I’ve noticed this disturbing trend: many of my friends are planning to get married. I feel like they have no idea what they’re getting into, especially given the divorce stats. What’s wrong with just being boyfriend and girlfriend at this stage in life (to clarify, early 20s)? What is the big hurry to become legally bound to someone? Like maybe I could understand if any of my friends were religious, but they’re not! Sure, I’ve discussed the idea of kids and marriage with my boyfriend, but at least he’s with me on waiting a few more years to try it out. What’s the rush, people?
—Not settling
This article appears in Jul 23-29, 2009.
Does your boyfriend know you’re “not settling” on him? I’ll bet if he did this bitch would read all together different, another boring break-up story.
Maybe it’s because your friends are in love? Can’t you just be happy for them?
Just because marriage is not important to you doesn’t mean that it’s not important to others. Your current situation with your boyfriend is right for you, so how how does your friends getting married affect you? Get over yourself.
Marriage is archaic and pretty much void of meaning given the availability of common-law status. Marriage ought to be reserved for religious zealots or the naive. It’s a financial contract and, people who claim the opposite are kidding themselves.
Not Settling has every right to be concerned for her friends. She’ll likely be dragged into their divorce proceedings anyway. She should want to try and avoid that–what a pain.
I respectfully disagree, Leftist.
I believe very much in marriage, yet I am as far from religious as you can get. I was married in a non-denominal ceremony, officiated by a JOP, on a beautiful beach, surrounded by 10 people who mean the world to me.
Marriage is not about a financial contract to me, and never will be. It’s about the deepest committment I’ll every make, to the person I love more than anyone else in the world.
As progressive as I am in many aspects, I’m still a traditionalist when it comes to marriage. I like the idea that my children – if and when I have them – will have married parents. I like that we will have a common family name. I like that I get to refer to my partner as my husband. Not my boyfriend, not my common law, but my husband.
I’m not for a second saying everyone should feel the way I do. I completely respect a couple’s choice not to get married, as I do a woman’s decision to keep her name. It personal, and no one will ever be right or wrong in what they choose.
Just don’t tell me that marriage is a sham.
Hey Leftist: You wouldn’t be divorced by any chance? Sounds like you’re speaking from a personal experience.
People are living longer these days, so how can you possibly know someone you’re marrying at 21 will be right for you 30 or 40 years down the road?
Some of you on here are so quick to jump to conclusions. This bitch isn’t about not settling, it’s about people getting married way too early or young. Stick to the point.
– OP
I was 29 when I got married – is that too young, in your opinion, OP? Guava?
“how can you possibly know someone you’re marrying at 21 will be right for you 30 or 40 years down the road?”
So what is the age when you will know it’s right? 30? 40? 50? Of course there are no certainties in life, but what does age have to do with it? To me it’s a question of maturity. And some people are ready when they’re in their early 20s. Some people are not.
‘sex before marriage’ suddenly takes on new meaning
Jennie: I’m not sure why my opinion should matter to you personally, but since you asked, I’m going to make a wild assumption that when you got married, you didn’t do it because you watched one too many episodes of those wedding shows on Slice or W Network. I’m also going to assume that you didn’t make the decision to wed because you felt if you didn’t, you’d be alone forever. I’m also pretty certain you thought the whole thing through before you made your decision, whereas the people I’m specifically talking about clearly have not and are rushing into it. I’m not anti-marriage, Jennie, I’m more anti-divorce and all the stupid crap that comes along with divorce that Leftist mentioned. And yes, I know nobody gets married intending to get divorced later, but it happens all the time unfortunately.
Nevermind – You’re absolutely right, it is a question of maturity. The people I’m discussing (who happen to be in their late teens-early 20s) are not thinking it out long-term. It’s like those couples who decide to move in together and sign a year long lease, only to break up and be stuck together and miserable (for a period). Sure, it seemed like a good idea at the time, but unlike a lease that expires, divorce is an expensive, nasty endeavor.
Kay – What’s wrong with sex before marriage?
And again I put this out there: What is the rush? If you truly love someone, why should it matter if you wait a few years to get married? Just asking.
I think many people jump into it before thinking it through. Its like a new trend or something. One of my neighbors was rubbing her upcoming wedding in my face. Her and her bf has been together less time then me and mine and she thinks it odd that I don’t have a ring on my finger. I think they’re rushing things. I’m only 25 and in no hurry to get married. I’m happy either way. Its a big deal and I see so many people taking it casually. I have to agree with the op on this one.
What’s wrong with sex before marriage? Many single parents and their bastard children could answer that one better than I. Doctors treating teenagers for sexually transmitted diseases that render them infertile could also shed some light. I think marriage would have retained its sanctity if society had retained this value. Go ask the fatherless child what’s wrong with sex before marriage… ask them during puberty how that missing parent/influence has affected their lives then ask them again once they’re adults.
Yesterday… if you court her for more than a year without marrying her, you’re likely gay. Today… if you marry without fucking her for many years first, you’re likely parent-pleasing gay and if you marry her because you love her your fellows think you’re stupid stupid stupid.
The “rules” of courtship used to be plain because way back then sex was about responsible procreation and marriage would facilitate all of it. Today, anything goes. Kids may or may not have two parents as a result of choice rather than tragedy. Today, it’s perfectly acceptable to raise your children thinking marriage is a terrible and unnatural thing that revolves around money… all while the gay population fight for their right to do it. *shakes head*
Just one more point… how many cherries does a girl have to pop? What does this tell you about sex before marriage? It’s not like it’ll grow back.
“Just one more point… how many cherries does a girl have to pop? What does this tell you about sex before marriage? It’s not like it’ll grow back.”
Really Kay? Really? Did you keep your daughter from using tampons, too? I mean, they’ve been known to pop a few cherries.
As for your point of kids being treated for STD’s that make them infertile, perhaps if more open minded parents (the ones you seem to despise) had educated their children about safe sex or schools were allowed to provide contraception, more kids would make informed choices. Would it prevent them from having sex? Probably not. Could it prevent disease and teenage pregnancy? I think so.
My parents were quite open with my sister and I about sex from the time just prior to our trip into the hell that is known as puberty. We both waited until we were in university; I was actually 21. Mom also told me, when I asked her thoughts on premarital sex, that you don’t buy a car without taking it for a test drive first. Parents need to be honest with their kids, which is unfortunately not happening. Or they’re telling them that sex is dirty and only a ‘chore’ of a married woman (this was told to a friend by her mother!!).
Yes, the ‘rules’ of courtship have changed. So have the ‘rules’ of how to treat women and people of other ethnicities. Should we go back to those archaic ways so us women can be ‘properly courted’ and protect our cherries?
Wow Kay… You’re an ignorant bitch. I’m a unmarried mom. My daughter doesn’t know her father, his choice. Its sad and it sucks but it would have happened if we were married or not. Open your fucking eyes. Waiting until your married does not prevent unplanned pregnancys. Children would much rather come from a broken home then live in one. I raised my child by myself for most of her life and it takes a strong woman to do that. I see a lot of people breaking up and getting divorces and the kids stuck in the middle of that and all I can think is thank fucking goodness I did not make that mistake. My child is more then happy being a “bastard” then being in the middle of two feuding parents.
