While I do applaud your overall protest sentiment — how fucking disrespectful is it to not vacate on November 11th? It’s ONE DAY. Pack up your shit and leave for one day so the vets can have their day. They’ve earned it!
The protestors say they will accommodate as necessary. What fucking bullshit! You shouldn’t’ve even had to been asked to clear out for November 11th!
I really want to support your efforts, but, I’ve lost a ton of respect for your cause at this point.
This irritates me to no end! —Kitty
This article appears in Nov 3-9, 2011.
Give the cops some blow torches and watch them tented fuckers run!
Look at this re the London protests – fucking ridiculous! Such conviction.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8…
Sorry guys, for this awfully written bitch. It was early and I was pissed when I heard this on the radio.
Still pissed, but I probably could’ve been a bit more eloquent!
No problem PK. You put it just fine.
Pretty simple message really PK, no further eloquence required. I agree wholeheartedly for many reasons which should be obvious to the non-oblivitron portion of the population.
Agreed PK
I do not agree… they have as much right to be there as any other…
now with all their shit belongings with them… that’s fucked up.
I think they should pack their shit and get it outta there for the day…
but they should be able to attend parade square just as much as anyone else.
I wonder… that clocktower plays music in winter doesn’t it?
if Mayor K’ster (who’s already dressed like a skeleton for halloween) really wanted to take some initiative, he’d be blasting muzac… Celine Dion…. hell the audio from the Spice channel over that thing day and night.
I don’t think I could take more than 10 minutes of that crap.
Damn right they should move. Have some respect for the people who fought, so you can sit on your ass and smoke your branis out in the parade square. These men and women who we are paying our respects to on November 11, fought and died so you would have the right to protest against your goverment and face no repercussion. So take the damn tents down, stand respectfully along with everyone else in remembrance.
Parade Square is used to honour our veterans on November 11th, zed. If the protesters want to chill at the square that day, they should do so in the name of our vets, and not their cause.
That’s what I meant, and leaving their tents and shit there isn’t honouring them, it’s honouring their cause.
You don’t fuck with November 11th or our vets. They deserve everyone’s respect.
kitty baby, they are going to move, it was decided last week. but they are saying that it will be a hardship. they have respect for the vets. and as such, decided to leave. just that the commons aren’t visible enough to get their point across.
The Kellster even offered them another high profile venue.
No they said they’d ‘accommodate’…. like it’s a big fucking deal.
They stated they wouldn’t be moving, just accommodating.
I wonder what is more disrespectful.
occupying a public place (these people constitute part of the public right?)
OR an elected official sending you off to war, where your chances of dying are exponentially higher ?
What has always fucking bothered me is the ‘newer’ generation of elected officials are still sending our men & women off to ‘war ‘…Ok, Ok police actions. Then getting up in public & being all sad& so sorry your son/daughter die while in service to the country !
What A fucking crock of shit. If people have died so we can be free, the these protestors ARE DOING EXACTLY WHAT THESE PEOPLE FOUGHT & DIED FOR !
So get over yourselfs, from Petty I expect this over the top jump on the bandwagon of outrage…from TTFN, I am shocked.
If you cannot understand that Remembrance Day is for honouring those who served, who fought, who died, and who came home , not the politicians who sent them to war or who created the conditions that made war inevitable, there is no way I can dumb it down enough to explain it to you.
And if you cannot understand that nobody is being asked to abdicate their right to protest or to surrender their freedom of expression, merely to remove their shanty-town so that the 5000+ citizens who typically attend the Halifax Remembrance Day service have free and unobstructed access to the area that surrounds the Cenotaph, then Pretty Kitteh is 100% on target. You ARE a moron. You are entitled to your opinion, but in this case you are missing the point by a country mile.
“Pretty Kitteh is 100% on target. You ARE a moron. “
Told y’all.
IF the protestors were determined to be civilized and sincerely participate in the rememberance day ceremonies, then I say let them stay. The canadian soldiers that died in past wars believe in freedom, and I have no doubt that they would want to extend that to peaceful protestors that are protesting greed.
I agree PK, it’s because of the veterans that they even have the ability to peacefully protest. The aboriginal commission in town was to light their sacred fire in the parade square, but they moved it to Province House so they wouldn’t get mixed up with the squatters. This to me was unacceptable as there was not enough room there for everyone to see, and because of the longer walk (many are elderly), it wasn’t as well attended as it could have been. I know this because I drove many of them to and from the event and was speaking with the organizers.
I get the occupy movement wants change and to be seen, but the commons (esp. near the new oval) would be just as visual, is what the land was meant for, and though it’s not near the bank buildings, they can always move back once New Years celebrations are over.
I don’t think he’s off base at all. If they respectfully wrap up their tents and make room for all to attend then I really don’t see a problem with it. You don’t know these people and are judging them by some preconceived notion of what you think a protest is.The protest so far has been a quiet show of solidarity on some pretty solid shortfallings of our society, and I can’t really put my finger on all the animosity thrown at these people. Is it that you all believe that there will be a drum circle planned for the reading of “Flanders Field”, or maybe a screaming rant on social responsibility during the laying of the wreaths, ending with tear gas granades and a car bombing? Gimme a fucking break!!!
