate everyone’s opinion, so please consider my question: when someone breaks your nose and slams your head into the concrete, is it reasonable to assume that he will stop short of killing you? When you are possibly one fatal kick to the head away from dying, is it reasonable to defend yourself? And,if you support the idea of lethal force only as a last resort, is it reasonable to say that zimmerman was in a situation of last resort?
I doubt anyone here watched the whole trial and are basing their opinions on media bobbleheads. The jury saw all the evidence and heard all the testimony and gave their verdict. The jury was made up of 6 women (one would think their sympathies would have been with the child) and they made their decision. If the verdict had gone the other way, there would have been people outraged about that too.
“LEX FONS LUCIS”
I thought it might be an idea to post a picture of my Dalhousie Law School crest, the only tangible result of my very brief time in Law before doing my Ph.D. in Philosophy, my true home as it turned out. However, its motto, “Law The Font Of Light,” resonates deeply. It captures my view of the Law – I capitalize the word intentionally – as that which embodies the rule of law, that which distinguishes civilization from a state of barbarism.
RSVPS
: Multi-Culti Ivan (07/19, 9:59AM)
Well, good luck on that Ivan. Keep your powder dry and may the devil take the hindmost.
: Stephen Harper (10:09AM)
I find identifying Internet tone such as that embodied in sarcasm very difficult, Stephen. I await your tutelage in this regard with considerable anticipation. (That was, um, sarcastic.)
: Great Value (10:13AM)
I think that it is eminently reasonable, GV.
: Dim Bro Tim (10:50AM)
Well no, Dim Bro, I didn’t base my opinion on the “media bobbleheads” as you suggest. Quite the contrary – I thought that CNN pair should have taken their rightful place place on the prosecution. But you’re wrong about the womens’ sympathies being with “the child” and so made their decisions on that basis. “Sympathy” has nothing to do with it. That would have been a travesty of justice, a rejection of the rule of law which demands that the accused are innocent until they have been proven guilty “beyond reasonable doubt.” Zimmerman was not proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Thanks for clearing that up, MM. I’ll try and keep it simple for you from now on, i wouldn’t want you to waste your important tolling time on having to decipher whether or not I’m being facetious.
Note to the moderator/Coast – would you kindly consider limiting the size of postings and rebuttals?
Don’t you just love when people can’t form a logical rebuttal?
They will either state that they’re entitled to the opinion (no shit, everyone is), or they’re backtrack and say they were being facetious or sarcastic.
MM
I thought that if someone (Zimmerman) shot another person who he thought was going to kill him in a fit of compulsion that that could be considered manslaughter in some circumstances, as in the case of VOLUNTARY manslaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter
I’d be more concerned if Ms. Jeantel fell on me, she be a porka.
douche
Ivan
You have a territorial complex mixed with getting off while you imagine yourself while you talk. Beat off every once in a while and release some of that testosterone like all of the sane men out there who’s mama didn’t whip him and make him wear slacks.
I ain’t joking.
Daniel, this has less to do with manslaughter and more to do with this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-gr…
To say we shouldn’t comment on something because we weren’t there is completely asinine. We weren’t there for pretty much every bitch that hits this site. The Zimmerman case is being discussed in thousands of internet forums as I write this. Very few people “were there” but it is a very relevant case in regard to perception about race. A lot of black man get detained or stopped by the police for no apparent reason. I’ve heard about this kind of thing personally, anecdotally and read about it. A huge number of black men have been convicted for crimes they didn’t commit. Project Exoneration, a group trying to bring justice (via DNA analysis) to those wrongfully convicted. Of those 310 exonerated, 193 were black. That’s 62% while blacks make up only 14.1% of the population of the U.S. where this project is taking place.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DN…
A large portion of blacks distrust both the police and the court system because of this. So, in this case, you have a young man going to the store for treats and then going back home. A citizen-on-patrol spots him and radios his dispatcher saying he is acting “suspicious”. In this case, what he meant by “suspicious” is the $1,000,00.000 question. He didn’t elaborate and he didn’t take the stand in his court case. I personally think it meant young and black in a gated community because there had been B&Es in the area.