The reason why kids are having babys young and getting STIs is because they’re not being properly educated about it. Not because they’re having sex before marriage.
Actually YES… I DO advise young virgins NOT to go popping their own cherries with tampons, toys or boys! Please tell me how that’s wrong or closed minded. You would advise something different? I’m not closed minded, fool! I just don’t teach my kids how to be homosexuals and if that’s your issue with my post you’re posting under the wrong thread. I also advise my kids not to fuck animals. Is that too closed minded for ya too?
I’ll tell you what works best to avoid STD’s and unwanted teen pregnancy: ABSTINENCE… can’t even compare to a condom. How’s that for enabling your children with an open-minded and practical education? It forces big bad words into the conversation like chlamydia, AIDS, single parenthood, abandonment, masturbation and harem. Still too closed minded for ya?
I’m not sure about your kids but my kids and everybody’s kids whom I’ve gotten to know will take a mile when given an inch, especially the smart ones. Oh, and I was a teenager too guilty of exactly the same ambition. Hanging a condom receptacle in a school tells ALL students they SHOULD be having sex and NOT the other way around despite whatever sex ed may couple the machine. You’ll notice sex ed is offered in schools and we still have teenagers catching aids and popping kids out before they’ve ever had a job let alone a diploma.
Besides, if you’re mature enough to deal with the consequences of premarital sex you’re certainly mature enough to purchase a box of condoms from the drug store.
Be honest with your kids and, sure, take a test drive but do it once you’re an adult who can roll with the consequences rather than filling out a welfare application and learning to sue for child support being the end all and be all of their lives. There’s also that old adage your open minded mother may have failed to enlighten you with but, “why buy the cow when the milk is free”?
I think today girls are NOT taught that sex is a chore the way our parents and their parents might have thought. Not so much as sex is a weapon today or something that woman have over men… heterosexual men that is.
So, yes, the rules have changed/relaxed/disappeared but is that for the better? It doesn’t mean premarital sex is a good thing to teach to your children. It doesn’t mean premarital sex won’t ruin your girl’s self esteem, leave her single with unwanted children or protect her from disease. If anything, encouraging children to try it before they buy it removes the value of “the first time” totally and completely. Chastity. Dignity. Hello?!?!
How can broken cherries be a good thing in your world? In your children’s world? It’s good because they learn how to fuck before they learn any other adult skill? I respectfully disagree.
virgomom, I’ve been a single parent since I was 16. A dam fine one FAR from ignorant. My children have grown now but I wouldn’t recommend setting out to become a single parent on purpose. Would you? Really?
And the reason why kids are having babies young and getting STIs is because they’re… having sex. Hello?
oh and, virgomom, if you had married him before having his baby there’s no doubt in my mind he’d know the child. You wouldn’t have married him if it weren’t a fair-long-term loving relationship. His parents would want to know the child whether the marriage survived pregnancy or not. Your life would have been much different had you not had premarital sex… just like mine would have been. I’d rather my daughter have something different. Wouldn’t you?
FYI just because you don’t marry someone doesn’t mean that if you split up they won’t be entitled to the home you shared, the pension you’ve earned, your garnished wages, etc. etc. Common-law spouses have the same rights as legally wed ones. So if you’re avoiding marriage in order to avoid divorce, then that’s a little foolish.
I want to get married to my partner (no ceremony, just at city hall or whatever) because, to me, it’s the ultimate commitment. I know that, for a lot of people, it’s nothing but a little piece of paper and I respect that but maybe I was just raised to beleive it is important.
Common-law spouses have ZERO marital rights unless you can make a strong case of dependency on them so what are you talking about, jen? Unless the asset has BOTH names the asset is owned by a not-married-individual and your pension is quite yours. Please explain.
Oh Kay…where the hell did I mention homosexuality in my post? I’ve noticed that somehow always tends to crop up in your posts, regardless of anything else…why is that?
So, to keep your cherry intact, you would suggest that girls NOT use tampons?? That’s a head shaker for me.
I agree with virgomom, and it’s something I stated in my first post; EDUCATION is the key to keeping kids from having unwanted pregnancies and getting STD’s. Included in that education, abstinence SHOULD be taught. If you teach your kids BOTH sides, and the risks & ramifications, you’re parenting. By only teaching one side of an issue, you’re biasing them with your own opinion. That’s what my parents did. They talked to us about both sides and, knowing that we had our own brains, trusted us enough to make our own decisions. My parents made our home environment open, honest & loving, so neither of us felt shame or hesitation in talking to them about anything-including sex.
You’ve said several times before that you enjoy your sex life with your husband. While I realize he’s your husband, how can you then claim we should teach young girls that sex IS a chore? A chore is typically not something that is considered enjoyable. Another head shaker.
If your children do not have morals by the time sex comes into the picture, than you (I mean generally, NOT specifically) may not have done your job as a parent in teaching these things from the beginning.
And, good ole open minded Mom DID teach me that old adage; I swear she could have whole conversations with adages, old wive’s tales, etc! She taught us to respect ourselves first and foremost. THAT was one of my parent’s most valuable lessons.
Kay & Jennier, I did some quick research and found the following regarding common law:
Nova Scotia Common Law Property Division
For common law couples in Nova Scotia, the property division apply.
You must live together for 2 years to be considered common law spouses.
Once you’ve lived together for 2 years, you have the right to receive or obligation to pay spousal support.
As well, the ordinary estate rules apply.
Domestic Partnerships
In Nova Scotia, common law couples can register their relationship with the government as domestic partners.
If you register as a domestic partnership, then you have all the same family law rights as married couples do, including rights of property division, spousal support and succession rights on intestacy.
While a common law relationship is over when it’s over, you must formally dissolve a domestic partnership.
This can be done by filing a joint Statement of Termination or a sworn statement by one person stating that there has been a separation for at least one year, with the Vital Statistics Office, filing a separation agreement with the court or marrying someone else.
Here’s the link: http://www.common-law-separation-canada.co…
I’m goin with the OP on this one.
There are a LOT of early 20 year olds getting married; and the ones that I know were only with their significant other for maybe a year or two.
As for the kids having kids… That really is their own fuck up. I won’t blame the parents, the education system, or religion. That’s right the blame is the 17-year-old-twit who thought they knew everything.
“I think today girls are NOT taught that sex is a chore”
note the capital letters, shoe_chick
to keep your cherry intact do not use tampons. YES. correct.
education education education
By discussing abstinence you are discussing premarital sex. The discussion inherently calls for views of “both sides”. It cannot be avoided unless one is dictating and not parenting so we generally agree, shoe.
To be truthful and with 20/20 hindsight, I’d never marry a guy who was under 35. It’s not a magic number or anything I’ve just noticed men don’t change much after that. Pick the winner after the race is run, sorta thing.
Girls need to be educated fully about everything. Waiting until marriage, birth control, STIs, pregnancy and all the choices that go with that. They need to be imformed. If they’re imformed properly about everything, then yes, its on them.
