The following is a transcript of an interview I had with Francesca Rogier last week. Rogier is the owner of Brindi, who has been the subject of a two-year court battle between Rogier and the Halifax Regional Municipality. For background on the case, see Lezlie Lowe’s profile of Rogier.
Tim Bousquet: What’s going on with your case?
Francesca Rogier: Well, Brindi’s now at a kennel outside of town. I hate to say where it is, but they moved her about a week ago, so she’s no longer at Homeward Bound, and I can see her there when I want to. And I’m working with the trainer. The trainer outlines in a letter to the city how many hours she envisions for me separately, for Brindi separately, and for us together, and we’ve actually put in more than she wanted for us, but that’s because we just talk a lot… so, we’re going to be finishing those up this week and then she’s going to be working with Brindi a couple of times this week, too. She hasn’t met her yet, but she’s going to do that Thursday and Friday.
Let’s back up a bit. You won your case, in April?
April 30th was the day the ruling was announced.
Part of the ruling said that we had to go through this training and then return to court so the judge could sign off on the trainer. The judge set aside a day in August to do that, but we can go in sooner if we finish sooner. We probably could’ve been back and gotten her back by now, but it took a month for the city to do anything, literally.
What was that problem about?
I don’t really know, but it helped that I asked to stop working with the city lawyer because he was really being obstinate. You know, the judge said we had to work together, and he wasn’t working together. And then after I went to the media about that—I proposed trainers, I wasn’t getting any answers, and it was just a merry-go-round of who to talk to—they met with me soon after I went to the media, and everything changed. They said they want to see Brindi go home as soon as possible, and they agreed to move her to this kennel, which I’d been trying to do for like a year because it’s more suited for long-term boarding, instead of just a pound.
She wasn’t in Dartmouth?
The SPCA’s contract ended on March 31, so they moved her to this other place in Burnside and it has even less of an outside space—it has literally two parking spaces fenced off for an outdoor space, which is not even good for short-term. I wrote to the SPCA—a lot of people complained to the SPCA about that, and they say it’s OK, which I can’t believe, really.
[…]
They’ve killed two dogs in the new place, in April. When I was asking them to move Brindi, I said, “you’ve got two other dogs plus Brindi, and they’re both in the short-term place in Burnside, why aren’t they out in the country where they’re supposed to be?” And HRM’s lawyer said, “well, the other were put down now.” I think one of them was a dog that, last year it was in there for at least 10 months, and it bit some bicyclist or something, and the other one was the one that went after the pest control guy that was in the news, and I don’t know what that dog did, but they’re both gone. That means the total since 2007 is 33 dogs [put down].
[She’s been in the new kennel for a week.] I was able to see her twice before they moved her—that was twice since December, because they wouldn’t let me see her all this time, and I’ve been out there twice since they moved her. I was out there yesterday, and it’s a much nicer place. It’s outside of town, and it’s got runs that are in the woods, and she gets a lot more exercise. She’s much happier, she gets sun and it’s all in nature.
Are you paying for the new place?
No, the city’s funding that, because they’re supposed to, that’s what they do. I’m paying for the trainer.
And you had some issues with the trainer?
I proposed one trainer, and the city never really responded in writing about them until they finally had a meeting and they said, “they’re fine” and I said, “why didn’t you answer,” and they said, “we want them to outline how they’re going to train the dog.” And I said, “the judge left everything up to the trainer, it’s not up to you.” They were just dancing around with that. I had a second trainer proposed as well, and so I went with her.
The city’s really odd. They suddenly said, “well, the trainer can take Brindi home if they want.” But I said, “the judge expressly said no to that.” And they said, “oh, we can do that if we want to.” I was very worried, because I didn’t want to have Brindi go home with a trainer and have her yanked away if somebody complained or something.
But anyway, it wasn’t that I had an issue with the trainer, it’s that the city was dragging its feet. We had to have a meeting, and the trainer had to write a detailed letter to the city, and last week she got it in writing saying that they approved her formally. The city said they’d pay for up to three weeks at the kennel, which I don’t think is reasonable one way or the other—I want her home, but the trainer has to complete a certain number of hours, and she may or may not complete it in that amount of time, I don’t know.
Are you able to see Brindi whenever you want now?
Yea, pretty much. Between 10 to 12 and 3 to 5. But I don’t have to ask permission from the city, I can just call the place and go. When I’m there, I can see her as long as I want—they don’t limit it to half an hour. I may go there today. I’ll probably go out there every other day. And she was ecstatic to see me yesterday. She was just bowling over with joy—she was galloping all over the place, she was having a great time.
The other thing is, they were supposed to inspect my fence, which they did. He made one suggestion about blocking a hole at the bottom, but otherwise it seemed to be OK—I haven’t heard anything else. And I’m waiting for my vet to go to the new place—they wouldn’t let the vet go to the other place at all—so, she’s going to do that early next week. Because Brindi contracted pancreatitis while she was in the care of the SPCA, and she’s also got very bad teeth now, as the result of being denied dental care and being denied bones. She’s got enamel damage, which is serious, because people get staph infections that go right to their heart, if they have bad dental bacteria, and the same thing happens a lot with animals, and this is my big fear for her—it could shorten her life. I think the pancreatitis will definitely shorten her life. That’s something that, between HRM and SPCA, they’re responsible for.