The citizen-on-patrol continued to follow the young man despite being told not to because he deemed this guy to be a menace to the community and besides, he had a gun. Three minutes after last speaking to the dispatcher the COP had shot and killed the young black man who was unarmed.
The COP was cuffed and taken for questioning but later released. BTW, the young man’s father didn’t find out about his death until the next morning when he filed a missing person’s report. Nice eh? It took weeks of community outrage and intense pressure for the police to even lay charges against the COP. This, for a capital crime. So fastforward to a year later and an acquittal by an all-white jury, the COP walks and starts a new life.
I’m not black nor will I profess to having an inkling to what it’s like to be black but I can understand the frustration and fury at the imbalance here. People, mostly white, see this as one court case and let’s move on. Many blacks see this as yet another travesty of justice something almost systematic. So if we hear a lot of harsh rhetoric from the black community cut them some slack or even better, listen.
Very well written Reg. One of your best posts to date IMO.
RSVP montrealman on 07/19/2013 at 9:36 AM
I agree with most of what you said regarding those “who transcend the state of serfdom to our respective blinkered ideologies”. But I put forth that the rule of law, as glorious and triumphant as it is, it is not always RIGHT. I would also state that just because something is a law does not make that thing unbias toward an ideology. The law in the states that allowed Zimmerman to plead ‘self-defense’ with any substantial credibility (the deciding factor in this case) was created in 2005 and signed into law in only 20 states. It is called “Stand your ground.”
My problem with this bitch IS NOT the court proceedings that took place in the United States this week. It is the undertone of cold resentment, ignorance, indifference and subtle racism that is implied with a statement like:
“Where were all these individuals and organizations, who are now protesting the Zimmerman verdict, when OJ was found not guilty.”
What this statement is really asking is:
“Howcome when somebody kills a black kid in a way that everyone kinda (wink, wink) knows is wrong everyone gets upset but when a black guy gets away with it (wink, wink) nobody gets upset.” Never mind the fact that the cases (places, laws, people, circumstances, evidence) are completely different or that they happened 20 years apart.
“Ivan
You have a territorial complex mixed with getting off while you imagine yourself while you talk. Beat off every once in a while and release some of that testosterone like all of the sane men out there who’s mama didn’t whip him and make him wear slacks.”
Wow. Harsh , but fair.
You were probably sportin’ wood and your little Qaaba was moist and tingly when you typed that, right Ibrahim.
And don’t be dissin’ slacks. Anybody who ever lived through the 70’s fervently hopes and prays that no other generation will have to go through that, just to satisfy the obscene greed of the Fashion-Industrial Complex.
Methinks it’s time for you to shake the dust out of your date-rapin eyebrows and get back on the old poonanny trail, right Daniyel?
You do see what I’m doing with all these back to back posts, don’t you.
Of course you do.
So, follow the dictates of your Holy Book and go nail some of that hot, hot prenubile action.
Is Ivan joking, or ain’t he. Only Yahweh knows for sure.
RSVPS
: Stephen Harper (07/19, 12:29PM)
Stephen, I believe that should be “trolling” instead of “tolling” but perhaps you mean something of a higher, more metaahysical order. I shall have to take time to reflect upon it.
: Basil Fawlty (2:17PM)
Very powerful Basil, very powerful. I hope my reply to you is sufficiently brief.
: Daniel Abraham (3:24PM)
The phrase “voluntary manslaughter” implies intentional manslaughter – mone voluntarily did the deed – but since “manslaughter” MEANS the absence of intention, that phrase is incoherent.
: Reg LeCrisp (10:25PM)
“To say that we shouldn’t comment on something because we weren’t there is completely assinine.”