As for marriage. I think you can be ready at 20 to get married. My problem with it is more that I see people, in they’re 20s, 30s and some 40s getting married to quick. That’s my problem with it. What’s the rush?? Wait a couppe years and make sure its right before you make that commitment.
“sex is a chore”.
Wow. That is truly, truly sad. What a terrible way to experience life and all it has to offer.
Agreed, kay…we are agreeing =) Education is key, with pretty much everything in life.
As for getting married in your early twenties, I also agree with you virgomom. People just seem to be getting married after a very short relationship. While my parents got married quite young, they had been together for several years. Friends of mine who got married in their mid twenties had also been together for 7 years. To quote virgomom ‘What’s the rush??’
So Kay, let’s say everyone waits until the guy is 35 to get married. We’ll assume that the women marrying these men are close in age. So everyone’s waiting until age 35-ish to have sex.
I assume you’re aware that conceiving after the age of 35 becomes exponentially more difficult. And that a woman’s chance of carrying a child with Downe Syndrome or some other disability dramatically increase at 35+.
Given your rantings on “sex for procreation” of late, I would think you wouldn’t want us all getting out there and populating the world well before any of that.
Sorry – WOULD want us all getting out there…
I didn’t comment on how old a girl should be. All I know is the guys I’ve known didn’t start behaving like men until well into their thirties.
Yes, but most (not all) of the couples I know are relatively close in age. Maybe that’s just my circle…
Arg. Sigh.
Ya know Kay, I DO sort of see what you are trying to say here, even though it is WAY OFF TOPIC.
Look, I know some—OK MANY—people DO behave as if sex has no consequences, and then suffer disastrous results. I REALLY DO understand that you want your kids to grow up to be responsible adults, who treat themselves and others with respect.
I just wish you would PLEASE KEEP THE ISSUES SEPARATE.
Young irresponsible, uninformed, misguided kids having “pre-marital” sex is not the same as responsible, informed adults having “pre-marital” sex.
The issue of “popping the cherry” just made me laugh—with the normal physical activities of girls today, the “hymen” is no longer the barrier it was in the olden days, when girls were immobile, corseted “ladies” who were married off as teenagers. Modern-day virgins leave very little to show off to the neighbors, you know.
And using tampons does not mean loss of virginity! Loss of virginity means having actual sex, and all the risks, pains, and pleasures that go along with it. Tampons are just a hygienic convenience, not a sexual implement. (That topic sure came out of nowhere! GACK!)
Also, some of us out here can’t or won’t be having children for any number of reasons—none of which are your business—but I doubt we will all stop having sex for the rest of our lives just to please you. So, the old “sex for procreation” lecture is tiresome and futile, especially for those of us over 40 who no longer go to Sunday School.
And finally, I really wish you could be more respectful towards those PEOPLE—my FRIENDS, my FAMILY MEMBERS—who are gay and/or have gay loved ones. It is very misinformed to equate gayness (and all the sex practices between consenting adults that you are free to do or not do) with bestiality or child abuse. That old argument will simply not go over well with this crowd, and you will be challenged on it every time.
No one is asking you to become gay, Kay, they are just letting you know that they are not going to run back into the closet just because you’re the one who is uncomfortable.
And besides, if I’m gay, I hardly think I am in the same category as those unmarried-teen-mother-welfare-queens-with-kids-of-different-dads that seem to scare you so much—how that can be blamed on those of us who are having all that terrible “non-procreative sex” is beyond me.
I don’t mind that you express strong opinions; it’s what keeps this forum interesting. Just remember that the readership is mostly pretty firmly liberal, and not all Christian, and don’t appreciate being equated with criminals by those with conservative or traditional views.
I am sorry, Kay, but not matter how well or how many times you state your case, we cannot change who we are, how we are made. Many of us, of many ages, read the Coast precisely BECAUSE it is generally gay-friendly and sex-positive. (There are other, more conservative, publications out there, you know.) In spite of what you may believe, just being gay or respecting gay people doesn’t mean supporting going around having depraved sex with everyone and everything in sight. Sheesh! I think you know better than that.
Yes, I know it’s a bitching forum, but you treat it as a personal soapbox for conservative and religious opinions that many of us have spent years trying to escape from.
It’s that “treating others with respect” thing that I mentioned earlier.
I love this new section by the way. I can see already that it will provide hours of entertainment.
And now, we return to our regularly scheduled hitch-bitch-fest.
Rubyjane – amen to that! You said exactly what I wanted to buy didn’t know how to word it.
I just want to address something Kay had said earlier…
“oh and, virgomom, if you had married him before having his baby there’s no doubt in my mind he’d know the child”
Okay, and right quickly look up the statistic for divorces. So really, if VirgoMom had’ve married the child’s father before giving birth it’d be just as likely he would’ve walked out.
My dad walked out on me and my mom, and they were married. I’m sure I’m not the only person that’s been in that case.
Another fact, is most people tend to let themselves go after marriage. That being said, the sooner someone gets married… well… I don’t think I have to spell this one out
Do you avoid starting grade 12 because you might not finish? Do you avoid getting a job because you might get fired? Do you avoid digging in because you might not be able to finish off a meal? Didn’t think so. Try getting child support from your ex-boyfriend and then try getting it from your ex-husband. Same game, much bigger ball.
Ruby, the post is about getting married too young. How I’m commenting off topic is a mystery. Sex before marriage is completely related so go dry your hair or something. The hymen serves the same function it did when human beings were created and evolution has not changed that. Shake that head while under the dryer and look up the definition of chastity while you’re at it. It’s not a far leap to speak of virginity while discussing premarital sex and getting married too young. Tampons WILL snap your hymen (if you had one). Shake harder, indeed. Raising your children to embrace certain values concerning their sexuality is also not a far leap, especially while defending against a closed-minded-bitch comment. If a girl is taught chastity is not valuable she’ll behave and develop much differently than a girl who’s taught otherwise. (this is why my stance on legalized prostitution is negative)
“unmarried-teen-mother-welfare-queens-with-kids-of-different-dads” should scare you too… are you a tax payer? Then you’re paying to raise most of these kids and the mothers hardly ever make anything of themselves. Happy to say I’m a grand exception.
You’re gay and can’t have kids? Pick your partner, I don’t care. Looking at the behavior of those involved with the gay pride parade it’s easy pickin’s for ya.
“don’t appreciate being equated with criminals by those with conservative or traditional views” WTF are you talking about? Somebody get the tar and feathers!
You’re fucking dreaming if you think this publication, especially this section, is here for your homo pleasure and not mine as a straight chick.
Question for ya, Ruby… treating others with respect. Does that include cramming homosexuality down the throats of straight chicks and parading the concept past her front door as loudly as possible? It’s works both ways.
“most people tend to let themselves go after marriage”… I didn’t. I respectfully disagree and this is a crazy reason not to marry someone you love.
I disagree with everything Kay said except her last commont – not all married people let themselves go. I’ve been married for over 3 years, and neither my husband nor myself have let ourselves go. We both still exercise regularly, and are both in great shape.