This has been a two-year ordeal for you.
July 24th was the day they took her, 2008.
It seems like the situation is finally coming to a resolution.
Hopefully. I’m of a mixed mind about this training thing, because I was going to train her anyway. I said to the judge, “I’ll come back in a month or two, after you give her back, and prove that we’ve made improvements in her behaviour,” and somehow the judge decided that that should happen before she comes home, which is unprecedented—it’s never been done before, not anywhere. I don’t think the situation called for it, because of the nature of the incidents. I think that’s a bad thing.
The good thing is for everybody else, this could be a good precedent, so that in the future, rather than simply destroying the dogs, the judges will be looking into that as an option—hopefully not keeping the dog in the pound, but ordering the owner to work with a trainer, rather than just killing dogs that bit people. The two dogs that they just put down had bitten people—not that badly, but they’d bitten people. So, they don’t just see this as death or nothing. So that’s a good thing. The trainer’s very interested in that, too. That’s one of the reason’s she’s taking this too, because she sees this as a good way to set a precedent.
Are you getting your life back together?
Not quickly. It took weeks and weeks for us to get going, and finally this past week we’re working with her. In between, I don’t really know how to spring back. I’m worn out. I have to go back to court on August 3rd to appeal the decision that my ex-lawyer got that awards him $20,000 on top of what I already paid him. I have to go to the Supreme Court to do this, and I have to write a brief by July 16th—I don’t know how to do this. And this is still keeping my life in Limbo.
The irony might be that this gets resolved, and you have your dog back, settle down and have to go to work every day.
I’m working at home mostly anyway. I may be teaching, I don’t really know… the construction of my house: after coming off a very long, traumatic, stressful experience, now I have to depart on another traumatic, stressful experience of doing construction, which I was in the middle of when they took Brindi, and that’s not what I’m really feeling up to, I have to confess. It’s very, very daunting. I have to go back and redo drawings, in the middle of the high construction season, try to find a decent contractor. That’s no simple matter. I was expecting at the latest that February would be the end of this thing, and it would give me plenty of time… I don’t want to go through a third winter without water and heat.
It can’t be good structurally for your house, either.
Exactly. My roof has been getting worse and worse, and is leaking. Everything is in bad shape. I really regret that, that didn’t have to happen. The city, ironically, tried to start cracking down on my to finish my house, while they’re holding Brindi. It’s ridiculous. Bill Moore, the guy who’s the superintendent of all bylaws, even said to me at this meeting, he was holding off on the guy who was coming to inspect—they were wanting me to tie down the house laterally—said, “well, I held him back because I figured you’d be getting it at both ends”—he actually said that. If they had started to do that, it would’ve just been a nightmare.
I’m extremely tired, my financial situation is horrible, I’m scared about the Supreme Court, so yea, it’s not like Brindi comes back and my life is magically OK again. I still have to deal with the after-effects of all this stuff. I’m definitely looking forward to her coming back, and it’s great to see her, but I still think none of this had to happen.
The courts should not be dealing with these cases, because that’s the number one reason they’re taking so long is because they throw them into the provincial court system. If they had a special tribune that could handle them, they could set a time line of 30 days for people to appeal, and it would be done. They should have a tribune with people who are veterinarians and dog trainers and experts—people that breed dogs, people that own dogs, they should have four or five people, and they should know what they’re supposed to do. They would only meet when they needed to meet; this [way we do it now] is just insane.
The big contradiction socially is that we put so much into our pets, spend billions on food and training, you see billions of holiday movies every year about dogs, then they’re discarded like vermin by cities. The pet relationship, the bond we have with our pets, it just means nothing to these city bylaws. That has got to change.
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Saving Brindi
This article appears in Jun 17-23, 2010.
Thankfully, this terrible ordeal for Ms Rogier will soon be over:) This woman deserves some peace and quiet in her life and having Brindi back will do that! Way to go Francesca!
I feel like I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading that blather. I’ll be glad when she gets her dog back so we don’t have to read this drivel anymore and she’s got no reason to complain anymore – but guess what – I’ll be she’ll find a new thing to complain about and blame everybody in the world for her problems – because everything that happens is everybody else’s fault – except for hers!
Finally a light at the end of the tunnel!!! Well done Fran, for sticking it out. You’ve made one dog VERY happy 🙂
It’ll be interesting to see what happens when the dog bites another person. Do we blame the trainer then?
To waawaawaa.. nobody forced you to spend 10 minutes reading this article. If you are sick of the “drivel”, why are you still reading it?