I’m not sure if your comment is directed at me but I’ll reply anyway. I entirely agree. To comment on something of which one has no direct evidence is called “hearsay” in a court of law and is always rejected. We saw it when Zimmerman was, simultaneously, “stalking” Martin with malice aforethought and, at the same time, the hapless victim of a brutal beating and, indeed, in imminent danger of being murdered. Comment all you like Reg, but only in the tavern and not in a court of law. The rest of your comment, while compassionate, is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
: HoistThatRag (11:37PM)
“But I put forth that the rule of law, as glorious and triumphant as it is, is not always RIGHT.”
But you have failed to understand, on two counts, what “the rule of law” means. First, you have confounded the PRODUCT of the rule of law, laws which appear on the statute books which, of course, are not always right, with the PROCESS of the rule of law. To speak of rule of law as not being “always right” is therefore incoherent since the rule of law aims at IMPARTIALITY. That is all. That is why the iconic female figure of “Justice” holding the balance scales is blindfolded. She embodies the IMPARTIALITY of the rule of law, not its “rightness”.
Your claim that if something is a law does not make it unbiased is a comparable confusion. You are confounding the product with the process. Law seen as the statutes of law of course may be biased – one thinks of the Jim Crow laws of the American south – with the process, the impartial rule of law and NOT the statutes themselves.
Similarly again, you have confounded Florida’s “stand your ground” law – a particular law in a particular state – with the universal injunctions of impartiality as embodied in the rule of law.
I answered your question about where were all the individuals and organizations who were protesting the Zimmerman verdict when OJ was found not guilty before. Anyway, the individuals and organizations protesting the Zimmerman verdict were predominantly black – there are of course exceptions such as yourself – while those protesting the OJ’s acquittal were white. While in the OJ case the question of actual guilt was never in doubt – he regularly used Nicole Brown as a punching bag and she wanted out and so he slit her throat as well as that of a hapless bystander – the question of guilt in the Zimmerman case was never proven beyond a reasonable doubt since Zimmerman was the only witness and there was no convincing circumstantial evidence.
God, I hope that this hasn’t been too long for Basil.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Who’s backtracking, Bastard Fish? The fact that I addressed MM’s post with sarcasm has nothing to do with what I wrote in my response to your post. I 100% stand behind my response, which was neither sarcastic nor facetious. Those were two completely separate conversations.
MM, in this case I believe that this particular “stand your ground” statute was put in place to protect Trayvon, not his attacker. As a citizen, you do not get to pass judgement and be judge, jury, and executioner because you “believe” that someone may be in the process of committing a crime. The fact is that Zimmeman stalked his prey, because he believes that “people like this always get away”, after being instructed not to by law enforcement (to eliminate the likelihood of this very situation) seems to me to be the exact opposite of how to apply this law.
So my interpretation of this “just and unbiased” law is that, as long as you accuse someone of being a criminal (no matter what your motivation may be) you can create a situation, even against the direct advice of law enforcement, where you antagonize someone to the point of assaulting you in self defence, shoot them dead so they cant contradict your story, and become a neighbourhood hero.
All I have to say is “AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!!!!”
What this statement is really asking is:
“Howcome when somebody kills a black kid in a way that everyone kinda (wink, wink) knows is wrong everyone gets upset but when a black guy gets away with it (wink, wink) nobody gets upset.” Never mind the fact that the cases (places, laws, people, circumstances, evidence) are completely different or that they happened 20 years apart.
Dont try and assume what i was trying to say flagbearer.
What i am trying to put forth is injustice is injustice. And these so called crusaders of justice, eg NAACP, pick and choose (based on creed)the causes they stand by, instead speaking up against all injustices. To me that in itself is racist
You know flagwaver, your on a witch hunt, looking for things that are not even there.
People who think like you are scarey, you would have done well for yourself during the inquisition, and also through the McCarthy years.
Jackass
Hey DDT your a racist sack of shit you fuck face.
Go fuck yourself you ignorant sack of shit.
Woops, first post didn’t go though. My bad. Still, glad to say it twice.
RSVP
: Stephen Harper (07/20, 1:18PM)
MM, in this case I believe that this particular ‘stand your ground’ statute was put in place to protect Trayvon, not his attacker.”
