how the hell do you get off charging people 24.00 an hour to record music
i charged you 14.50$ an hour for my design services
and in all the mitigated gull you dare to say “woh thats too much”
did i not go to college – same as you?\
is my work not as worthy as yours ?
i guess being a professional tight wad – pays better
maybe i should change professions???
—soundofmusic
This article appears in Sep 17-23, 2009.
Just a thought – graphic design and music recording are two very different animals, requiring different equipment. Anyone with a Mac and some decent software can do design with the proper training – recording DOES require some additional equipment I would think…
$14.50 an hour???? I was making that as a graphic designer in the fucking mid-80s. You’re undercharging, dearheart.
Perhaps revert to the barter system, you do the art and they do the recording.
If you are only charging $14.50 an hour for Graphic Design you are essentially giving your time away for free—treating yourself and your product and your profession like worthless junk.
Why are you charging less than the cleaning lady for highly specialized work (and I am optimistically hoping high quality work) that is utterly necessary to the clients who hire you?
What was the point of going to college and spending thousands of dollars to learn the theory and technology of this profession, only to go into “business” for yourself for a measly 500 bucks a week, if that?
Your SKILLS and TIME have VALUE.
It’s time to start looking into how much it costs to hire other services, especially PROFESSIONAL services, and adjust your billing accordingly.
ie: How much does it cost to have people do work FOR YOU? How much does an hour at a hair salon cost? An hour at a mechanic’s shop?
How much do technical writers, web designers, teachers, dentists, engineers, architects, IT people, lawyers, etc, bill per hour? How much does a dinner at a nice restaurant cost?
How much does it cost to hire a piano tuner? A sound engineer? A lighting technician?
These people are PAID for what they do—they are not volunteers. Why are you, the “graphic designer” willing to settle for being a VOLUNTEER?
I recommend you get your hands on a copy of the RGD Salary Survey, or the Graphic Artist’s Guild Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. Or you should look at the Gov’t of Canada’s “Job Futures” site average salaries for thousands of different job specializations.
$14.50 doesn’t even cover the cost of a phone consultation in my practice.
Oh, I see the answer now—you write like a kid in grade 2, so of course you don’t expect anyone to take you seriously, or actually pay you a wage worthy of a grown-up.
Oh yeah, one last tip: don’t hand over the goods until the cheque is in your hand.
Christ, no wonder some people equate “Graphic Designer” with “Unemployable Loser Who Owns a Mac” if amateurs like this are claiming to represent the profession.
I got back into my former profession/trade when I came back to Hfx. Realised people wanted to pay welfare level rates instead of the going rate so I decided to shut down my home business for the most part and go back to work for someone else.
I still do some side work but can pick who I’ll take on as a client while the other job pays the bills and give decent spending money and the select freelance clients pay well and that helps the bank balance.
But I’m certainly not willing to lower my standards to make low low wages after all these years.
sue him if you want a real per hour wake up
Well said Jane.
To OP: You’re doing the industry and yourself a disfavour when you charge that little. That is unless your work is complete shit.
$24 to record music? If this is studio time, thank your lucky stars. This person, like you, is woefully undercharging.
I’m with ustwess.
It doesn’t take long to do graphic design and the fact is doing it on a computer eliminates most of the actual “work”. With a studio, you’re paying for time, equipment and the service. I’ve often had to pay $20-30 an hour to record DJ sets and then have them rendered and mastered for me by studio employees.
Big difference.
What?
It can take hours, weeks and months to do graphic design.
The client meetings, the concept development, the drafts, the finals, the endless rounds of corrections and revsions and finally getting the thing printed and distributed.
We also have employees, esp, commissioned photographers and illustrators, as well as other specialty professionals that we consult and work with all the time.
The “computer” doesn’t do any of the design. Design happens in the brain.
A big part of my job is dealing with crappy files that amateurs have tried to “design” themselves.
They have no clue about getting a 300 page document press-ready, and I spend hours — and bill handsomely— for fixing their idiotic mistakes.
You’re clicking buttons and dragging a mouse.
I wouldn’t lump graphic design as the same type of work as painting and real artistry. Not trying to say that graphic artists aren’t talented, but its not like you’re taking a virgin canvas, oils or pastels and creating something by hand from scratch.