The whole small minded mentality of a protest being some extreme offensive is unfounded and quite frankly a little hard line conservative to me. Maybe we should arrest them all and lock them up with mandatory minimums, and we can house them up in our new super prisons. That’s just what our vets fought for, that right of the “state” dictating what freedoms are to be respected and when. Unfortunately the media (with nothing better to do than to spark up a story), have painted these protesters as villains without even giving them a chance to react.
Agree with everything SHITD said.
I don’t. As a conservative I support the right of the individual to peacefully assemble. It is a socialist idea to ask the protestors to leave.
SOCIALIST?! Bro Tim and Ivan won’t stand for that!
Just pull out their extension cords plugged into the base of many of the lightstands.
Why should we be giving them free electricity to watch movies, play on the internet and charge cell batteries, not to mention the live streaming of their assemblies.
Where are they getting the Wifi connection ? They won’t get any of those freebies on the commons or Victoria Park.
I never said they were extremists and bags of shit, SHITD. But, Parade Square is where the fucking war memorial is in halifax — it wouldn’t hurt them to clear out for ONE FUCKING DAY in honour and respect for our vets.
Leaving their stuff there is taking away from that event.
By not being respectful, they’re just shooting themselves in the foot. I thought they were really trying to make a difference, but by this show of utter disrespect and selfishness, they’ve really shown what their protest really does stand for and I’ve lost a ton of respect for what they’re doing.
Not clearing out for ONE DAY for our vets shows that they really are extremists and they’re making themselves out to be villains — it’s not anyone else who’s doing it at this point.
This will be the litmus test for the Occupy movement in this country. If they do not move for November 11, support for the movement in this city will die. Remembrance Day is a national day of mourning; while citizens have rights that do not require them to observe it with respect, it is only the most callous and selfish of protest groups that fail to pay that tiny price for their freedoms and give the focus to our veterans on that day. Any movement touting putting people before profits, then turning around and not respecting the group that embodied that ideal more than anyone else, would deserve to fail.
The protesters should clear out for the real vets; the people who fought in WW1, WW2 and Korea but not that fake Afghani conflict. SOCIALISM!
“Not clearing out for ONE DAY for our vets shows that they really are extremists and they’re making themselves out to be villains — it’s not anyone else who’s doing it at this point.”
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA EXTREMISTS! Those pot-smoking bongo-bashers are totally right up there with Al Qaeda, the Ergun, and the activists on board the MV Mavi Marmara!
Fuck I love smoking dope and wasting electricity.
Presupposing the protesters don’t appreciate the sacrifices of veterans, or that they’re going to disrupt the services is a bit much, to me.
I agree the veterans have sacrificed an unbelievable amount so that we can live free. I have relatives like my grampie who were veterans of long ago, and young men my age who are my friends, who have aerved more recently.
Instead of going off about “stinky hippies” amd drum circles, and loading all the protesters into a small and easily defined idealogical box, why are we shutting down debate by depersonalising these people and what they are protesting?
A gentleman involved in the Nov9 Holocaust memorial said he is okay with them being there, as long as people are able to still get in the square for their memorial. From what I hear, the protesters aren’t swarming passers-by and not letting them walk through.
The verterans, my grampie and my good friends have sacrificed so these folks can do this. Instead of putting them “out of sight/out of mind”, why not find a middle way, where symbolically, on this day of remembrance for our country’s fight for what’s right, to show it IN ACTION.
maybe ask the protesters remove most of the stuff, so that noone’s walkway is impeded, but set up a smaller protest area, in the corner out of the way(but still visible), because it is DEMOCRACY IN ACTION.
I know my friends here are going to fucking flame me raw for shitting on veterans(and firemen too! You know THEY’RE HEROES, right?). Veterans are people, as are the protesters, as are we. The only thing that should be sacred are OUR RIGHTS. People fuck up. People are human.
But, whatevs, right?
Fuck it.
And extremists would say “fuck you. You can have the Parade Square when you pry it from my cold dead hands, you damned dirty apes!”(sprry, mixing up my Heston speeches).
They’re saying they want to talk about it. Just because they’re not necessarily palatable to you doesn’t make them “extremists”. I require a higher burden of proof, like them performing extreme, violent acts or sumfin’.
And maybe, possibly, in a galaxy far, far away- (okay! I’ll knock it off!), maybe allowing them is a litmus test, of making room for a little current event democracy, at the very least talking it out with them, so both sides can understand each other, instead of just the maypr(that fucking dooshburglar) sending an eviction notice.
Anyone else hear there is going to be a new Austin Powers movie?
HalKell is absolutely correct about this being a litmus test.