Yeah, I chose not to comment on the spew that came out of kay becuz she doesn’t know the situation. He wouldve left anyway. And no it wasnt a “fair and loving relationship”. I was 16 and he was 24 taking advantage of a child who was going thru a divorce with her parents.
I will be teaching my daughter about safe sex. I want her to enjoy one of worlds greatest pleasures, safely. My education on that subject was shit. Sex ed right now in schools is a joke and needs a lot of improving.I’m smart enough to know that in this day and age, she will probably try sex well before she’s married. I also know that she will try it umformed, not only on the physical but emotional too.
And my first time, was wonderful and with my best friend. I was lucky becuz I don’t regret it.
As for the hymen stuff, you can break your hymen in gymnastics, horse back riding, riding a bike, lots of activities depending on your bodys made. So if your childs hymen broke that way, would she still be damaged goods?
It’s not about “damaged goods”. It’s nature’s way of telling you the importance of things. Your denial certainly does not change nature.Go ask a medical doctor how riding a bike can break a girl’s hymen. Have fun with that, should be a real eye opener for you and your daughters.
I just love sweeping statements like “the spew… blah blah blah” It shows how very limited your mind is and how very big those blinders are.
Enjoy your denial, “ladies”. I’m sure your daughters will appreciate all the good sex that comes from fear of divorce or whatever.
“He wouldve left anyway. And no it wasnt a ‘fair and loving relationship'”… then what are you doing fucking the guy? Idiot. And now you’d hope for such a future for your daughter as well? You’re fucked in the head. Good on ya!
Common sense just ain’t so common around here. I wonder why?
kay, clearly you’re the idiot. If you’d read virgomom’s post (the one directly before yours) you would have read:
‘And no it wasnt a “fair and loving relationship”. I was 16 and he was 24 taking advantage of a child who was going thru a divorce with her parents.’
Clearly, at 16 and having your parents go through a divorce, she was vulnerable.
virgomom, sorry to speak for you, but that just pissed me off!!
If she had had it in her head to save “it” for marriage and not engage in premarital sex the 24 year old would have had nothing to take advantage of (or child to diddle).
I said MOST people let themselves go… Not everyone
So, if someone takes advantage of you, it’s always your fault?? You have to be perfect all the time and not ever let your guard down and trust someone? That’s a sad way to live…never opening up to someone, bearing everything alone.
I find kay’s comments frightening. Am I alone? When I read this “It shows how very limited your mind is and how very big those blinders are” it sent a shiver down my spine. (It was like she was talking about herself, but she wasn’t.)
“It forces big bad words into the conversation like chlamydia, AIDS, single parenthood, abandonment, masturbation and harem.”
WOW Kay, since when is “masturbation” a “big bad word”? I realize that there has been tons of feedback on your comments, but I just wanted to throw that one out there….WOW
Enjoying a nice bottle of wine is an adult pleasure with adult consequences. I’m sure you’d want your daughter to enjoy this pleasure and surely she’ll try a sip before she’s legally allowed but does that mean you pour it down her throat? Buy it for her and her friends? Is that your job as her parent?
Tobacco is legal yet it kills. Some adults smoke and some really enjoy it and they don’t even die of cancer. Does this mean we prepare our children to smoke? Do we prepare them to smoke pot too since many kids try that before they’re out of school and many adults continue to smoke weed? So, do you go buy your daughter a dime bag and some papers and teach her how to not burn the house down while smoking? Is that your job as parent?
Didn’t think so.
open-minded enough for ya sj?
Thank you shoe chick. Kay is just to close minded and too worried about being “right” to see anything. Her type will never even try to see other peoples point of views. Or feelings for that matter. I’m happy to know that I’m not raising my child to be judgemental of others.
Have fun in your litle bubble kay. I’m not wasting any more time on you. Its obvious that your just a web troll who thrives on drama and being disrespectful. Losers like you are a waste of space. I feel bad for your kids and those you pushed your “beliefs” onto. Your backwards and hopefully your kids will learn to not be so judgemental by watching you.
“You have to be perfect all the time and not ever let your guard down and trust someone?”
What the heck are you talking about, shoe?
How come, in this town in particular, when somebody asserts themselves and backs their position with reason you fucks think of them being “judgmental” or something else really really terrible? Can my position not be the result of learning from a hard life and finding success where others fail rather than the result of some stuck up, holier than thou, snobbery? Maybe I’m just like you but learned these lessons for real, the hard way. I’m not being obtuse. I’m not being an ass. I have a conclusion based on a lot of negative yet REAL LIFE experience likely similar to your own single-parented fucked up lives. Geesh
I really can’t get over all the “cherry” talk on this thread. Does anyone in 2009 actually even think about hymens anymore? What is this? 16th Century Persia?
Jennie, are you virgomom’s daughter? Wouldn’t surprise me. Do you think chastity is a 19th century ideal too?
No Kay, I’m not. I believe I’m actually older than Virgomom.
I don’t believe that chastity is a 19th century ideal. I think it’s an extremely personal choice that a person makes when they take into account a variety of factors – family, spirituality, etc. While I did not choose to remain chaste until marriage, I respect someone else’s decision to do so. Who am I to tell them what’s right or wrong?
When I have children, I hope that my children take sex very seriously. It will be my job, as a parent, to give them ALL the information I can – on chastity, on save sex, on pregnancy, on STIs – everything. Ultimately it will be up to them to decide. I just hope I’ll do a good job arming them with information so they can make responsible decisions. Hopefully, by doing so, they’ll grow up understanding that sex is wonderful and beautiful and pleasurable, not something they should ever be ashamed of.
Kay, in NO WAY does masturbation lead to STIs, harems, unwanted pregnancy, or any of the other things you refer to. Masturbation is a natural occurrence. Animals do it (you will note that animals do not smoke “reefer” or drink wine). We are essentially animals, natural beings (whether you like to think so or not). ‘Nuff said. I’m done.
Lol my kids not old enough to have an account on the coast. And I’m hope that when I’m kays age that all the stuff I’ve been through and will probably go through doesn’t turn me into a judgemental, close minded moron.
Kay, what does the subject of someone’s friends getting married in their 20s have to do with to unmarried teenagers having irresponsible sex with gazillions of random partners? It sounds like the people mentioned in the original post are doing just the opposite of that. Her friend worries they may be “settling” or buying into something that won’t make them happy. Um, not a bad question to have at that age.
As a taxpayer, I am no happier than you are to see Social Services have to step in to pick up the pieces of people’s wrecked lives. But those people did not get into those horrific situations because of anything I do or don’t do in the bedroom. I only mentioned the child-bearing point because you seem to think I am out corrupting the morals of the youth or something, out there “teaching” kids to become gay.
There is simply no need to be so venomous on the gay issues. OK, it’s not for you; OK, the more flamboyant stuff makes you uncomfortable to think about, but you go so far beyond just simple disagreement. Surely you have seen the cover of last week’s Coast—you know the subject matter they feature—and yet you remain a regular reader and contributor to the forums. You know that opinions more akin to “Alberta Report” will be vigourously challenged—and that the expression “shoving xxxxxx issue down my throat” is a very tired and tedious Alberta cliché, by the way.