The computer is doing the bulk of the work. Its like how there was a major boom in the number of “photographers” in the world after the development of the digital camera (compared to photographers who use film instead).
NGF’s comment is exactly why people in graphic design and other “mouse pusher” trades will never, ever make a decent wage in this town. The exception are those who can afford to fire the cheapskate clients before you sell yourself cheap and put all the class hours and skills perfection to waste.
A good example of unwanted customers I routinely tell to go fuck themselves are those seeking a layout for their business sign, the thing will be viewed by tens of thousands of people for the next 5 years and the $200 to $300 I’d bill makes them freak out. When you factor in the actual (illuminated, 4×8) sign and installation the whole thing might be $2800 but try and explain that it’s only costing them $1.56 a day to have their name exposed to a large number of potential and current clients. Try getting the Herald to run an ad for $1.56 a day.
Problem here is that people in trades are much too eager to cut a competitors throat and take the job for peanuts. Not me, no thank you.
Spoken like a true, ignorant idiot NGF.
Professional? Not with that writing ability you aren’t, I don’t care if it’s professional graphic designer, shoe polisher, or escort.
Brilliant, BF. Did you write that shit?
No, I didn’t write it NGF. I read it off a conspiracy website.
Sorry NGF—the physical execution of a final file for a piece may involve clicking the mouse (much like using a computer for “writing”) but it’s the conceptualizing and problem-solving that I bill for—and at a much higher rate than $14.50 an hour I assure you.
Just as your computer does not “write” your emails for you, even though typing on a keyboard is admittedly far less labourious than writing script with pen and ink on parchment; just as electronic music is not “composed” by the computer; just as architecture, accounting, engineering or science are not “done” by the computer, my computer does not magically do any design for me. (Or maybe I just haven’t found that button yet.)
I spend weeks and months working with clients to develop unique, memorable, trademark-able visual communications for their businesses, and trust me I have seen the crap that secretaries and bosses have tried to “design” themselves. I always feel good knowing my most valuable skills remain rare, and my real career remains quite secure.
Computer technology changes year after year. Print, Video, Web, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Flash, FinalCut . . . yawn, it all comes and goes. It doesn’t matter what the current new medium is. However, thinking up new and creative design to suit the ever-changing trends and needs of mass communications will always be a rewarding challenge that can consume a lifetime of study and creative exploration.
I’ve been doing this for almost 20 years and I consider myself a mere beginner, having barely scratched the surface of the vast world of possibilities under the umbrella of “design.”
Sure, the computer makes certain tasks like the actual layout faster—I certainly don’t miss drawing grids on boards—but the REAL work of design—the “thinking it up”—well, THAT’s (literally) where the money is.
Anyone can operate a computer. Very few people know how to design. I need a computer for production, file prep and prototyping, but the actual “design” happens when I sit down with pencil, paper and a well-stocked brain.
So, NGF, if you have any original design ideas you’d like to contribute to any of my projects please feel free, but please do make sure those files are 100% error-free and print-ready while you’re at it. (That task alone will keep you occupied for quite some time, I am sure.)
In return, I’ll send you a bill for all the time that will undoubtedly be required for making something usable out of whatever piece of “design” you send my way.
And by the way would you care to share with us here just much YOU charge per hour for time you spend working at YOUR chosen field?
Happy Designing!
PDG – wait till your collective agreement comes up for negotiations and HRM’s management tries to compare bus drivers to the driver of a scooter or smartcar and claims the hourly pay should be cut because they believe any joe blow can drive a bus. I suppose most people could drive one but could they do it safely while dealing with impatient road users and those many special passengers MT seems to attract.
My dad’s a music producer and a very well known musician within the music scene (not only locally, he’s known all over canada and within the states as well) with his own production company and doesn’t do “per hour” billing, he does flat billing per project based on what said “package” entails. He has a partner who owns his own studio, so it’s a lot cheaper for them to run operations from there rather than rent studio time someplace else. Then he’ll get the CDs pressed from a company in Ontario, and on one of his latest projects he contracted out graphic design services and paid on a project basis, not a “per hour” basis. Works out quite well for him. And generally, if the artist he’s producing/recording just wants to record they get the master and arrange to have the CDs pressed themselves, which works out even better for him because he enjoys the recording/producing/mastering part better than the arranging graphic design and having the CDs pressed part.