If they cannot accede to simple request to get their garbage out of the Grand Parade to accommodate that portion of the 99% who have the RIGHT to honor our veterans on November 11th, then they will have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that this so-called movement is driven by ego, rather than by ideals. Nobody is saying that they are not welcome at the service, but the hobo jungle has to go, Otherwise they will appear to be nothing so much as a pack of self-entitled spoiled brats , railing about the iniquities of capitalism while enjoying it’s benefits.
helkell said it better than I ever could! Great post!!!
What is more disrepectful ?
people aka the ‘public’ occupying a public space on a day you believe other members of the public should be allowed to gather there exclusively.
Or the FACT rememberence day isn’t a National Holiday !
It isn’t a holiday in Ontario, or Quebec. nor is it one in Manitoba, New Brunswick, Nfld or Nova Scotia.
Bars are open, people are working, hell the Legion’s will be packedbefore & after the ‘ceremony’ there’s some bullshit ‘Nova Scotia Remeberence Day act’ where you don’t get paid if you get a day off, or you can opt for a different day off if you are required to work, but I think that only applies to Provincial/Federal employees.
Yep ,good ole rememberence day…a national day of working & drinking…but we’ll all take a 60 second break, if its convenient. But for fucks sakes, don’t stay in a public space & protest, because some of the other members of the public are coming !
a sheeple say’s baaaaaaaaaa & so says the flock.
Wow. I knew you were an asshole, More-on, but on top of the bargain you’re an ungrateful, selfish twat. I’m sure your mother would be proud.
*slow clap*
http://nslegislature.ca/legc/statutes/reme…
rabblerabblerabble.
This should be a South Park episode.
You people are fucking ridiculous, litmus tests??? It’s not even November for fuck sakes, it’s a moot point until the time arrives and they prove themselves to be undesirables. All this slinging of dirty hippy, and remove their garbage from parade square, is just uneducated rhetoric spouted by media fueled anger. How to jump on the bandwagon before it even leaves the station.
How many other services are going on around HRM on November 11th? I’m sure that even if they decide not to abandon their “Occupation” for the ceremony, there will be many others people can attend with the same intended purpose. I firmly believe there will be some sort of concession on their part to allow for maximum attendance for the general public.
I bet that if this cause had some direct consequences in your lives, I bet your doughy fists would be raised in effigy, shouting the definition of the word “occupy” and how it demeans your cause by being kicked out or removed from the spot of occupation (thus making the occupation a failure). I’m also guessing that about half of you people (probably the loudest ones), will become hypocrits and not attend the ceremony anyway (as I’m sure that this not being a stat holiday, some of us will have to work, which I’m not sure, but it seems more disrespectful than a bunch of people involved in a protest attending a remembrance ceremony), and probably still aren’t wearing your poppies like the true respectful rememberace enthusiasts you claim to be.
Well Mr. Harper/Devil, personally speaking, I’ve been attending Remembrance Day services in Halifax/Dartmouth since 1981. Even the ones that have fallen on Saturdays and Sundays I’m not a serviceman, nor a veteran, just an army brat, but I’ve got got a real good idea of what military service means; the toll it takes and the rewards it offers. For me, Remembrance Day isn’t just one day of the year, the shadow of the Cenotaph falls on all 365. I’ve seen all manner of things at Remebrance Day ceremonies. I’ve seen the crowd applaud loudly as the Legion contingent march in and march out. I’ve seen the crowd part like the Red Sea to accomodate veterans with walkers or in wheelchairs or on scooters. I’ve seen people ask veteran’s permission to shake their hands. I’ve seen people make room for elderly atendees who have brought their own lawn chairs and let them sit up front. I’ve never once felt the need to bring a tent, a bongo drum or a laptop. If after the service, I choose to take my wife to a restaurant for lunch, or go for a walk in the woods or along the waterfront I see no hypocrisy in that. Because the gift that our veterans have given me is there, all the time. And so is my gratitude.
I don’t need the media to tell me how much disdain the Occupy crowd are worth. I’ve seen nothing that surprises or shocks. The usual suspects blaming the usual suspects. And by their own admission, no answers. Just a bunch of talkers with the colossal hubris to actually compare themselves to the Tunisians, the Egyptians, the Syrians. And when some N.S.G.E.U. leader shows up to stick her snout in the trough and harp about greed and power without accountability, I sure as hell do not need the media to tell me to fall down laughing.
I’ll let your own words be the most fitting epitaph for Occupy NS.
“if this cause had some direct consequences in your lives”
Its doesn’t. It’s just an exercise in mutual masturbation.
See you on Friday.
They’re getting free power? I thought they were just using generators… it’s all coming together now. That’s why they’re having a hard time deciding whether to leave or not.
Perhaps it comes down to the fact that my parents don’t suck and actually taught me the concept of respect or perhaps it’s the fact that my dad’s a vietnam vet and I’ve seen the toll that kind of thing can take on a person. Either way, all y’all who clearly have no respect for the meaning of Remembrance day can suck it.