Honestly, I really don’t understand what you are trying to achieve with your posts—Do you want everybody else not making babies to stop having sex, is that it? Do you want more babies or fewer babies being made? Do you want all the divorced people to get back together? Do you want the pride parade shut down? What? Please clarify, as I would really like to know.
It’s the level of personal insult that you attach to your opinions that poisons all these discussions. Someone voices support for adult sexual rights, as would be expected in this kind of publication, and they get the blame for all the unplanned and abused children in the world. This is where you take the conversations off the rails. Just DIAL IT BACK a bit, and stop making everything into a lecture on family values. This isn’t the place. If you are trying to teach us something, you are making it pretty difficult to figure out exactly what it is.
And I do take offense to being equated with criminals because of what I or my acquaintances choose to do or not do in the bedroom. You have all gay people painted as scary weirdo degenerates in your mind, not realizing that I and the people I am defending to are good, kind, successful, responsible, respectable people, who actually to have some basic core human values in common with you. (God, I can’t believe you don’t know a single gay person who could so quickly refute all your worst stereotypes. You’ve never met one?? Not ONE???)
Honestly, Kay, if you met me, you would know that I am a very nice, kind, ordinary person, maybe even a bit on the conservative side myself, considering. I’m not some scary monster out to harm you or your family or convice them that they should do stuff that is dangerous or illegal. And at the other end of the spectrum, I also have many friends who are quite conservative and traditionally Christian or Muslim—but they are NOT HATEFUL about their differing views. THAT is the difference. THAT is why we can be friends. THAT is what people are trying to tell you.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m not actually gay, (if you read my other posts you would know that I am very happily married) but I have no problem with people being gay. It’s just part of what makes life interesting. But I will defend my close friends and family members—whom I love, respect and adore—every single time people like you drag out the insults and misinformation.
I didn’t see the parade this year myself, but it sounds like you were pretty interested in it. How was it?
By the way, are you sure I don’t know you from the University of Alberta circa 1988, because I think you and I may have crossed paths on this very topic before. Well it’s more than 20 years later, Kay, and the laws are on my side now. So if you don’t like that, I think you should write to Mr. Stephen Harper of the Conservative Party instead of dumping all your prejudices on those of us who enjoy this column for other reasons. I moved 3000 miles to get away from all the bullshit that goes on in Alberta, so right-wing conservatism won’t be getting a sympathetic ear from me.
Rubyjane is my hero.
Thank you for articulating what so many of us can’t.
I agree, again and thank you, again.
I don’t even touch the homophobic issues with her, its too personal. She’s everything I strive not to be.
My comments are all about the upbringing of a child guiding the choices they’ll ultimately make (as a result of YOUR parenting) as a young adult including marrying young or engaging in premarital sex. Jennie said it really well. “arming them with information so they can make responsible decisions”. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t mean showing them porn or all the possibilities on that level. It means teaching self-respect and providing facts and opinions but also how to protecting oneself with discipline.
Example. You don’t show your kids a bunch of chocolate before bedtime to demonstrate the problems with obesity or tooth decay… not unless you want an obese child with rotting teeth crawling under the covers at night. You don’t hang condom machines in the kids bathroom either.
Thanks for clearing that up, sj *insert eye roll here*
Ruby Ruby Ruby. Doesn’t that just say it all? Gimme a minute I’ll cook one up for ya
I loved your post, RubyJane!! Well said. Thank you for taking the time to write it. The posts written by others in opposition to kay’s hateful words make me feel good about humanity today, as though we can actually to be a kinder society.
Kay, you can’t possibly begin to give a child ALL the facts if you regard gay people, as well as those who engage in premarital sex, with such contempt.
Like it or not, you could have a child who’s gay. Or one who engages in sex at a young age, well before marriage. Any of us could. All we can do is hope for the best. I hope that by talking to my children about love, sex, homosexuality, diseases, pregnancy, and anything else – with an open mind – that they’ll be comfortable making good choices for them, and comfortable talking to me when they inevitably are confused and have questions.
Ruby, “what does the subject of someone’s friends getting married in their 20s have to do with to unmarried teenagers having irresponsible sex”
Well, it used to be you waited to have sex until you were married. Some still possess such a value. Getting married in your 20’s or sooner would be a top priority if you hadn’t had some good sex by then, don’t ya think? (sj, that’s why masturbation gets to be part of the big scary talk)
Ruby, “those people did not get into those horrific situations because of anything I do or don’t do in the bedroom”
No. Of course not. But are you a parent? Are you teaching sex is fun for horny kids or would you have something else in mind for your daughter’s chastity? For your son’s right to an education rather than getting a job to pay all that nasty support?
Funny you mention AB, Ruby. I was pretty much unaffected by what goes on in a homosexual’s bedroom when I lived there. Halifax Gay Pride week is the first that’s been thrust in front of my family like this.
What do I try to achieve with my posts? I’m just putting an opinion out there, Ruby. I back up my position. Maybe parents think twice about smoking a joint with their kid or buying them beer for their party or a girly magazine for the strappin’ young fella. Have you seen what the pill does to the world’s water? Have you seen what happens to a girls mood when she goes off of it? Maybe we’ve been too liberal? Maybe people read my posts and take a step back for a new perspective or maybe they get all insulted in perceiving personal attacks. We all have our motives, Ruby and no you don’t know me.
heron, “kay’s hateful words”
I see none here.
Didn’t really wanna get in on this war here but…
RubyJane, all the power to you. I couldn’t have said any of that better myself.
And Kay, what kind of twisted stick do you have shoved up so far up your ass. Take it out already. Stop acting like you’re the only one who “had a hard life and learned the hard way”.
Jennie, “with such contempt”
It’s not contempt. It’s what I perceive to be the difference between right and wrong and my right and my job to impose such a lifestyle onto my children. Of course they get to choose in the end! We all do! All we get as parents are about the first 11 years, less with girls. After that it’s up to them to accept or oppose parental values. Children need leadership from their parents not friendship, not porn, not condoms.
and what have you learned along the way, mimi?
A lot of kay’s stuff has scared me. But,as I reflect back on her words, one thing has reduced me to tears of laughter. kay is sugggesting that all men *should* wait until at least age 35 to have sex, without masturbating. (If I add up: “must wait until marriage to have sex” ++ “women shouldn’t marry men under 35” ++ “masturbating=bad”). Imagine for a second that society! Ha ha ha! Was’t that fun, but surely unrealistic?
I’m sorry Kay, but using the word “faggot” to refer to a gay person – which you have indeed written – is absolutely dripping with contempt.
Everyone alive knows that’s a derogatory term – a smart girl like you included.
And Kay I can’t remember anyone on this board suggesting children should be exposed to porn. Obviously no one thinks that’s a good idea. There are plenty of ways to teach young people about sex – all kinds of sex (i.e. for pleasure, for procreation, alone, with another person, with a person of the same gender) – without showing them pornography.
Stop being ridiculous.
your age becomes apparent when you say stupid shit like that, heron. My words were, “All I know is the guys I’ve known didn’t start behaving like men until well into their thirties”. Most of the men I know think monogamy is some kind of wood. I look to nature and I see pair-bonding animals doing it for a lifetime, not for a roll in the hay. We’re human beings. We get to choose cognizant of these examples. I think we should choose well and not while we’re young. What do we know when we’re young? What expectations from our youth stays the same?
