Halifax councillors Dawn Sloane and Bill Karsten came tete-to-tete at Tuesday’s council meeting. Sloane had been recognized to speak by mayor Peter Kelly, and was explaining her views on a relatively mundane issue, sidewalk sweepers, when Karsten, as he often does, interrupted her with asides and mumblings.
“Do you mind? I am talking; I’m sick and tired of you doing that,” said Sloane angrily. When Kelly tried to get the discussion back on track, Sloane explained further: “Your Worship, every time you turn around, councillor Karsten has something to say, and he does it only when women stand up—I’m sick and tired of it.”
Karsten in turn objected to that characterization. “Your Worship, I would kindly ask the councillor [Sloane] to retract that, because that’s three times, Your Worship—I’m 61 years of age, OK? I have never in my life had disrespect for women, and this is three times that the councillor and another councillor have propagated that and so help me God, I will not tolerate that, because it’s my reputation at stake, my good name at stake, and I will not have councillors belittling my good name in front of myself, the viewing audience and the public.”
Sloane refused to retract the statement, and Karsten insisted he wouldn’t let the issue die, but by the end of the meeting neither mentioned it again.
Readers can find a recording of the conflict up above the headline of this post, and a transcript of the entire exchange after the jump, and my observations after that.
The transcript follows:
Sloane: Do you mind? I am talking. I’m sick and tired of you doing that.
Your worship, everytime you turn around, councillor Karsten has something to say, and he does it only when women stand up—I’m sick and tired of it.Karsten: Point of personal privilege. Your worship, I was whispering to you, that I believe the councillor was mistaken with the sidewalk sweeping machines that we’ve purchased over the last few years. My pooint of privilege, Your Worship, I would kindly ask the councillor to retract that, because that’s three times, Your Worship—I’m 61 years of age, OK? I have never in my life had disrespect for women, and this is three times that the councillor and another councillor have propagated that and so help me God, I will not tolerate that, because it’s my reputation at stake, my good name at stake, and I will not have councillors belittling my good name in front of myself, the viewing audience and the public. So, Your Worship, if the councillor has a particular thing—because, when it comes to misstatements, yes, there’s no doubt, Your Worship, that I am one that likes to follow detail. My only point of whispering to you, not to the councillor, was to clarify that issue. Whether the councillor standing was a male or a female has no issue on my comment.
Sloane: I’m not going to apologize, because he does it constantly. Until he stops mumbling and distracting people when we’re actually trying to do work here, I can not apologize. I will not apologize….
Unfortunately, this happens constantly at every meeting, and it’s not just me, it’s other individuals—I can hear him again, so Your Worship—when people are at the mic, people are supposed to be able to speak, and we’re not supposed to be disrupted, or interrupted, or have someone distracting them. That’s making it very difficult to get your point across, when you have that going on.Peter Kelly: On this issue of gender is his point on privilege. On the other issue, he does admit he did speak out, so I guess
Sloane: No he doesn’t. He does it constantly, Your Worship, and until he’s chastised for doing it, I am not apologizing.
Kartsten: Your Worship, my final thought would be, it’s not up to this councillor to chastise me. Your Worship, I will speak to you in chambers and I’d ask the councillor to be there, but I will, at the end of the day, get my apology.
Sloane: No you won’t.
My thoughts: I’ve been attending council meetings for over three years. I go to council meetings, as opposed to watching them on TV, because you can see and hear things in person that the television doesn’t convey. I can say without hesitation that Karsten is indeed the most disruptive of councillors, by far, offering up a barrage of secondary commentary, asides, interruptions, sighs and the like, speaking over and under the councillor recognized to speak by the chair. And yes, this behaviour is most noticeable when councillors Sue Uteck and Dawn Sloane speak. Uteck and Sloane are the most outspoken and most vocal of the female councillors, and both have objected, in open meeting, to Karsten’s interruptions.
Is Karsten sexist? Well, it’s impossible to read someone else’s soul, but I’d argue that this is exactly the kind of situation that feminists allude to when talking about sexism. Karsten’s counter to the sexism charge is, essentially, “I don’t interrupt you because you’re a woman; I interrupt you because you’re an idiot.” It’s this total disregard, the discounting, the refusal to give an honest and respectful hearing to, which riles women, and rightly so, in my view. It calls for deep reflection on the part of men, an openness to criticism, rather than an immediate demand for apology for an affront that men can’t even see they’ve committed.
