So okay. I make no qualms about the fact that I have no use for unions. I have a Bachelors Degree plus a Masters, yet there are people out there working in a union doing unskilled labour (such as sweeping a floor) making more money than I do. Call me bitter but there is something wrong with that picture. But when I picked up the Globe and Mail this morning and read about the outside worker’s strike in Toronto and the “issues” that caused it, I was even more nauseated than normal. The main stumbling block you ask? The union gets 18 sick days a year. If they do not use them they are allowed to “bank them” and when they retire they are to be paid out for EVERY sick day they did not take in their career!!! That’s right. So if you have been with the City for, say, 10 years, and did not use any of your sick time, you get “rewarded” with 180 days pay when you retire!! Besides the obvious lunacy of this policy,. the fact that anyone is allowed to take 18 sick days a year to begin with is just moronic. The City of Toronto says taht giventhe tough economic times that they can no longer afford to continue this policy. The nerve!! If I missed 18 days this year I would be out on my ass. And people wonder why there are alot of souls out there who cannot stand unions? Gee. I wonder why? Of course the Union decides to wait until a heat wave hits the city to walk out so that the garabage will rot faster on the sides of the streets.
—Fed up with Unions.
This article appears in Jun 18-24, 2009.
OP, it’s for lack of a union that “[you] have a Bachelors Degree plus a Masters, yet there are people out there working in a union doing unskilled labour (such as sweeping a floor) making more money than [you] do”. I was in the same boat. I’m now self employed.
Well, those guys do have it tough! At least compared to our thousands of N.S. teachers. They get 20 sick/personal/floatingvacation days a year… that’s 20 to be taken within their 195 teaching days. And, they don’t need to present ANY reason. They simply need to say, “I’m taking a personal day.”
I don’t think having students end up with 10% of their days with substitute teachers is fair (to the students or the tax payer) when many of these days are not SICK days but simply days the teachers are trying to “use up” because they can “only” bank them to 195 days, or 1 year of work. Disgusting, frankly.
I’d love to hear some numbers of how many of our grade-school tax dollars go to this issue specifically. I think there’s several thousand teachers. Each personal day costs tax payers their salary, the substitute teacher’s salary, plus benefits.
I’ve never heard a single person agree with me on this issue, so of course I’m ready for all the union brainwashing. My favourite defense is that “anyone could become a teacher so don’t complain”. Well, there are a finite number of teaching position, so if I had decided to become a teacher in my youth, one of you would not be a teacher today. Simple.
A big bank of substitute teachers keeps labour costs down, not up. Each of the is ready to step up to full time, so the full time teachers have less bargaining power.
Just because they get 18 sick days a year doesn’t mean the employer will tolerate the use of 18 sick days a year. I know our contract states that our alloted sick time is not to be confused with how much sick time is tolerated. It’s probably the same there. Though I might have to do some digging on this TO contract, I’m sure the employer was smart enough to cap sick hours if they’re paying out in full at retirement. If not, it’s no wonder the city doesn’t have money.
Something tells me there is more to it than this one issue, and that the media just picked one and ran with it. That’s been my observation.
It’s good that the sick days are there in case you are actually sick. It wouldn’t be fair to remove them. The reason they can bank them is to encourage people to NOT use them during the year so they can take them as a bonus at the end of their career. In the Toronto situation, I think there is a cap to the banking of sick days to something like 6-months worth of leave.
I’ve been following the Toronto situation a bit, and while there are other issues the union and city can’t agree on, the banking of sick days is the main one. The city claims that they just can’t afford the payouts right now because of the economic climate.
Lots of other places have been getting rid of similar policies because of the tendency for abuse. I can’t blame city hall for wanting to can the policy either.
Unions have been out of control for too long. But not to worry, they keep it up they’ll work themselves out of jobs (the Big Three anyone).
That should have been price, not work. I Can’t figure out who works less Union members or politicians. All I know is the rest of us pay for it.