I am very happy that it looks like the ordeal Brindi and Ms Rogier have been through is coming to an end. So much pain and suffering could have been avoided, and tax payers money saved, if the City of Halifax hadn’t been so obstinate in refusing to negotiate conditions like this two years ago. My best wishes to Ms Rogier and Brindi for the future.
Dr Fever, Brindi never ever bit a person. Please get your facts correct before posting comments.
My apologies, another dog. The dog is dangerous. It should be put down. No amount of training will save it.
Dr Fever, how can you say she is dangerous when you so clearly do not know the facts? You actually thought she had bitten someone; I repeat, you should not be commenting unless you know what you are talking about. The judge had access to all the facts and she did not believe this dog should be put down. Even people who do not like the owner do not want this dog put down. No-one except you believes she is dangerous, and you admit to getting her mixed up with another dog!
Thanks for the update and keep the topic going, please! Not only does there need to be a new system for handling these cases, with a proper tribune, but the by-law urgently needs improvements! There needs to be more public awareness of these issues so that there can be a wider discussion before the council votes on changes.
It’s somewhat amusing to see the comments claiming “this dog is dangerous” even after all this time. The facts are clear as day on this animal’s behavior, which is so much better than dozens of other dogs in the city whose owners were merely fined (or had charges withdrawn) for biting people, attacking dogs, and even killing animals, none of which Brindi did. A supreme court victory and another victory in provincial court clearly establish that it was indeed the city’s wrongdoing that led to this sad affair, not the owner, who was willing to do what was required from the start.
And a few weeks ago, the city fired the animal control officer who seized Brindi and ordered her to be put down.
So it’s obvious that anybody making such remarks like waawaawaa is nothing more than a hater, determined to sling mud regardless of the facts. Like all online papers, The Coast has its regulars when it comes to haters. Waawaawaa’s name is very apt, because it’s exactly what I would say to them about supposedly wasting 10 minutes reading this interview: “Wah, wah, wah!”
Let’s see what happens when the dog bites either another animal or person, because it will happen. I stand by my statement, and whether you like it or not, there are always going to be people that disagree. That the fun of public opinion. To call them “haters” is immature and lends nothing to your argument.
I’d like to add, if you’re that concerned, I re-read the earlier article, and did admit to my mistake.
While I admit that I do not know Ms. Rogier or the useless mutt, that does not preclude me from commenting or voicing an opinion.
Well, Dr. Fever, nobody can deny your right to opine, but it would be nice to see an informed opinion. The word “hater” applies when an opinion is unilaterally negative without any significant basis in reality. Also, “Useless mutt” is not exactly a “mature” way to back up your statements, don’t you think?
Your concern is acknowledged, but misplaced. Perhaps you ought to worry less about Brindi and a lot more about all the other dogs out there in HRM, sans muzzle orders, who have bitten people, some more than once, or killed cats and chickens. They are the real threats. This dog is NOT. That is not just an opinion, it is backed up by four professional dog trainers, two who did behavioral assessments, and two who trained her or are presently training her.
Thankfully this will all be over soon. Ms. Rogier is to be commended for her strength and perseverence. All dog owners of HRM owe her a big Thanks. HRM is in-humane and they should be held accountable. Brindi has been through hell – developed pancreatitis and bad teeth. The poor dog was not even walked for 2 YEARS. I see worse incidences almost daily in the dog parks. Not only are we creating designer dogs, we now expect them to have designer behaviour.!
HRM – your system sucks and you need KNOWLEDGEABLE people to re-vamp it.
I can’t wait for the day Ms. Rogier bring’s her beloved Brindi home. Why do rapist, child molestor’s and killer’s get a second third chance. yet poor Brindi was put on death row. Some will say it’s because it’s an animal. Human’s are suppose to be more intelligent than animal’s . We know right from wrong. Who would you want to come face to face with. I would pick Brindi anyday.
Kudos to Francesca Rogier and her unwavering commitment to her pet, to her community and to justice. If there were more people like her, the world would be a much better place. Let’s hope this is a beginning to long needed reforms to animal laws in the city and province, to make sure that animals and owners who are innocent are treated fairly and those who have committed offences are also treated fairly!! No one can disagree with that. The real problems lie with certain government officials and poor laws MUCH more than the actions of animals or owners, certainly in this case as well as many others.
One can’t teach common sense, something that is lacking by the owner of this mutt!
Humane Halifax poster IS Ms. Rogier
Wonder why she has disappeared now since Brindi has bitten again because the newly insightful owner never had her muzzled or leashed. The AC and RCMP are not able to contact her because she don’t answer her phone nor her door. If the complaint she put in about the other dog were true, wouldn’t she stick around and see the complaint through or if she didn’t want to go through with it, cancel it. This last attack caused this dog to go to the vet with 2 puncture wounds in it’s neck. Rogier can’t nor won’t follow by-laws nor court orders. Brindi is a very nice dog with no problems except with this owner. It is about time this dog is taken from her and re-homed to be given a real chance at a life.
For all you supportors who would not listen to others before, I guess crow pie is in order.