So, given that, maybe you could work out a “per project” rate with the recording people…OR, find another place to record?
VOR: 23 months and counting till the end of the current deal. I’m hoping not, but I sense I might be without a paycheque for a bit.
Pretty Kitty is absolutely right about project rates. That really is the way to go with any kind of project of this nature. They are better for the professional, and better for the client who doesn’t want to feel nickled-and-dimed.
You have to come up with a fair all-in price that covers all your time, expenses and also gives yourself a decent profit.
In order to do this well, however, you have to have a confident understanding of the project and exactly how much time will be required, and what your base hourly rate is for that time. (You should also keep track of your time for your own reference, so you can estimate more precisely as each new project comes along.)
I do graphic design and charge $70/hr and that’s only because I’m in the East. Out West I’m charging $100/hr and the printers keep-a-callin’ looking to off-load design work. It’s a nice racket to be in but only if you’re getting paid. And I’ll tell ya, I hate to do anything more than once so one of last year’s project that consumed 100 hours of design work will take half the time this year because a lot of the templating is done and objects associated with branding (ie logo) aren’t going to change. Don’t think for a minute that I don’t charge them the same even though it takes me only half the time. Good thing we’re not lawyers billing for each man-hour under some legal code, huh?
That’s awesome, Kay, good for you!
I find it very funny to watch people’s jaws drop when you reveal hourly rates.
Some people really don’t have a clue about what ANY kind of independent professional can charge.
I myself enjoy the game of keeping ’em guessing about the ol’ financial situation. (I plan to eventally be one of those old ladies who no one thinks about and who leaves a ton of cash to my favourite organization — Ah ah ah! I’m not telling—yet!)
; )
I have some relatives who are convinced that being a designer means being a starving artist . . . especially when they ask “How on earth did YOU ever afford a trip to New York? You don’t, uh, exactly “work.” ”
I tell them, uh, gee, I dunno, I guess I sold a few paintings on the sidewalk for five bucks, and saved my pennies and booked myself in at the EconoLodge 3 states away . . . . NOT!!!!
: )
Hee hee hee!
Honestly, just like you are big on the “personal responsibility” thing, I am big on the “financial independence” thing. I really wish more young people, especially girls and women, would do this for themselves.
The charge isn’t so much for the work. I could do “graphic design” work for many hours, but guaranteed you won’t like what comes out. No, the charge is for knowing how to properly do said work. People don’t give kay that kind of money to work alone, they give it to her because they have a reasonable expectation they’ll like what comes out of that work. Same as many other professions. You get what you pay for.
PDG OMG did you take a happy pill?
Ruby, I hope you use a little more tact when letting clients know their ideas suck.
Kay….just how many jobs do you have?
Between VoR, Kay, RubyJane and I think TTFN as well it looks like Graphic Design provides lots of time for Bitching as well as making a decent dollar. I may need to consider a new line of work.
Hey PDG,
I can assure you that there are many, many freelancers working alone who bill—and keep—EXACTLY what Kay is has stated here.
And her rate is very much the average for a skilled professional in this region. I know some who are billing lower, some much higher, although the higher rates are mostly charged by the agencies who obviously have higher overhead.
The challenge of solo work is that you have to do so much of the admin and grunt work yourself that it is difficult to consistently rack up full weeks of billable hours, so over a year the earnings can vary wildly from week to week, month to month. The hourly rate, while accurate, may or may not always translate into the yearly salary you might expect.
A solo freelancer does indeed get to keep ALL the earnings they bill for—that is if you have no staff on your payroll. (And most freelancers I know are strictly single-person enterprises.) However, you also have to pay out all your usual business expenses that you don’t pay for if you work for someone else: your office space, your computer and current software, your own IT support, disability insurance, courier charges, etc. Plus, of course you have to make enough to pay your regular bills like rent, food, car, gas, clothes, and hopefully a little extra for the nicer things in life.
I am not one to advocate that freelance work is paradise—some days it is less than ideal. And some people go crazy working by themselves. It’s not for everyone.
But in this economy, it can be a very good way to “make one’s own job” and set yourself up better than most employers would be able to.