Stephen, you seem to be in a state of deep confusion. While a statute is never “put in place” to protect an individual, Trayvon or anybody else, your real blunder is in misconceiving the statute’s actual application. What was that application? George – since you used Martin’s first name I’ll use Zimmerman’s – pleaded self-defense. On what grounds did he plead self-defense? You’ve got it, Stephen. He pleaded self-defense on the grounds of the “stand your ground statute,” i.e., when armed with a weapon, usually a gun, and faced with a mortal threat, one in Florida is legally permitted to use that weapon. To repeat Stephen, that was the basis of George’s self-defense plea. You’ve got to start with the facts of the case, Stephen. There aren’t many, but this is one. The rest of your post is little more than unsubstantiated hearsay – George “stalking” Treyvon and all that – of the sort on which I have previously commented. Have a nice day, Stephen.
I hope Basil found this short enough.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
No, MM. You’re missing the point…
Zimmerman put himself in that situation, specifically against the advice of law enforcement. He was the aggressor, not Martin. Martin was defending himself against some assclown chasing him down on a rainy night, armed with a loaded firearm. Does it matter that Zimmerman was doing this for what he sees as altruistic reasons? In my eyes, no. If someone chased me down on a dark, rainy, night for going to the store for a treat, I’d try and knock that motherfucker out too. I have, and so does anyone else, the RIGHT to walk down the street minding my own damn business without being harassed and detained by anyone, the police included. It was Zimmermans actions, ALONE, that precipitated this entire ordeal, period. If he had let the police do their job and not interfered, none of this would have happened.
Given the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that Martin was involved in any criminal activity, the only thing criminal that happened that night was what happened to Martin. I don’t give a flying fuck about the courts and the very specific rules that jury’s must abide by in making their deliberations. I don’t give a fuck about the racist undertones. What I give a fuck about is that the law/courts see nothing wrong with what Zimmerman did when he directly disobeyed police instructions to not follow Martin. That should have resulted in, at the very least, a charge of criminal negligence causing death. Instead, they let him go free and commend his actions.
This perception of “authority” that these neighbourhood watch organizations, which in most cases adds up to nothing but dumbass redneckery, tout around as gospel is what annoys the fuck out of me. They seem to think they are better at law enforcement than the actual police officers, like they are filling some sort of gap, but aren’t governed by the same pesky protocol. If it was an actual cop that shot an unarmed “suspect”, the outcome would have been a lot different.
Nobody should be telling anyone that it’s ok for a private citizen to stalk and harass anyone, for any reason. If shit goes down in your house or on your property, have at it but, when it happens outside of your “castle”, it’s a police matter, period!!!
The “Stand Your Ground” Law seems perfectly justifiable when it’s a white guy stating he was afraid or intimidated by a black teenager.In contrast, it seems inexcusable for said black teenager to defend himself in that situation.The “Stand Your Ground Law” is flawed with prejudice.
As i wrote, here it is again,”What i am trying to put forth is injustice is injustice. And these so called crusaders of justice, eg NAACP, pick and choose (based on creed)the causes they stand by, instead speaking up against all injustices,” I’m basicly stating my position that the Zimmerman verdict was unjust.
Now, would a racist hold that position, or would they be happy with the verdict.
You must practice a lot, to be that fucking stupid.
Why is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People protesting the murder of a black kid? And you’re going to call me stupid, eh?
Maybe it’s because they are systematically misresresented withing the communities that they live in and are sick of seeing black people being treated like second class citizens, even murdered by their own law enforcement officers and then seeing these things go by unpunished. Whereas in this case, Zimmerman was not even a law enforcement officer, just a lunatic with a gun and he got off scott free.
You’re a fucking moron.
And as I said and will say again your original post, ie. this bitch does not shed light on ‘injustices being injustices’ it does the exact opposite and clearly singles out one specific race.
Ya, now that I read it again that was harsh. I’ll take it back.