Unions do serve a purpose, but the laziness they breed (sometimes even encourage) is sickening.
ooh, teacher bashing. What fun. Wait, did I stumble into the Chronicle-Heralds web page by mistake?
My first and last experience with working with Union people was when I was a public servant..not only do they breed laziness, complacency and apathy they breed contempt, criminality/pathologies and substandard service delivery and all that before lunch..and dang do not ask anyone to stay 5 extra minutes to help you get your room ready for a presentation….hell to the nah it is cutting into their time….. most sick days are Friday and Monday….reminds me of the guy drinking rum in a bottle hidden in a paper bag…too obvious yet no one says boo…..sad…unions in theory and historically were needed….unions as they are now…are scary….
I was ask to attend a union protest by HCAP….I started seeing their hypocrisy when they wanted to keep non-union carpenters from making an honest day buck yet out of the other side of their mouths they claim they are poverty advocates……. shocking… to want to keep folks from earning money to eat while supporting unions who are quite wealthy……
I am in a unionized job and have a lot of sick time banked but I wasnt aware of any sick pay that I didnt use would be paid out when I retire. Wow.
It’s a fact: Mondays and Fridays account for 40 percent of all sick days.
It is not “teacher bashing” to disagree with a certain policy.
Likewise, a person can disagree with specifics about the TO city workers’ plight without being anti-union or anti-city-worker. To dumb things down so much reeks of insecurity.
People get so scared when these discussions come up so they make answers like “ooh, teacher bashing. What fun.” If you’re that insecure, maybe you agree with me that the sick day policy is unjust… you’re just not ready to admit it (to yourself) lest you start to feel guilty about exploiting such policies?
I have a union job and love it. Sorry guys but I had a really rough time with my employer at one time, my union rep was right there to help me. They do serve a purpose on different levels. I guess I just had a different experiance then most.
Well then OP, at least you can say you love your work!!
Wow Tim I would have thought it was more than 40%….Where I worked you could place bets on who would call in sick on a Monday or Friday…. the great news was that it meant more hours for me..the bad news…it meant more hours for me….
“It’s a fact: Mondays and Fridays account for 40 percent of all sick days.”
Is this comment being made “tongue in cheek”?
I ask this because, if my calculations are correct, if you combine Monday and Friday they compromise 40% of the work week. An equally shocking statistic would be that 100% of sick days are taken between Monday and Friday.
(Of course, I am only commenting on a Monday to Friday work week.)
Having worked in a union environment for a decade I am able to see both sides of this argument. However, I will present this as food for thought.
I worked in a mental health facility for youth and their families and my unionized environment allowed me to advocate for the kids I worked with without fear of reprisal from my employer. In other words, I could disagree with my employer when I thought the kids were getting screwed without having to worry about it.
>>>Is this comment being made “tongue in cheek”?<<<< 100 percent of Bitch commenters are geniuses.
You’re at it awfully early today! Good morning, Tim.
I`m in a non-union job and I get unlimited sick days, but they’re obviously not paid out. Just gonna toss that out there.
I’m not a teacher nor am I in a union.
I’m sure there are people who abuse the benefits that go with union employment, but obviously there are many who don’t or shit just wouldn’t get done.
Tim, Rango is new (stated in another post that s/he just moved here) and does not yet know our “unique” personalities.
As for the topic, I have mixed feelings about unions. Many years ago the NSTU cut substitute wages and voting rights and gave the union executive pay raises. Disenfranchised hundreds if not thousands at once. This same union allows retired teachers to come back as substitutes; double dipping getting their pensions and subbing wages while keeping young teachers out of regular work, even as a sub.
Other times I’ve seen the positive impact of unions, like that outlined by mcgayle. Worked in another union environment myself as management and had no problems with my staff. I respected their contract/rules (mostly) and they in turn never minded giving a little extra when it was needed because they knew that it was a) appreciated, and b) meant a better working environment for all.
Welcome, Rango, and hi Kay. I got four hours of sleep, up at 4, to finish writing this week’s feature. You won’t see much of me this week.