I should add that Karsten’s claim that he was merely “whispering” to Kelly is laughable. Karsten sits clear across the room from Kelly, with Sloane a closer distance to both; it’s impossible for Kelly to be able to hear anything Karsten says without Sloane being able to hear it more clearly. Any “whispering” to Kelly is necessarily disruptive to Sloane.
Well, the soiled laundry is aired. We can only hope that this is a learning experience.
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This article appears in Jun 30 – Jul 6, 2011.
The television also doesn’t convey the fact that Sloane often tweets during council meetings, often times with Bousquet and his Twitter lackies, perhaps even when Karsten is speaking, which is also disrespectful and begs the question whether Bousquet should judge any of it.
Tweeting does not interrupt the speaker who has the floor of Council, so these are not the same at all.
The Mayor, as chair and presiding officer of Council, should stop the cross talk. That is clearly his job to do.
I’m inclined to take the “I interrupt you because you’re an idiot” argument at face value because in the words of that deadest of Dead White Male languages “Res Ipsa Loquiter” Does it strike anybody else as suspicious that the 2 biggest media-divas on council are prepping the ground for a run at the mayoralty by manufacturing a faux-sexism issue. Methinks we’ll be hearing the phrase “Old Boy’s Network” a lot in the next 18 months.
I wasn’t there so who knows. I do realize that Halifax is still very much old-school when it comes to women in positions of authority. But, this could also be framework being set in place because they know council is going to be reduced. Even as a liberated woman, although I’m not sure about the tweeting, I think these two ladies definitely do way too much chirpping!
I wasn’t there so who knows. I do realize that Halifax is still very much old-school when it comes to women in positions of authority. But, this could also be framework being set in place because they know council is going to be reduced. Even as a liberated woman however, these ladies do more chirpping than tweeting.
Ivan I so agree with you….Tim B was heard yesterday with Rick Howe referring to these two women as strong…It is a word that connotes: ethical, intelligent, with integrity and a higher place on the evolutionary scale…neither fit that bill….the two loud mouths are upset that they cannot continue with their attention seeking drama and need to bore others. I heard that Dawn never found a mic she didnot like….Having said that minor side chats are permitted but is this is a continuing issue then Bill just has bad manners all around. The fact that it is only being called a sexist issue now is most amusing. I would opt for they are idiots and not because they are women.If Bill has cut off one male there goes their faux victimology once again. Twitting while others are speaking is just as rude…. in fact it is down right sneaky and shows you are not listening.
Mayor Kelly needs to learn how to chair a meeting.
It never should have gotten to this point. What a clown.
When I hear Sloane, Uteck, Kelly, Dexter, et al, I thank God for the person who invented the mute button.
I Think Tim deserves a medal for attending this yawnfest for 3 years, we could send that little Darling Omar Khadr in his place, then the human rights wankers will call that cruel and unusual punishment.
Seriously, at $72,000 per year this is the best these imbeciles can find to debate about?
We have far more serious issues that need dealing with to at least haul out the defibrolator to jump start any progress in this moribund corpse of a “so called” city. Gun crime is rampant, developers are being ground to a standstill by red tape, renewal energy sources are deferred, transportation problems, bus improvements – the list goes on.
We have 23 pieces of driftwood sitting in council, chaired by a person whose credibility is lower than whale jism.
“lower than whale jism” – Heh Heh Heh. >: )
From the evidence presented, it’s obvious that Mayor Kelly (if he is the indispensable chairperson that he claims to be) isn’t doing his job in chairing council meetings.
Bill Karsten should shut up when others have the floor. Don’t these folks get a copy of Roberts Rules of Order when they’re elected?
If Karsten’s disruptions occur most frequently when female councilors have the floor, then he needs to be called out on it and it looks like this is exactly what Sloane did.
Great article. It’s been going on for years and it’s nice to see it ‘called out’. Seems Uteck and Sloane are damned if they do and damned if they don’t by some commenters – anything they do to try to end this classic control move by Karsten is self serving, and if they don’t try to end it they’re blown off in Council.
I disagree that this is a minor issue when there are so many ‘important’ issues. This attitude and belief in entitlement by the good old boys is exactly why the big issues go off the rails.
But whale jism is so much more useful.
Continued embarrassment on council, first drunks, then an underhanded scheming major and now self loving loudmouths like Karsten. I have watched him, he shoots his mouth off to hear himself talk, Steve if you are 61, go fishing and leave the council seat to someone who can add value.