Gotta love how the Allies snuck Nazi scientists and engineers out of Germany following World War 2 because their knowledge and technology was too valuable to give away.
I agree PK. I don’t see how they can possibly by indecisive about whether to move or not… if I was down there, it wouldn’t even be a debate! I went to the war museum in Ottawa a couple years ago and there were some people there picketing something, preventing my friend from parking at the museum! I couldn’t even figure out what they were protesting, they were all French but they got a murderous look in their eyes when we tried to park our car and wouldn’t let us, like they physically stood in the way so we had to park down the street. It made me sick and I let them know.
No arguments from me on that one. D-B. The fact that a lot of German scientific and engineering know-how, as well as industrial plant went East doesn’t excuse the blind eye turned towards people like Von Braun. He knew who was building his rockets at DORA and the conditions they lived in. At least Sergei Korolev spent time in the Gulag and then, once war broke out in softer regime camps for skilled scientists.
Vietnam vet petty ?…are you talking about the American War ?
If you had a clue (& I seriously doubt you have a click) you’d know the war in Vietnam is called the American War, by the citizens of that country. Another war the Americans started…Canada wasn’t officially in it, although have a friend who was there during the murderous rampage of the USofA.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/vietnam.h…
Go to Vietnam today & you will see for yourself that these people weren’t being used by the commies they were being used period. So were all the Canadian’s who were used as cannon fodder in the WW1 & WW2 fiasco’s.
WHen I see a war memorial I see a testiment to human greed & control by the elite & human stupidity by the masses.
I certainly see nothing honorable or worthy of wasting my time with. All the brainwashed Government boot licking assholes want to gather at your memorial, I’ll be at the bar….where all the veterans will be as well.
“Naturally the common people don’t want war:Neither in Russia, nor England, nor for that matter Germany. That is understood. But, after all IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine policy & it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a facist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. THAT IS EASY.
All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism & exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country ” -Herman Goering ,1945
THose who learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it.
IF the politicians told us we were in danger & we needed to go to war, Petty Kat would be leading the fucking charge & screaming how unpatriotic I am when I would be advising caution & the stupidity of war isn’t just the act of war…its the people who participate. -More , 2011
I hope it snows and they all die of hypothermia. They’ve accomplished nothing in this protest. On one good note, at least employers know who not to hire.
Oh More-on. The stupid just shows more and more with every word you type.
a) Of course I know vietnam wasn’t a canadian war — but my father, was, nonetheless, drafted into the American Army and served time in Vietnam.
b) my example, if you could comprehend a basic idea is that vets in any war don’t really see their time in combat as fun and exciting and a jolly good time. I was using that example of how someone who has been in a combat situation has been affected. My father doesn’t claim to be a canadian vet and doesn’t feel entitled to be ‘honoured’ on canada’s nov 11th celebrations. And actually, he doesn’t talk about it. Ever. He’ll talk about his time in the army, but when people ask if he went overseas, he always says no. Further, war movies are generally not watched while my dad is home (even if he’s in a different room) because it’s too upsetting and my mom and I have enough respect as human beings to comply with this basic act of decency.
If you weren’t such a complete tool, you would’ve probably had some indication that that’s what I was trying to get across.
PS: the way the vietnam vets were treated when they got home was disgusting. Most of them were drafted and had no choice — my father could’ve high tailed it back to canada and dodged, but he didn’t, as many actual american citizens did. So you can suck my ass, and my father’s ass too, you cock sucking prick.
“I hope it snows and they all die of hypothermia. They’ve accomplished nothing in this protest. On one good note, at least employers know who not to hire.”
I hope the rapture comes and you all die of going to Hell.
Cut off the power to the Lights in Grand Parade. This morning I saw 5 cords plugged into the lights and the flea partiers are stealing.
Did Kelly or Butts approve the use increasing HRM power bills ?
Peaceful assembly does not mean residency and occupation.
And stop the dogs digging holes in the ground.
Yeah, cut the power and blast Nickleback all day, that’ll get rid of them!
You inhuman monster!
Petty get a ladder …most of what I write at you goes way over your head.
joeblow, you mentioned it’s starting to get a bit fragrant down there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmdYRyuN28
Vonce zee rockets go up
Who cares where zey come down?
Dat’s not mien department
Says Werner Von Braun
i haven’t heard a peep from the businesses in the area
LOL – Tom Lehrer For.The.Win.
“I Aim At The Stars” – (but sometimes hit London)
The Freaky candy shoppe must be making money hand over fist. >; )
I must confess, the last 2 weekends have been pretty good, traffic wise.