Tim (and everyone),
Nice to “meet” you.
I figured you were joking and it was the comment subsequent to yours (which appears to have been deleted) that lead me to throw my first two cents in.
Cheers!
now a days having a Bachelors Degree plus a Masters means nothing, you can get better jobs without them
Argue THAT with your teenager *sigh*
This calls for serious improvement Tim’s caffeine allotment! Thank you for doing what it takes to do your job well, Tim. We bitches appreciate it. Good morning anyway!
I know!
it is true that you should be educated to an extent. The way I look at it is ->
If you have a goal to do soemthing such as a Doctor, Lawyer, surgeon, Teacher etc I say go to university and get your degrees but the problem with half the kids out there is that they dont know what they want to do so its a waste of money! Get a trade less money (to pay for education) and more job opportunities.
Fuck anyone who is not pro union. All of you snivelling little bitches that were coddled for way too long in university are now out in the real world and crying because no one wants to give you a living wage, meanwhile tradespersons have been actually working (and by the way if you say school is your job you deserve a punch in you trust-fund baby face) and taking part in one of the most noble practices in the free world which is labour organization, without which people like yourself become exploited. Trade unions and tradespersons, which by the way are the fucking backbone of this country have more training and certification over their career than most “professionals”. As far as the sanitation workers in Ontario are concerned they deserve everything they ask for. They do the job that none of you academics would have the stomach for. Fuck everyone who doesn’t support unions local or non-local, bitches.
oh and the student mentality…………
Beautifully spoken, nai blanc. *A single tear falls down everyone’s face. A slow clap builds to a deafening applause. Unions are now loved by all, and unionized workers pick their asses happily ever after. Fin.*
It’s not that academics don’t have the stomach for cleaning up garbage, it’s that they have the brains, education and opportunities not to have to. I don’t think any kid grows up saying “I want to be a sanitation engineer when I grow up”.
And for the record, I’m not shitting on people who work for a living at all…just disagreeing with the notion that the Ontario garbage collectors “deserve everything they ask for”. City workers in Toronto from various unions are some of the best paid and compensated workers in Canada and they are always bitching and moaning for more and they are some of the laziest unionized employees I have ever encountered…I’m looking at you Toronto Transit Commission workers.
Nai Blanc- I can only assume that you are not serious because there cannot be anyone walking the streets of Halifax that fucking stupid! I was not “coddled” through university. I worked my way trhough since both my parents had passed on. I drove cab, waited tables..whatever it took. What did YOU do? Take “Floor Sweeping 101” at your local community college? There are alot of good union people out there and you hate to see everyone painted with the same brush. However when I see comments by entitlistic assholes like you I have to laugh. You have the fucking gall to call people who went to university “coddled” HAHAHA. There is no one more fucking coddled than a union member. Just ask CAW how unions are working for them. You are next.
I have a degree in political science as well as Journey Person’s status in the pipefitting trade, so, um, like, go fuck yourself Bobby33. Miles you have a valid point there . Most kids that go to university have brains and opportunities. They would never have to lower themselves to cleaning up garbage. I think you are also right about the fact that they do not grow up thinking they want to be a garbage men or women. They probably grow up thinking, “I want to go to university for four years to attain a B.A in sociology or women’s studies, gee golly that will be great. I can avoid actually working for a living, by either leeching off my parents or by accumulating a massive amount of debt that I will never pay off and make the rest of society shoulder the burden while I gallivant in Asia teaching English, or work for minimum wage as a barista.”
nai blanc- the only ones leeching are overpaid morons like yourself who feel they are entitled to time and a half or double time and 3 times the salary than you deserve. Political Science?!?! HAHAHAHAHA..no wonder you decided to go play with pipes!!
You are a fucking idiot plain and simple and I am pretty sure that your parents wouldn’t be too proud of their daughter using their death as means to create a convincing argument, which actually failed. It’s great that most years I make more money than doctors do. Chew on that, while you plug away at whatever miserable existence you have fashioned out of your bullshit degree that is if you have actually attained one.