Oh Jennie, sure glad I got your attention on that other thread. I meant every drip in that context but this thread is about marrying young.
DID YA GET THAT RUBY?
Kay, OF COURSE most responsible parents want what’s best for their children. OF COURSE responsible parents don’t give their kids junk food and porn and alcohol and drugs and OF COURSE we all get angry at those who do. (I worked for Alberta Social Services and I have seen more than my share of the evils that are perpetuated by adults on children.)
But even the most carefully- and lovingly-raised, smart, sensible children grow up to be independent autonomous adults that have a mind of their own, who MAY STILL CHOOSE to reject some or all of their parents values, religion, political views, careers, tastes in clothes, music, friends, etc. And sadly, despite your/our best intentions, they may even still make catastrophic mistakes or intentionally bad decisions.
Since you mentioned that you have learned much about the hard truths of real-life consequences through having endured difficulties yourself, I would expect you, of all people, to be more sympathetic to those who are struggling with similar problems and issues—who don’t yet know all that you have come to know. You, above all, should know that life doesn’t always work out as we would like it to, that people can do things to others that we have no control over.
Good parenting and good education is only part of the picture. Real life and human nature are way more complex than simple “rules for living” can contain.
If you have struggled and succeeded at building a good life for yourself, despite difficulties in the past, I actually think that is to be commended. But since you yourself know that life is not always easy, that some decisions that seem good at the time are not always so right in retrospect, that promises get broken, and some shit just happens that can’t be undone, I think you should hold back before dismissing someone else as nothing but a “fuck-up” just because their life hasn’t worked out as fortunately as yours.
There’s lots of stuff out there to be angry about—that’s why this column is here. But to attack others when they are struggling with something that once caused pain for you is beyond the rules of fair play in this kind of forum.
You complain that since you moved here, all the Nova Scotians don’t care for your judgements and tell you so. Well, Nova Scotia is a very different place than Alberta. You can’t just come down here and start preaching from the Reform Party playbook, and be surprised when your wisdom is rejected by the audience. It just doesn’t work here. Most people here (especially those who read the Coast) are not comfortable with the traditional family values rhetoric of the right wing, even if you ARE speaking from true and hard-won experience. They will push back when they hear it, because it is not a big part of the social climate in this part of the country, and they don’t want it to be. (Whether that would “fix” all those problems you see here is another issue for another time—but I didn’t see it working very well out West either.)
OF COURSE you have the right to express your opinion on what you like and dislike. But others have the right to respond, and if they do so en masse then that should tell you something about what you have waded into.
It is quite one thing to say that you disagree with the pride parade, that you don’t think teens should have sex, that “society” is too permissive . . . but quite another to call someone else on this forum a “fuck-up” because their parents divorced or they had a bad boyfriend.
If that’s not to your liking, I don’t know what else I can say.
It doesn’t matter when you used the term Kay, the point is you used it at all.
Anyone who knowingly uses such a hateful term obviously regards homosexuals with contempt.
It amuses me to see how people react to Kay. Why is it that it’s acceptable to teach our children that being gay is okay, but not acceptable to teach our children to prefer heterosexuality? Why is someone who chooses a hetero lifestyle for her family closed-minded?
I can also see Kay’s point about chastity and not having sex before marriage. How many unwanted pregnancies would we have if girls were actually taught to respect their bodies? How many girls would avoid being fucked and dumped and left alone to deal with an std or pregnancy if we taught them about not giving it up to everyone? Just because it feels good doesn’t mean it’s a good choice. It might work for the boys, but the girls aint so lucky.
Liberalism as a whole is not as liberating as it promises to be, especially not when you think about the consequences for women in terms of sexual conduct and its consequences.
“your age becomes apparent when you say stupid shit like that, heron”
What age is that? Just curious… you seem to think you know everything and this would be a quick way to prove to you otherwise.
Em, no one is saying choosing a heterosexual lifestyle is close-minded. I think the general consensus among most posters is to accept ALL lifestyles. To be tolerant, accepting, and loving of everyone – not just those who are like you.
“I think we should choose well and not while we’re young. What do we know when we’re young?”
I’m 21 and I still don’t know a damn thing except for that I’m lookin out for me, and I’m probably never ever going to have a child
New rule: No more responding to Kay. We are WAAAY off base from the original discussion. Kay, if you got beef with tampons and how they are deflowering an entire generation of innocent girls, write your own bitch.
I continue to stand by my original post about my friends rushing into marriage too early and too young. I did not mean to get all you married folk up in a tizzy, I’m sure you all thought it through before decided to make that decision for yourself. It’s my peers who are doing it because it’s trendy or because they think it’s the only way they’ll be happy that I foresee things becoming problematic. Thank you.
Splittin’ hairs now aren’t ya, Ruby?
“…dismissing someone else as nothing but a “fuck-up” just because their life hasn’t worked out…” I didn’t say that. I think it’s fucked up to encourage your daughter to “try it before you buy it” or to go condom shopping for your teen.
Who am I attacking? You Ruby? How?
I am ALWAYS surprised when “wisdom is rejected by [any] audience”. Why aren’t you?
Nuclear family and hetero sexual relationships is still by far the norm in the East and in the West, Ruby, despite your own social endeavors.
What isn’t working out west? What are you talking about?
Your en masse, which it isn’t, negative responses tell about the demographic of a single website readership and only a percentage of those respond, it’s NOT the opinion of the HRM majority… obviously.
heron, we typically equate ignorance and a penchant for dramatic-box-thinking with age. Words like “everything”, “always” and “never” show ignorance… or is it youth?
Em, ignore Jennie. It’s bullshit. Unless you EMBRACE a gay lifestyle and teach your children the same these bitches consider you ignorant, religious fanatic, closed-minded or you’re spreading hate because, you’re right, they’re offended by any practice that would not condone their lifestyle. Ever hear of reverse racism or reverse sexism? There you have it.
Guava, take your rule and your bitch and shove it where the sun don’t shine. You’re welcome.
RE: Kay’s Post at 3:01 (wasn’t up when I had started writing the last one.)
Sooooo . . . THIS?!?!?!?!? THIS is the root of the issue that’s causing all this agony? THIS is the source of the Great Gay Bitch-War of 2009?
That you had NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN a gay pride parade before moving here?
Didn’t you even know about it from TV or movies or the news?
I mean, you move here from one of the most conservative provinces in Canada and are just shocked—SHOCKED!— by the levels of liberalism you see here in teeny, tiny, tame little Halifax?
I am sorry, but I think that the responsibility to know a bit about the outside world, and a place you are moving to, is very firmly yours.
Have you ever seen what they do in San Francisco for gay pride? Yes, I will admit that it pushes even the limits of my own liberal standards, but for God’s sake I wouldn’t for one minute plan to go there and then act all shocked and surprised about it. I certainly wouldn’t move there and start criticizing them for it. It’s one of the reasons people live there!