Occupy Chelsea – the plebs fight against rampant capitalism :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/…
i was in the falklands war, and no, i do not consider myself a vet. just a poor schmo, that had to obey the directives, of the higher ups. any one can be a vet, really. all you had to do, is fire one shot.
am i disrespectful of the day, no. but i choose not to lanquish in sorrow either. these guys got a royal fucking, a lot of good people died, for other big heade assholes ideals, and yes, mistakes.
how many people have to die, because two assholes can’t solve their problems, with out bringing a whole fucking country into it. it’s almost like the my brother can whip your brother attitude, and brother knows fuck all of what’s going on, til very last minute.
i hate seeing people die, needlessly, and in wars or any type of combat moreso.and yet, our elected officials, constantly send these poor fucks out, because they are scared as fuck to go themselves.
next time canada gets sucked into another war, that is not ours from the start, let our p.m., and the other big fucking shots, go in and lead the way. never mind sitting in a chair, a thousand plus miles away. get the fuck in there first, assholes.
“Petty get a ladder …most of what I write at you goes way over your head.”
Oooh you got me!
The “I’m rubber and you’re glue” argument wins EVERY SINGLE TIME.
roflz.
just took a loop around the grand parade. looked klean and tidy, but the tents do take up a far amount of room
And you didn’t pop in for a quick viz? Grrrrrrrrrr. (joshin’ >: )
i thought about it, i was grub shopping with me ma. i’ve tried to explain the summits and the board, she thinks were bizarre but not dangerous^^
Hay, our beloved Nerdboy was just in. He says Hello>: )
what’s the word, in that part of the world?
Been a pretty good day. We misplaced out calculator so I was giving people tax exemptions because – Math? – get real, Grrrrl. Agent 195 found this vital objet and so he got the family discount, after me embarrassing myself trying to do mental arithmetic.
Send in the Westboro Baptist Church
Those rooster lollipops can empty the “Humanure” receptacles. Give Phelps the shovel.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! George didn’t know that Kramer could do that!
HAHAHA Painy! My mom thinks we’re bizarre too!
Though, she *is* convinced some of us *are* dangerous. LOLZ.
I had a great day yesterday too — flu shot, craft show at sportsplex, fabric store shopping (two stores!), and a great night’s sleep. A++ weekend.
But NOW I’ve got little miss diva kitteh bitching at me for food. I’ve gotta go comply or she’ll beat me up. If no one hears from me in the next 24-48 hours, someone call 911. Bitch’s got a great left hook. 😛
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.…
I don’t think that many of you posters on here truly understand the gravity of the situation.
If you did, then you would NOT be so adamant about the protesters “getting the fuck out!!”
It’s tough when most of the media that we rely on is pretty silent about what is actually happening to the south of us, particularly as many would argue that the systems in place in the U.S. are the root of the hardships around the world. And when many of us don’t realize how serious the situation is around the world (thanks, media for whitewashing everything and distracting people with the Karadashians et al)
Question: isn’t freedom of speech and freedom of assembly a right that is protected in the Canadian Charter of Rights & Freedoms?
The answer is yes.
Are the protesters harming anyone? No.
In the US, have the police been harming anyone? Yes.
In Canada, have the police been harming anyone? I don’t know.
It’s considered assault if you grab a police officer’s arm or push them, etc. But it’s ok for the police to do the same thing to peaceful protesters, because they don’t like what they’re protesting about. It’s ok for them to assault protesters (read about Scott Olson) and then arrest protesters for exercising the very same rights that are protected under the US constitution.
We are heading in the same direction here in Canada, where across the nation cities are trying to push out the protesters (Edmonton, for example).
If you doubt this, do some research (it won’t take long, just jump on aljazeera, the NY Times, Youtube, etc.)
When did the protesters set up camp here in Hfx? I believe it was around Oct 15.
When is Remembrance Day? Nov 11.
So the protesters have been in place for a few weeks now, but they should “move their shit and get out!”
just because they *may* interfere with an annual ceremony.
I support our veterans, I really do. Even if I disagree with a conflict from time to time, they’re not to blame, they’re just doing their job and are often brave beyond imagination.
But that doesn’t mean that it’s ok to throw the protesters out because it might inconvenience some people, because it might make some people uncomfortable.
The veterans fought to protect our basic rights & freedoms, which are becoming more and more eroded, just like our neighbours to the south. Would they not then support the protesters right to assemble for a cause they believe so strongly in?
I’m sorry that so many of you feel it is disrespectful for the protesters to even consider staying in Grand Parade.
But do you know how ridiculous it is to say to a protester, “Oh, excuse me, I want to enjoy this park/ceremony/whatever and you’re ruining it for me. Could you please go elsewhere (where you won’t be in anyone’s way and where the public can ignore you and thereby ignore your cause)?”
Because that’s what you’re asking when you say that they need to get out.
So I’m sorry if you’d like to ignore what is happening around the world for a little longer and enjoy a false sense of security, but you need to WAKE UP!!!!!!
I’m not one for conspiracy theories or alarmist views, but we are on the cusp of something huge here. All around the globe, people are pissed off. Before this is over there will be a new world order.
You need to start paying attention and quit with the whining about protesters.