I work in a call center with my friend who has their degree in Political Science.
Hense the CALL CENTER
NAI BLANC- ahh..there it is. I knew if you babbled long enough you would hang youself. “it’s great that in most years I make more than doctors do”. So you feel that because you are unionized and have a degree in pipes that you are entitled to make more than a Doctor? That, in itself, is excatly what is wrong with unions today. If you make anything even remotely CLOSE to what a Doctor makes, then we need to find you and charge you with fraud and theft. At the very least, it is a PATHETIC statement as to how ludicrous union demands and salaries are. Pathetic. Plain and simple.
A degree in pipes?
ahhhh, this is what happens when the oppressed become the oppressors…
seriously NB, do you think that saying you make more than most doctors bolsters your argument? Yours is the salary that is the issue in that comparison, unrealistically so from a market standpoint. What has caused this market bubble? unions. The power that they wield was undoubtedly necessary at one point in our history – and still is to bring BALANCE to negotiations – but when unions have simply taken over the heavy hand that management once had it only exacerbates the issues, futher polarizing the parties and doing a disservice to the reasons for unions in the first place. We are in desperate need of market correction so that businesses can afford to survive in todays climate and grow in tomorrows.
The problem really is that concessions have to be made and that is not the way negotiations are traditionally run. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and actually try to work together to come up with a feasible solution, rather than simply arguing for the sake of it.
And what is it that you do that allows you to retain the right to look down upon unions?
My double major in English and Political Science trumps your PolySci degree.
No, I don’t make close to or more than a doctor makes.
My degree is still in its protective tube, but at least the student loan is paid off.
Hey Cranky, where’d ya get it from?
Box of Captain Crunch.
Damn, all I got was a free trial Atlantis computer game.
“And what is it that you do that allows you to retain the right to look down upon unions?”
nai blanc, it’s just not that simple. It doesn’t matter what a person does. A person can even be in a union and have opinions against how unions do things.
The worst argument I’ve ever heard from a teacher when discussing their benefits, is that they can have whatever they want (and do whatever they want with their personal days) because anyone can become a teacher. Well, anyone can become a politican too… there are NO prerequisites, but it doesn’t mean the very worst things that politicans do is okay.
Just cause you’re in a union doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with the things that happen in it. From a completely selfish standpoint, it probably means you should keep your mouth shut for your own benefit as you’re only further highlighting the bad aspects of unions. (That said, there are some good aspects, but you’ve yet to present any of them.)
i lovemondaystoo you hit the nail on the head. this was just my point in my comment above (which now appears to have been deleted for some reason). this nai blanc character is attempting to highlight what is important and great about unions, but appears to be his own worst enemy by writing such aggressively heavy-handed and polarizing diatribes against the educated and non-unionized, and reinforcing pretty much all the negative stereotypes folks have about unions.
it could be brilliant satire, but i doubt it.
and no pipefitter should make andy more money than any physician. if unions truly represent what society values, then they shouldn’t be pushing manufacturing over health – as that is the very opposite of what many pro-union folks would have us believe they value.
Well until they find Jimmy Hoffa………. I do not trust them
😉
Know how many sick days I get a year? 5. And yes I have a “real” job.
jezz i have to earn my sick days
I love my hospital union job. I am a casual, and it beats working for min wage trying to pay rent, buy text books, food, tuition. So happy and lucky I have it!
Unions…the only reason everyone doesn’t make $2.00 per hour. The only reason that non unionised tradesmen (and women) make the kind of wages they do .
Hmmmmm, I wonder if Unionism is the driving force behind inflation ?
lol
Minimum wage legislation. The new-ish reason everyone doesn’t make $2/hr. Unions have their purpose, but a lot of them are going to collectively bargain themselves out of work if they keep trying to get paid more for working less. Ask the Auto workers.