Liberal cities, especially coastal cities, do things differently than you’re used to “back home.” And the “in your face” stuff that you see here is NOTHING compared to what goes on in New York, California, London, Berlin . . . even stodgy old Toronto can be over the top at times.
Did the parade really, literally, go by your actual front door? Did it truly scandalize you and your kids? (who are actually young adults themselves, not impressionable young children, right?)
Oh well, now you know that it goes on every year, so you can plan on maybe taking a few days out of town next time it happens. Don’t worry, you’ll know the schedule and the route well in advance because I am sure they will print it in the Coast!
Jennie, it seems that the tendency on these forums is to slam Kay for her choice to teach her children to be hetero. Coupled with criticisms about Kay being closed-minded, well…
As for this comment: “Most people here (especially those who read the Coast) are not comfortable with the traditional family values rhetoric of the right wing.” This is bullshit unless you’re ONLY talking about those who read the coast. From a national perspective, Nova Scotia (or the maritimes in general) seems to be considered a province that upholds traditional family roles (ie. happy mom and pop) over non-traditional family structures, moreso than other provinces.
Besides, what are traditional family values? If we’re talking about mother and father roles, then these values are not only espoused by the right wing.
I realize this is OT, but I love the phrases “teaching your children to be heterosexual” (or homosexual, for that matter), and “choosing a hetero lifestyle”. They make me laugh hard. I don’t think we get a choice in our sexuality. Some folks might refuse to accept their own sexuality, and force themselves to pretend, but I wouldn’t call that healthy. If your child is homosexual, you won’t be able to “teach” her to be hetero; all you will succeed in doing is creating a very unhappy faker.
Going off topic is a good thing–it get’s ppl to explore interesting spaces.
M’goo, are you suggesting that heterosexuality or homesexuality are only genetic? C’mon, are you assuming that our environment does nothing to impact our choice in the matter? Yeah, a parent might choose to encourage a hetero lifestyle, and that child might grow up to choose a homosexual lifestyle–at the most basic level, whatever we do in life is based on choice. So yeah, a parent can choose to teach his or her child to live like a hetero. Whether that kid chooses to pursue this lifestyle in the end of the day is another matter.
To the OP:
It is unfortunate that this long-festering argument has become attached to your most excellent original post, in this fabulous new section.
A lot of this has been building for a long time, and it just all came out today.
I wish you and your friends the best of luck.
Oh, and one last thing:
M’Goo has said EXACTLY what I have been trying to say in one single paragraph—he’s the WINNER as far as I am concerned.
Have fun, everyone!
Signing off for good,
RubyJane
Em, I think I love you.
I know some people who got married at 16 and 19, and have been married for 35 years. I know a couple who got engaged the first night they met, and married three months later; the last I saw of them, they were still in love with each other 30 years later.
I was married at 28, after we dated for a year, then lived together for a year. We thought we were mature and believed we were marrying for all the right reasons, and were quite happily married for many years. Eight years ago, I was diagnosed with long-term, clinical depression, and went into CB therapy. As I remembered who I was when I was happy, I realized I couldn’t be happy in my marriage any more. (It’s a long story.) After nearly 21 years of marriage, we will soon be divorced.
We were civilized about it. No children were involved, but if there had been, I might never have left him. The process wouldn’t be any easier if we had lived common-law.
The fact is, I am glad I was married, glad that it worked as well as it did for as long as it did, glad that my ex is doing very well for himself, and glad that I still have some good years to be my own person again.
Some relationships last “forever”; they aren’t always happy ones, but some are. Some only last for a time, and are treasured experiences, not hideous tragedies.
Let the shades of gray into your thinking, and let yourself imagine your friends succeeding, one way or another, beyond your imagination. Don’t doom people with your negative expectations.
Magoo’s exactly right Em – most of us on here wouldn’t dream of trying to “teach” a child to be one way or another. Those of us who are so outspoked about Kay believe it’s a good idea to make children aware that many different lifestyles exist, and no matter which one they end up practicing – heterosexuality, homosexuality, asexuality – they will still be a good person, deserving of love and respect.
As I mentioned a few weeks ago in another thread about homosexuality, one of my brothers is gay. When he was coming to terms with his sexuality a dozen years or so ago, he contemplated suicide. He thought he would be better off dead that gay. If he’s not the poster boy for the “homosexuality is not a choice” argument, I don’t know what it.
(And for the record, because I’m sure Kay will manage to twist this around in some way – my brother did not “learn” to be gay in our home. Myself and my other two siblings are heterosexual. My brother grew up playing hockey and football and doing all kinds of other “masculine” things. He is not gay because anyone encouraged him to be – he is gay because he was made that way.)
Is polygamy on that list too, Jennie? There’s a shit load of people who practice it in the world and most of the men I know are in big favour of it. Should we encourage that natural instinct in our children too?
I don’t see a problem in telling children (who are old enough to understand) that some people, in some parts of the world, practice polyamy. But that in the part of the world we live in, it’s uncommon, and you can’t legally be married to more than one person.
I’m not pretneding to be some sort of crusader for gay rights. You know what Kay? I hope to someday have children, and I hope they are straight. I think straight folk just have an easy time in society – thanks in part to people like you. But I will teach my children that sometimes Mikey loves Suzie, and sometimes Mikey loves Billy, and that’s ok. I will teach them to accept people for who they are, not what they do in their bedrooms. Regardless of who they choose as a mate, I will love them.
What do you tell your kids about the divided girls and boys bathrooms they’ll find at daycare, school and public places in light of “sometimes Mikey loves Billy”?
What is “asexuality” in human beings? Immaculate conception? There are many people who would object to this.
Wow, what a contentious topic.
I think that lots of people make stupid mistakes marrying early, but there are exceptions. I also have found that people from small towns (I grew up in a small town and went to university in a small town) tend to get married earlier in life. Perhaps it is because they aren’t exposed to so many single people, or maybe because marriage and a family is a bigger part of their plan, where in the city a career can often come first. Who knows. My younger brother just got married, and he’s only 22. His wife is a few years older, and they’ve been together a couple years. I have no doubt it will work for them.
On the other side of things, I think many people get married young because they’re in love. Being in love is great and I hate to say it, but I personally feel you need more than that. You need the same values, you need to communicate well, and you need to be compatible – including sexually. It really sucks if you’re in a relationship and wishing that your partner was a little more wild in bed, because his vanilla sexual appetite isn’t enough of a turn on. Same goes the other way, if you prefer vanilla and your partner is a lot spicier, it leaves someone (or both of you) feeling uncomfortable.
On a completely different note with the gay thing: I dated one of my best friends in my early twenties, who later came out of the closet. I’m telling ya right now, there’s no way he chose to be gay. That boy did not enjoy anything sexual with me, or with any other girls. Men rock his world. It’s that simple. He was miserable trying to date women, because he never was sexually attracted to them. It’s not because of how his parents raised him, taking him to church on Sundays and making sure he had a good education.
That’s about all I have to say about that.
Marrying young is tricky, I did it and it lasted about 6 months. My best friend married at twenty and she’s still with the same guy many years later, and they still love each other deeply. For some, early marriage works, for me it didn’t because I had a lot of growing up to do and so did my significant other.