I’m no stranger to the sin of Onan, but taking a swipe at my slacks and my mama was low. I had 27 of them, not just one. I was raised in a hippie commune at Wounded Knee, South Dakota . I’d been through 3 Sundance ceremonies, before my nuts had even dropped, because “All the other kids are doing it” and that ain’t any kind of fun. I still have to tape my nipples down in cold weather lest I be accused of being “as happy as a little girl”
Retraction accepted.
RSVP
: Stephen Harper (07/20, 6:02PM)
“No, MM, you’re missing the point. Zimmerman put himself in the situation, specifically against the advice of law enforcement. He was the aggressor.”
Well, Stephen, it seems to me that it is you who is missing the point. You are simply repeating the old “stalker” hypothesis – and that’s all it is, a hypothesis – which has never been – and can never be – proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason it can never be proven in a court of law is that it is simply speculation about someone’s motives which, as I have been at pains to point out in this matter, is no better – in fact it is worse – than hearsay “evidence” since it requires the powers of clairvoyance.
But, for the sake of the argument, let’s look at the hypothesis that Zimmerman did put himself in that situation against the advice of law enforcement and so is the aggressor and so should be found guilty of criminal negligence causing death if not outright murder.. Instead of the “stalker” hypothesis, it is not unreasonable to suppose that Zimmerman felt it his duty to protect the gated community as he was being paid to do. To do this he had, at the very least, to keep an eye on Martin and, if need be, to curtail any unlawful activity on his, Martin’s, part. Why is that not a plausible alternative hypothesis to that of his being a “stalker”? In other words, to show that it is not, the prosecution must be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the “stalker” hypothesis was true and the “dutiful guard” hypothesis was false. But, since both would require entering into Zimmerman’s mind they both would require powers of clairvoyance to discover his real intentions and both, of course, are impossible. In either case, whether Zimmerman was the “stalker” or simply the “dutiful guard”, it is all speculation and inadmissible in a court of law.
But let’s go even further for the sake of the argument and say that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin and even confronted him, asking him what he was up to. Does this make him the “aggressor”? Isn’t that Zimmerman’s job as the “dutiful guard”? How does it make sense to call him an “aggressor” in these circumstances? Indeed, isn’t the label “aggressor” itself just further speculation, built squarely upon the previous speculation that Zimmerman was a “stalker”.
But let’s go even further for the sake of the argument and say that Zimmerman was a “stalker” that he was the “aggressor” in this situation. Does that mean that Zimmerman was a murderer? The question then becomes one of determining what happened between Zimmerman’s being the aggressor and the firing of the shot that killed Martin? But the forensic pathologist asserted on oath that Martin’s shirt was hanging down from his chest at the moment the shot was fired. That means that he was on top of Zimmerman and, judging by the cuts and bruises on Zimmerman’s face, beating him severely. Zimmerman fired and pleaded self-defense on the grounds of Florida’s “stand your ground” law. Does that make him a murderer? Surely not and, a fortiori, provides no grounds for supposing that he was even criminally negligent causing death.
The rest of your post is empty rhetoric Stephen and, while amusing, has no place in a court of law.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
P.S. Gosh, I hope that this post is not too long for Basil.
Yes, MM. You’re right. I hope you will forgive me for questioning your authority.
Your humble student,
SHITD
Ass!!!!!!
RSVP
: Stephen Harper (07/21, 9:48AM)
Well Stephen, I don’t think it’s so much my “authority” you were questioning but rather the combination of my ferocious intelligence coupled with my profound insight into the rule of law. A formidable combination indeed and against which very few, if any, have any hope of success!
(9:48AM)
Your second post of the identical time indicates the extent of your inner turmoil, Stephen. You must not be too harsh with yourself. Try and look on the bright side. I’m not sure just where that might be Stephen, but I do wish you good luck and God speed in finding it!
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
P.S. Golly, I do hope that Basil will be pleased with the length of my reply.
/ / / THAT’S SARCASM / / /
I meant Steve’s comment.