I actually agree with nai blanc, it is common sense that unions not only protect their members but also serve as a way for non-unionized workplaces to stay in check because of threat of being unionized, at least in larger workplaces where workers out number management. I have read this person’s post’s before, and although they are usually extreme in nature, and I do not agree with their methods of putting their ideas accross, they usually hit the nail on the head and it is followed by people flaming them necause they are an ass and not because they are wrong.
Sodapop, I think the ideas that people with university degrees are coddled, whiny little bitches who don’t work hard and don’t deserve good jobs, and that the rest of society shoulders the burden of the educated, and that it is fair for a pipefitter to earn more than a physician, and that unions are necessarily noble (some are, many more are are organizations of thugs collecting dues), and they they are the only way to keep employers in check not only make this guy an ass, they make him flat out wrong.
I agree with Jammie, but that’s because I’m a coddled university educated physician who can’t pay off my debt because I don’t make as much as a pipefitter and all my piddly salary goes to pay professional fees instead of union dues. My grapes are sour.
And you know what the worst thing is Miles? They are now saying that red wine DOESN’T have positive health effects after all. So those sour grapes are nothing but bile for us poor whiny little physician types.
Do what I do. Get a degree in poly-sci, then work a union job. Problem solved.
All I am saying is that I come from a long line of trades people and it would seem that on this thread most of the people commenting are under the assumption that having a trade = uneducated which is not at all the case. I don’ think that all university students or professionals feel this way. It just seem like the general consensus but again only on this thread, although I do see how people look down on my family in general. I would urge anyone who does feel this way though to actually research the life long training that trades people go through usually facilitated by their union in conjunction with community colleges and universities, before adopting the attitude that says that it is not okay for blue collared workers to earn more than white collared workers. Or one form of education is worth more than another. I think that attitude is really closed-minded and I wouldn’t want to receive any services from a “professional” who can’t think critically, especially when it comes to self assessment.
AN NPO I belong to had and has this poll…..and on it are:
(1) do you think public servants who harm/injure/cause undue hardship should be criminally charged and terminated or
(2)do you think their union should be criminally charged……. or
(3) do you think the servant should just be suspended….etc
and unanimously….
the voters and I do not know who they are….. said they want public servants criminally charged and fired…THEN their unions criminally charged…..
the masses have spoken……. the servants only get to do what their unions can cover up for them…..which is apparently a lot if we are talking NSGEU and Joan J
I don’t think I saw anyone looking down on tradespeople in this thread. Only people battling this jerk’s suggestion that anyone with a university education and a non-union job is a screaming asshole.
I have advised my youngins that if they do not have a plan and do not know exactly what they want out of university, then they are to go to tradeschool instead so they can get gainful employment and don’t fuck themselves for the first 10 years of their working lives. There’s nothing wrong with a skilled trad. If you are a hard-working thoughtful individual who doesn’t send all his time resenting everyone else who appears to be higher status than you are, a sense of pride (not pugnacious arrogance – pride) is worth much more than a degree.
Exactly, you have advised them if they do not know what they want to do in university to get a trade.As if one is not as good as the either. I am not passing judgement on your decisions, but I think that in and of it self sort of proves the point I was trying to get accross about one form of education being of thought of as higher quality than the other. I come from the school of thought because of my family back ground that both are equal.
Hmmm unions today, why do they exist? Let’s take Wally World in the US. They have 1,200,000 “associates”. The union want to unionize them. Take an average of $20/month dues per “associate equals $24,000,000/month for $288,000,000/year. And what will the associate see of it? Maybe a bit of paltry strike pay and when they reurn to work, they’ll never make up for the money they lost.
288,000,000 reasons why the unions want to get into Wally World. It ain’t for the “associates”, folks, just plain old greed.
sodapop i think you are looking for offense where none exists.
by telling them to get a trade instead of waste time in university, i have confirmed that i think exactly the opposite of what you seem to be interpreting. i think a trade is more than equal to a degree, and in fact better unless you know exactly what degree you want in a field you’re passionate about.
once again, if you don’t sit around with an inferiority complex speculating and assuming what other people think about you, you can have your own sense of pride and forget about these petty distinctions.