So exactly what are these protesters changing? So any violence during a demonstration/strike is always the fault of the police is that it? Freedom of Speech truly is NOT protected in the Charter of Rights. If it were so people would not be charged for denial of the Holocaust or publishing racist propoganda, or using foul language and ranting and raving in public. There are restrictions on our freedoms. I wonder if people would say let them stay if the protesters were say Neo-Nazis or KKK.
WHO IS A “VETERAN?” UNPACKING THE CONCEPT
While most commenters have dumped on the Occupiers as jobless bongo-playing deadbeats, few if any have put the concept of the Veteran under the magnifying glass. Once this is done it will be obvious that, to paraphrase George Orwell, “All Veterans are equal but some Veterans are more equal than others.”
Assuming that the definition of a Canadian war Veteran is someone who served in Canada’s armed forces, the categories of analysis, broadly speaking, are: (a) Canada’s Wars; (b) The Motivation for Serving.
(a) Canada’s Wars: Any war fought before 1939 cannot be considered “Canada”s” war. The vast majority of soldiers in the First War were from Britain and, in effect, were fighting for Blighty and only by extension could they be said to be fighting for Canada. Certainly theatres such as Vietnam and The Falklands could not be considered Canada’s wars. Then there is the “serving/fighting” distinction: Could a Blimp in Ottawa, for example, be considered a “Veteran” in the same way as an infantryman fighting at Ortona or the Scheldt Estuary? Further, there is the standing of the “Zombies,” those who agreed to be conscripted on condition that they did not serve overseas. Most were French-Canadians who were not cowards but who considered World War I or II their war.
(b) The Motivation for Serving: Should the conscript be considered as the equal of the idealistic patriot? In fact, were there any idealistic patriots? The principal motivation, it seems, was not to crush Hitler in World War II but to escape “riding the rods” looking for work during the Depression. Should motivation for serving count at all?
This is not an attempt to discredit the Veterans or the Remembrance Day ceremonies. It’s just an attempt to balance the scales in respect to those who would demonize the Occupiers. Perhaps their enemy is not as obvious as Hitler but, with the plutocratic control of the economy and the concurrent spread of globalization, the end result may not be all that different.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Bro Tim:
your rights (to free speech, etc.) end where mine begin.
That is why there are laws against hate speech.
It’s not so difficult a concept to comprehend, is it?
Bro Time:
“What exactly are these protesters changing?”
According to you, absolutely nothing. According to many others, everything.
Read some history. Revolutions do not happen overnight.
“So any violence during a demonstration/strike is always the fault of the police is that it?”
Right. And that’s exactly what I was saying…..
Supposedly, you learnt to read & comprehend what you were reading in elementary school, jr. high, and high school.
Your comments make me think that you didn’t quite take advantage of this free education.
Have you got any more?
Petty, you might want to see a scientist or two…I believe your head my be denser than any other previously discovered known material !
Your ‘bitch’ is to have citizens of Canada who are protesting basicly the Greedy Banking Cartels theft of assets of every working man woman on the planet.
Evacuate a public space…so other citizens of Canada may participate in a ceremony to honour those who have given us the ability to protest in the first place (who the Protesters just may also want to honour…but you are insisting they have to go)
If you are unable to see the contradiction in your ridiculous bitch… let me again point it out to you…
(maybe have another bitch summit & some of the more intelligent bitchers here can help you to understand it.)
“Your ‘bitch’ is to have citizens of Canada who are protesting basicly the Greedy Banking Cartels theft of assets of every working man woman on the planet.
Evacuate a public space…so other citizens of Canada may participate in a ceremony to honour those who have given us the ability to protest in the first place (who the Protesters just may also want to honour…but you are insisting they have to go)”
Well said.
MM:
I don’t always agree with your posts (often you’re waxing about one thing or another that’s either over my head or below my interest) but I think what you’ve written is interesting, and certainly valid.
We never really openly discuss such things.
And I’ve gotta point out that I remember all too well growing up in school and learning about the various World Wars and other atrocities and the calls for “Never again”, “You’ve gotta stand up for what’s right”, and “Stand up for what you believe in”, etc.
That’s all these protesters are trying to do.
What’s so wrong about that?
MM,
You are naive about Canada’s freedom to assemble. This right is violated every time a union is served with ‘cease and disist’ orders. The unions have challenged the supreme court, and the ruling was a typical jackass liberal ruling. you what they said? They said that individuals have the right to assembly but a group or an organization is not an individual, so therefore it is totally legal to tell a group of people to vacate an area.
This ‘group’ doesn’t have the right to assemble and stay assembled except by the good graces of the community.
Remember remember the fifth of November…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94veoCPi-y8…
GV:
really interesting. I knew that protesters rights have been circumvented in the past, but didn’t realize on what grounds.
So what they’re saying is essentially groups of people are not people….but corporations are? Maybe I’m mistaken and it’s only in the U.S. that corporations are considered people, not in Canada.
Anyone?
Ok, maybe the ‘corporations are considered people’ isn’t quite right.