My office is much nicer than a cubicle, I have good music playing, I don’t have to dress up, and, hey, the best part: I can post to LTWWB without getting into too much trouble.
Not a bad idea kay. I have a date today with some NSCC students today, my first since school started. Should be a shiny happy day.
Hey Miles,
You bet I do—I only work with other professionals, who value what I do, and who know how much design and printing costs.
I have been approached by some very sleazy types who thought they were doing me a favour by “letting” me design their bar menus for — gasp —6 dollars an hour!!
I was MUCH more tactful with them than they deserved, told them (honestly) that I was very busy with other projects, and then , gleefully, shared it with all of you here.
I’m usually pretty nice to people in real life. It’s only on forums like this that I get a chance to let that other side show through.
And yes, there are sometimes gaps in the day that allow us to sneak in a little bit of chit chat on LTWWB.
Not that any of us are immune from procrastination now and then.
I’ve actually got three really big jobs on my desk right now that are kind of tedious, but will pay decently when they are completed.
So . . . back to work!
back to business…supply and demand determine price mofos. not what you think you are entlitled to for your creativity
Oh, yes, people are free to hire those who charge less if they choose . . . and they come back to me, happy to pay the full price when they want it done right, and on time.
I work with a lot of designers, and every one has their specialty. I have also found, that there are very few people who specialize in exactly what I do, so I always have projects—honestly, I turn work away.
When you get to a certain professional skill level, you have the right to expect to be paid accordingly. I work with the people who have the budget to pay industry rates for design and printing, and I don’t even get calls from the lower level clients—like the one I mentioned above who wanted to pay me $6.00 an hour for a several-week project that would literally earn him hundreds of thousands.
A printer won’t print the piece for minimum wage, and I won’t design it for minimum wage either.
whut? – you forgot one important two words: Satisfaction and Experience.
There are clients who want it cheap and fast, those are the ones I walk away from. However, there are those who want satisfaction and realise the best way to get that is by using an experienced tradesperson. Those people gladly pay the going rate to have a hassle free business transaction.
One of my first jobs was in a neon shop who always had price shoppers coming in and taking up valuable staff hours nitpicking over the smallest things and it always seem to be “so and so downt the road would do it cheaper”. It was fun watching the boss point out another competitor across the street and show the timewaster out the door, often clicking the lock to make the point. That company started off as a 3-man operation and eventually grew to 20+ then got bought up by a major competitor when it became a serious threat to that competitor.
Thank you, VOR.
I really care about this issue, because I see far too many people just starting out who don’t understand the value of their work. Somehow, designers don’t have the same confidence about their work that other professionals do.
Somehow, there is a myth about design that it is like a hobby or something, and that it is just something people do for free, to “jazz things up” for the fun of it.
When people go to a big festival—with giant automotive and technology sponsors !!!— they assume that—OF COURSE the tent-rental company gets paid, the lighting and sound people get paid, the people serving the drinks get paid, the guy in the parking booth gets paid . . . but they go into shock at the very thought that the designer who spent 8 months designing and project managing the posters, programmes, signage and t-shirts should get even a penny for their efforts. WHAT? They’re not volunteers?
I get angry when I see young designers being exploited when trying to get their start in what should be a very good way to make a living. I make a point of emphasizing being conscious of hourly rates because it’s easy for an inexperienced person to get sucked into a nice-sounding project rate (Ooooh! Three Thousand dollars!!) without realizing you could end up working for 2 dollars an hour for the better part of a year—and that does NOT pay the rent in ANY apartment in Halifax that I have been able to find.
One last thing about supply and demand. Yes, that’s a tricky issue in any business. If you get too many designers “out there” undercutting each other, the prices you can charge goes down. There are areas of design where this is the reality. (But I maintain it’s not in the same league as what I’m doing, so it is not direct “competition.”) But the overall rates can never go TOO low, otherwise people like me would simply leave the business and go into another, higher paying job—and there would be fewer people at the “senior” skill level in the marketplace.
I really wish high schools and universities spent more time talking about the realities of salaries in the workplace. I’m not a person who lives for money by any means. But I believe in taking proper care of what little money one does have, so that they have freedom and peace of mind in all the other, more important areas of their life.