Yes, inner turmoil it is. I’m conflicted on whether to have strawberry waffles or eggs Benny, for brunch. Perhaps this might be a job for philosophy. Any suggestions, MM? I do hope to hear from you soon, as I will be leaving post haste, and with the extra “God speed” I shall arrive quite quickly (shaving at least a St. Peter off my usual time).
Strawberry Waffles and Eggs Benny is quite a conundrum, SHITD. I’m having a panic attack just thinking about having to make that kind of a choice and do not envy you. However, I feel that if there is bacon involved in either instance things should be on the up and up.
no contest, bbb bennie and the eggs, sorry
It’s hot out, so I’d choose…
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news_images/h…
Law School eh MM? I knew that you flunked out of pre-law. Called that one a long time ago.
Which raises an interesting question.
Are Lawyers, “Today’s Legitimate Philosophers”?
RSVP
: Stephen Harper (07/21, 12:15PM)
“I’m conflicted on whether to have strawberry waffles or eggs Benny for brunch. Perhaps this might be a job for philosophy. Any suggestions, MM?”
I suppose I’m a bit late to catch you before your brunch, Stephen, but yes, philosophy has universal application as you might suspect and, of course, does have application in this matter as well. I see two aspects of the question.
(1) There is the issue of preference in respect to the two objects of reflection, strawberry waffles or eggs Benny which might be approached by way of the “philosophy of simple preference”. In other words, on what grounds will you resolve the dilemma? This should involve matters touching upon aesthetics, that category of philosophy dealing with matters of taste, harmony, texture and so on. Such matters are, of course, subjective and must be answered by you on an “ad hoc” basis but, nonetheless, with coherent grounds given for the choice.
(2) Then there is the more vexed matter of choice itself. How is one to approach it? Can choice be conceptualized in the abstract or must it have real-world application to be coherent? If the former, just how might one proceed? On what metaphysical grounds, in other words, will the conceptual analysis of “choice” be undertaken? As I am sure you will see Stephen, this requires further reflection and will by no means be a simple matter. But philosophically speaking it is by far the more challenging and interesting of the two alternatives since, if you maintain that the concept of choice must have real-world application, it seems that this puts us back to (1).
I leave the matter in your hands Stephen, and wish you Godspeed.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
zimmerman is apatriot and deserves his freedom.
What can I say RadHonWag…ya can’t argue with stupid!
Shouldn’t this moniker read ‘RadHonWoggie’? – bawhawhawhaw – nailed again, Assie! That creative writing class you took was a major fail.
Kudos to Punky for the initial ID.
THE STALKER OR THE DUTIFUL GUARD?
“But the forensic pathologist asserted on oath that Martin’s shirt was hanging down from his chest at the moment the shot was fired. That means that he was on top of Zimmerman and, judging by the cuts and bruises on Zimmerman’s face, beating him severely.” (Montrealman, 07/21, 8:59AM)
I argued that Zimmerman viewed as the “Dutiful Guard” of the gated community rather than as the “Stalker” of Trevyon Martin was an equally plausible hypothesis to account for the confrontation between the two. Of course, I have no idea if the hypothesis is true any more than those do who support the “Stalker” hypothesis and for the same reason, that neither of us is able to enter Zimmerman’s mind to determine the facts of the matter. But I feel that the account of the forensic pathologist requires greater specification to add weight to the view of Zimmerman as the hapless “Dutiful Guard.”
The pathologist swore under oath that Martin’s shirt was hanging down when the fatal shot was fired thereby indicating that he was on top of Zimmerman at the time, straddling him, and giving him a severe beating such that his death was the probable outcome. But how did the pathologist know that Martin’s shirt was hanging down?
It seems that when a gun is fired into a human body at very close range, from being flush with the body up to two inches away, bits of the victim’s clothing are embedded around the bullet’s entry-hole. Some of the bits of clothing are sometimes even driven into the entry-hole itself. But Martin’s body showed no such bits of embedded material. The entry hole in his chest was clean. This meant that the distance between his chest and his shirt must have been at least four inches and possibly more since Martin had a fruit-juice container in his shirt pocket at the time. The pathologist’s conclusion was inescapable: Martin was on top of Zimmerman at the time the fatal shot was fired.