Nonetheless, that’s absolute bullshit. Then at what point does a bunch of individuals become not individuals but a group? 3? 10? 100?
Seems like they’re ignoring the spirit of the law in favour of the letter. That way they can get around individual rights.
RSVPs
Correction: Re; The “Zombies:” The sentence should read, “Most were French-Canadians who were not cowards but who considered WW I or WW II NOT their war.”
: Kelifax (Oct. 30, 1:40PM) – Nothing’s wrong with that at all, Kelifax.
: Great Value (1:50PM) – I guess I’m not only naive, GV, but I’m also confused. I thought I was talking about the concept of the “Veteran” and not who the Supremes considered an “individual.” (By the way, corporations are considered “individuals” in law for purposes of litigation, i.e. they can be sued in a court of law. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise – i.e. cite the relevant ruling of the Supreme Court – the designation has nothing to do with the dispersal of crowds. In any case, your observation was totally irrelevant to my post. Back to the drawing board GV. Be careful or I’ll have to spank you again.)
: Balls (1:50PM) – The 5th. of November? Missed the message. It’s time they got a new lighting technician for that clip. Through a glass darkly, and all that.
: Kelifax (3:04PM) – Corporations are legally considered “individuals” in Canada. See my post above to GV.
For an interesting take on the concentration of global capital and my reference to Hitler in my last sentence, see Janet Daley’s piece “This Was The Week That European Democracy Died” in the Comment section of today’s London Sunday Telegraph.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
the zombie costume is number one this year, keep an eye out for the real ones^^i prefer the flathead srewdriver. walking dead fans know what i mean
…sorry balls, that is an often overlooked film, love hugo’s voice. nice to see you, as always
MM, your rebuttal is worthless because it does not matter whether you are correct or wrong about corporations. In fact, I am actually willing to agree with you that a corporation – for the most part – is treated like an individual.
So why is your rebuttal worthless? The rights of a corporation are irrelevant – in the way that you are attempting to use it – because 1) labour unions aren’t corporations, and 2) nor are the protesters.
we’re a corporation of two, thinking of becoming a co-op
Hmm….I just fell out of my chair over the extreme irony that this OCCUPY movement might grow so popular that they will – someday – incorporate. ROTFLMAO!!!
oh dear, irony…as long as there’s no sarcasm, i’m not big on that
I’m really kind of surprised at the amount of people on here who just don’t get it. The grand parade is public property. As long as the occupiers do not disrupt anyone else using the space (including the Nov 11 crowd) there is no reason whatsoever they should have to move. That said, they should be paying for whatever electric power they use, or someone should pull the plug.
That’s the thing though isn’t it Floyd. Can the protestors accomodate the Veterans without disrupting the ceremonies? I’m not sure the Grand Parade is large enough to swing that. I support both the Occupiers and the Veterans but I think the Occupiers should accomodate the Veterans for Remembrance Day.
GV, if the Occupiers become a corporation (thus an individual) they can stay without the good graces of the community. I don’t if that is legally correct or not but it does have irony coming and going.
What constitutes as “disrupting’ the ceremonies? Is the mere existance of the tents a disruption?
GV, in a word yes. Those tents take up a lot of room prohibiting some people from attending as there is not enough room. No one is telling the protesters they can’t attend. They are telling them to remove their tents so others can take part in ceremonies that are almost 100 years old. It’s called common decency, something that some people have seemed to forgotten.
I think that the number of people who think that the hobo jungle is not going to have a negative impact on the Remembrance Day Service have never actually been to one. Even in the foulest weather the Grand Parade is full of participants, with spectators lined up on the sidewalks, both above and below. Now you do the math. How many people can stand, even if just for an hour and a half in the space occupied by just one of the tents. A public space – yes. A public campground – not on your life. If the Occupy children insist on keeping their shanty town intact they are denying access to the Service and violating the rights of participants just as much as if they attempted to blockade the entrances. And that isn’t right. I don’t give a damn how noble you think your cause is. That is not right.
I’ve never been to the ceremony to the Grand Parade but I’ve been to the Grand Parade. I do go to the ceremonies here in Windsor and that number of people would fill the Grand Parade. So, yes, any tents would be a disruption. Again, it remains to be seen if the Occupiers move, I don’t believe they have one person speaking for them so it’s hard to nail that down. Until then, we don’t need to get our knickers in a knot.
we usually go to the sailor’s memorial in ppp, but it’s sometimes too much walking/standing for ma and pa
RSVPs
: Paingirl (Oct. 30, 4:46PM) – I’m sure you’ll look smashing in your Zombie costume. You can dance and sing, and even clap your hands.
: Great Value (5:30PM & 6:55PM) – I’ve decided not to spank you GV. Instead two nice men in white coats will help you into the back of their van and they will take you to a safe place. You must not worry about this anymore.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
i’m the same thing every year monsieur http://thenakedhero.com/wp-content/uploads…
Sorry MM I gotta dissagree with you on a couple points, but I will agree with your support for the occupy movement, and why they should not be tear gassed out of parade square.