I have a serious issue with union dues paying for NDP nominations like Jackie Barkhouse in EP…I asked her on a community website if she asked every single union payer/donor if they personally minded their money going to her campaign bills ( posters said she was supported by unions)…..NO ANSWER…..we need to look into this……
I for one would not want my hard earned union dues going to pay for an election that has nothing to do with me….the twain should not meet: politicians need to go pimp their own money honey…….leave the dues to the people who earned them…just b/c the union leaders/management/stewards may be NDP does not mean all payers are……
But union management knows best. LOL.
Bro, I do not even think the dues payers even know their money was being used to fund and sponsor her campaign for municipal city council….. I doubt they called every payer and asked if it was okay…is this not misspending of union dues……something is very wrong here…
Sounds like unions and goverment are the same – screwing with our hard earned money and not giving a shit what we prefer. They’re just concerned about their own agendas and taking “business” trips, etc.
Perhaps I did misinterpret what you were trying to say.
Also I was under the impression that political support is brought up and voted for at union meetings. The choosing of the candidates that the union supports rather. Support usually goes to the candidates that are actually going to support unions. Before anyone crticizes that, that is a democratic process. Speaking from my experience only though.
Soda, I do not claim to know how anything works just offer opines on what is not working…and I did not realize how interwoven some agendas are with NDP and unions until I joined the Health Coalition and there is not enough time or room to talk about the ‘tomfoloery’ on that one…
I used to vote NDP until I seen what pimps they really were…. I planned a health breakfast that the coalition said they approved but not really… I had no idea how many union/NDP were part of this coalition until a meeting where I thot we were planning a community event turned into ‘lets make NDP look great’…. it caused alot of fighting and my eventual resignation after MY event….they didnot do any work until they pimped it to make it look like it wad their concern for the public….. but their first -third choices were all about union/NDP exposure not the public health at all…. dang and here I thot I joined a health coalition….
The NDP/union folks at the table who opposed having a community discussion for the public concerned about their own health care then realized it would look Alexa M look good right before that election…so it became a huge media event….much to my rage…..
I do not support using public issues to pimp platforms…. I could tell you more but you might need therapy…LOL.. anyway, it opened my eyes up then I moved to EP and seen the unions again play this scary role with the election of JB who just so happens to be NDP….
Unions should be accountable to those who financially support them: the worker……it is ironic that the one party that claims to be so about the poor, people who do not have any supports let alone unions….are all about the very thing poor will never have yet support, NSGEU, the very union who protects those who harm the poor, sick, families and elderly
…….mmmmmmmm me think NDP are not the victims they claim to be…they are opportunists….in a scary way
http://www.hpclearinghouse.ca/calendar/pri…{ts%20%272006-01-18%2007:17:38%27}
Link should read…
http://www.hpclearinghouse.ca/calendar/pri…{ts%20%272006-01-18%2007:17:38%27}
I don’t know what happened oooppsssss 😉
Dang, sorry again..something is not working……so have to manually put link into address…. the MC for that event and I got into a huge fight in the kitchen…he is a doctor who wanted it all to be NDP and stated that he would not have done the event had it not been NDP associated…I asked him to tell the public that during his opening comments..which he refused…..
The great news is some of the public does not drink kool-aid and I had them fill out surveys …the majority about 99% said that the poliplatforms had no business being at this community discussion… you can fool some of the people some of the time but……… THEY WERE PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
IT was a great day anyway despite the unions/NDP trying to highjack my party…the community came to have a community discussion….and I was so proud….POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!
Interesting McGayle.
I knew that the Coalition was commonly considered a “front” for a political party with a specific welfare agenda but I hadn’t really heard of union involvement. Very interesting to see some of this from someone so close to it.
I’m not sure I’d risk my anonymity on here the way you have though…
oops i meant “a specific welfare state agenda”, meaning they want everyone (except the wealthy) to get absolutely everything for free regardless of the cost to the (wealthy) taxpayers…