The pathologist added, irrelevantly in the present case, that Martin would not have died instantly – only a head-shot brings instant death – but would have collapsed about fifteen seconds after being shot through the heart.
So whether Zimmerman was the “Stalker” or the “Dutiful Guard” – both unprovable hypotheses – the circumstances surrounding the actual shooting appear unambiguous.
A pleasure as always,
Cheerio!
typical lefty scum (tt conehead and hoist that turban)
Innocent until proven Guilty is our basic law. Armchair lawyers with little real facts seem to be upset with the jury. Why?? Also Zimmerman is 1/2 latino, no one seems to mention this. Why?? You only convict if you feel beyond reasonable doubt not because mass media wants blood. The FACTS do not prove him guilty. Is he guilty? I have no idea.
RSVP
: William J. Nichols (07/22, 6:11PM)
“Innocent until proven Guilty is our basic law… The FACTS do not prove him guilty. Is he guilty? I have no idea.”
Good morning William. I found your assertions puzzling because the latter do not appear to follow from the first one. Yes, you are absolutely right in respect to your statement that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. It is the cornerstone of our legal system. Entailed in that statement, of course, is the central point that the accused must be PROVEN to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So far, so good. But my puzzlement arises when you go on to say that while the FACTS do not prove him guilty, you have “no idea” as to whether Zimmerman was guilty or not. Why the disconnect between the facts and Zimmerman’s guilt? If the “facts” – well, there’s only one, the fact that Zimmerman shot Martin – did not prove Zimmerman guilty of either murder or manslaughter, on what other grounds could such “proof” conceivably rest? How could you go on to assert that, in respect to his guilt, that you have “no idea?” I think we have come here to the nub of the case. Protests have broken out in the U.S.as I’m sure you are aware. What grounds do the protesters have?
Assuming that the protesters and the “armchair lawyers” are more or less one and the same and passing by your claim that they only have “little real facts” – what can that possibly mean since a fact is either a fact or it is not and so to speak of a “real fact” is simply redundant – you ask why they seem to be upset with the jury. They are upset with the jury, William, because Martin was black and Zimmerman was white (okay, half-Latino but that for present purposes is irrelevant). They were upset because they see this case as just another instance of white oppression of blacks, another instance of a “white rule of law” unjustifiably punishing a member of the black community. Are they justified legally in viewing the case in this fashion? No they are not, simply because there exists no such thing as a “white rule of law” and, in addition, the “stalker” hypothesis is no more provable that the “dutiful guard” hypothesis as I have previously pointed out. But are the protesters justified in any other sense?
I think there can be no doubt, given the history of race relations in the U.S., that their reaction is understandable if not legally justified. Race theorists speak of the “black tax” in the US. Even President Obama spoke of being followed in department stores on the basis of his skin colour. So the “black tax” applies to all blacks regardless of status or station. That is a “real fact” but one that must carry no weight in the exercise of the rule of law, i,e. innocent until proven guilty. In other words, Zimmerman must not be crucified for the previous sins of certain elements in the white U.S. population. It is a hard thing for the black population overcome this perception but it is a necessary thing if the rule of law, the cornerstone not just of our legal system but of our civilization itself, is to be sustained.
Yes, you are correct in your assertion to the effect that “the mass media wants blood” but I think that, if that “hard thing” for the black population might be seen as the obverse of the coin of racial relations in the U.S., then “white guilt” can be seen as its reverse. Understandably, there is a lot of free-floating guilt, particularly among the white liberal class that, more or less, populates the U.S. media. Understandably, they want to “go to confession.” But their white guilt should play no greater role in deciding Zimmerman’s guilt than black perceptions of white oppression. Both must be let go if their society is to avoid Toynbee’s examples of an “arrested civilization.”
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!