1st, how do we discern when a war is “ours”? Does it have to be on Canadian soil? Does it have to directly relate to only Canadian people/interests? I don’t believe so. If “we”, as a member of NATO, enter into any conflict, that, by definition makes it a “Canadian” conflict. By being a member of NATO, we are no longer a stand alone country with only our interests to defend.
2nd, how would a person join the military in order to become a patriot? By your definition they would have to be independently wealthy and join out of patriotism and refuse a “paycheque” for their services. What possible bearing could being conscribed into military service during a time of war have on being patriotic or unpatriotic? Unpatriotic would be to shirk on your duties as a Canadian and be a draft dodger.
Brotim, just a question you might see fit to answer. Why does a police presence always seem to facilitate some degree of violence at an otherwise peaceful protest? Could it be an entightled sense of authority crossed with a “police mob mentality”, where the common sentiment among police officers is “we are the law”, which destroys your ability to see anything but a black and white view of right and wrong? Your job is to “protect and serve”, that means you are to protect the general public, whom protesters are a member of, against violations of their rights not just the rights you pick and choose for them, but all their rights. Just because a group of people dissagree with something doesn’t give the police the right to pass judgement and insight violence as a way to disperse a crowd, and the testosterone fueled anarchy that the Toronto police insighted at the G-7 was deplorable at best, we fought for a democracy and we’re going to fight to keep it.
RSVPs
: Stephen Harper (Oct.31, 12:13PM) – Yes, I did and do agree with the Occupy Halifax movement – I see they are now going to vacate the Parade Grounds for November 11 so that issue has been laid to rest – but I also supported the sanctity of Remembrance Day services. The problem is that it wasn’t a “zero sum game” in which one side was clearly right and won the game and the other clearly wrong and lost the game. That’s what made it so difficult to decide. By their accomodating the Remembrance Day services however, I think the Occupy Halifax movement won a lot of friends who were previously either sitting on the fence or, in fact, were decidedly opposed.
As far as your two questions were concerned, there seems to have been some miscommunication. The way one determines whether a war is Canadian or not I thought was pretty uncontentious. A war is a Canadian war if the Canadian government declares it is – whether individually or in concert with treaty members (i.e., NATO) and the soldiers are Canadian citizens. (I won’t go into the question of the “just war” which, at least since 1939 has not been a factor.) That is the reason I questioned the validity of the First World War as a Canadian war, to say nothing of the validity of the First World War as such (which, in fact, I think was totally invalid). Whether the war was “fought on Canadian soil” or was “directly related to Canada’s interests” were not, at least for me, deciding factors. In the case of the former, it is difficult to see how it could NOT be a Canadian war (excluding the War of 1812 which WAS fought on Canadian soil but not mainly by Canadian soldiers) and in the case of the latter it comes down to what is to be understood by “directly.” I would say the Afghanistan War satisfied the conditions of being “directly” related to Canada’s interests even though it is only an extended sense of the term.
As far as the second question is concerned, I think you have it backwards. I was never suggesting a person joins the military in order to become a patriot which seems incoherent to me. My point was that, understandably, very few people joined the military purely in terms of a rush of patriotic emotion. Usually it’s getting three squares a day and a roof over one’s head as in the case of the Depression Years (i.e., 1939), getting a trade, or seeing the world but not simply a matter of patriotic pride itself. Even at the top end of the military scale other motives play a role. Although I didn’t mention it, I was thinking of the top Canadian World War II ace “Buzz” Beurling (a good Montreal boy from “The Point” by the way) who had more the mentality of an old style quick-draw gunfighter than a burning patriot.
Anyway, nice talking.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51tPaUfNkiL.…
About WW2, both of my Grandfathers were denied military service, So were a couple of my Greatuncles, the only one from my family who served was my great Grandfather, he was a cook when the war broke out & served in the merchant navy supplying Britian.
THe reason my other family members were not allowed to serve, is because they were all involved in coal mining, as miners (one grandfather was an mine electrician)
Seems the need for coal at that time made them more important to the war effort in the mines, than as cannon fodder. I do not have any proof of this claim, except both of my Grandfathers told me, when they went to sign up, they were given 2 choices, go back to the coal mine(s) or go to jail.
They both went back the ‘pit’ & they both joined the militia….& took turns watching the waters off the Coast of Cape breton, in the Glace Bay, Lingan, New Waterford area. Which if you keep going along the Coast past Dominion, you come to Sydney Harbour….that’s the little I can remember about it.
This link explains the situation in Great Britain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boy
In Canada, coal mining was considered a “Reserved Occupation” Miners were exempt from conscription but I can find nothing about them being forbidden to enlist. It probably varied from year to year and area to area. When war broke out we were caught flat-footed and simply did not possess the infrastructure to handle the flood of volunteers so it isn’t implausible that restrictions were put in place to keep trained workers in essential industries until they could be replaced by people who were otherwise unfit for military service.