Back to this gay thing… There are no studies that I’ve come across that claim that homosexuality is part of one’s genetic make-up. I’ve heard many gay friends of mine use the “we were born that way” argument, which I don’t buy into. I believe more in our environment shaping who we are and what we do, and when I say environment, I don’t just mean the family home.
As for polygamy, I would say go for it if it could be practiced by both sexes. If women could have several husbands, I would totally be up for that. Wonder if anyone in Halifax would want to be in my harem of hot men…
Em, I agree with what you say about polygamy…why is it always just for the men? Oh well, I have no intention of getting married, period lol.
In regards to your comment about homosexuality being the result of environment, which would include the home, school and neighbourhood, wouldn’t that mean that siblings of said homosexual would become homosexual as well? My sister and I grew up with the same family environment, same school and neighbourhood. We hung out in the same group of friends for several years, yet I am straight and she’s gay. I remember my first crush on a boy, when I was in grade 2…she remembers her first crush from around the same age; yet it was on a girl. What happened that’s the difference between us?
I don’t believe your sexual orientation is a choice. I believe it’s how we’re made up. There are several genes that have yet to be identified; who’s to say there isn’t one for homosexuality?
Em, I could sure handle a culture like that but we don’t. Ask yourself why. Have you been raised to think you should have many sex partners before you marry? Had you been raised to think sex before marriage was to be avoided would you want for a harem of hot men? Well shit. Who wouldn’t want a harem of hot men? Maybe this is why we don’t.
Marriage is way overrated. I’ve been down the aisle twice and let me tell ya, I’d never, ever do it again. My friends who married in their late teens and early 20s are either divorced or became as bitter as hell. Unless you like doing more than your share of housework, while holding down a full time job plus being the major caregiver of any zygots while hubby is grabbing you from behind with a major woody is enough to break anyone’s spirit, especially if a woman’s independence is sacrificed. I was fortunate I had a very understanding and cooperative partner but from what I’ve seen over the years were women who became lost when they were manless. If you make a man a major part of your identity, you will become a shadow of a person. Make that bastard do his share!
Kay, I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on the topic, but asexuality is a widely recognized idea. People who are asexual have no romantic or sexual inclinations at all – for either sexes. Some studies suggest 1% of the population identifies as asexual.
“asexuality is a widely recognized idea”… NOT true
Generally speaking we’d say human beings are social creatures. Among us are a few we consider “anti-social”. However, these people operate within and are heavily dependent on the social aspects of life no matter how “anti-social” they come across. “Anti-social” is an idea in their heads; an attitude, if you will. It’s NOT actually reflected by reality save for the few who actually disappear.
I would argue human beings are also sexual creatures. The personal rejection of gender or sexual inclination does not remove one from the “sexual creatures” domain.
The term asexual, as I understand it, is related to the reproduction of plant life and only a few species (ie. bees… the queen can reproduce asexually but if she does she puts off a pheromone and the queens-in-waiting will kill her for abhorrent behavior).
The day a human being is born without genital and fails to produce sex hormones is the day our species has mutated or “evolved” into something that is NOT human.
I argue a person’s sex drive or lack of it does NOT qualify them as “asexual”, per say. It only qualifies them as dam unlucky or a priest in my opinion. Again, it comes down to personal choice but said choice certainly does NOT create a whole new species of human being.
Be unique. Be special. But don’t think you’re not a typical human being.
Ok then Kay, what do you call these “unlucky” people? The ones who lack any sort of sexual desires or urges?
And for the record, there’s a big difference between being “social” and being “sexual”.
My husband has a friend who identifies as asexual. He’s in his early thirties, and has never had romantic or sexual feelings about women, or men. He’s never had any desire to be kissed, to have sex, or to receive a blow job. He says he hasn’t, and never will. He has a great group of friends (both men and women), a big family. He is very social, he’s just not sexual. At all. Oh, and I’m pretty sure he realizes he’s a “typical human being”.
And no one has ever said people who identify as asexual are lacking genitals. Where the hell did that come from??? People who are asexual have the parts, they just don’t have the desires.
Kay, it IS true that asexuality is becoming more widely recognized. Before I make generalized comments about something I’m not entirely familiar with (such as asexuality), I tend to do a little research. I have, and you might be interested in a little reading:
http://www.asexuality.org/home/overview.ht…
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m237…
Humans are, by definition, “social creatures”. In that same context they are also “sexual creatures”. Cut it up all you want. These are facts.
Sexual behavior is governed by the physical presence and production of sex hormones and is secondary only to environment (and God’s “gift” of adaptation). Despite a surge of chemical endorphins at puberty, unlike any other animal, a human being can SUPPRESS response behavior to stimulus whether its source is hormonal/internal or external.
Asexuality is NOT a widely recognized idea. From the article YOU posted, paragraph 1:
“…has been studied only sparingly”
So everything that follows is based on small sample which, of course, produces flawed data. Early conclusions are also likely to be flawed. (never buy version 1.0)
From the article:
“Related issues are sexual aversion disorder and hypoactive sexual desire disorder”
These are DISORDERS… deviant from the norm. NOT common.
I’m not saying don’t study it. Let me be clear about that.
The article goes on (and on and on) about how a child’s experience (hormonal and environmental) sets the ultimate outcomes of identity (bottom of page 1). This is where I argue choice as being the most relevant factor in our (sexual) development making the parent’s responsibilities to the child’s environment tantamount and directly manipulative of that outcome…. as our children should be… the way we teach them. We’re a highly adaptable species.
I would think speaking to an adult about the choices they made and the feelings they felt before and during puberty would produce highly inaccurate data considering most of us can’t remember, let alone accurately describe, how we felt about what we ate for dinner last Tuesday. Is it even ethical to ask such (leading) questions to a prepubescent child? No. If we could study the children as it’s happening, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts, deviant sexual development will be readily identified. A quick study of the child’s environment would reveal why the child CHOOSES to develop/adapt along the lines they are.
I was asked why asexuality would be “unlucky”. I must simply shake my head. It’s like trying to convince an ignorant person their perspective and overall life experience would improve as a result of education, tasting world cuisine or feeling the resonance of a perfectly tuned cello in a perfectly tuned room.
The whole time writing this I think of many women from past generations who did feel sex was a chore and seemed to have no sex drive at all despite the six kids running all through the house. Environment, exposure and timing is everything! They weren’t taught what their clitoris was for and they certainly didn’t speak of such things, not to their husbands and definitely not to their children. Yes, I think many of these women raised children to feel about sex the way they chose to as a result of their sexual experience and their environment.
We are human beings and we are but products of our environment. Our sexuality and identity is the product of choices we make in response to said environment. It’s a choice! Only you can make it. Too bad you were likely only 10 years old and had limited exposure when you did. It’s so deeply ingrained and reinforced now that you likely couldn’t change your mind if you wanted to… the brain hardens and becomes less elastic and subject to “programming” as we age. Something as fundamental as identity would… well, let’s not tear down the foundation lest the whole building falls down.
I have resolved, Kay, to no longer engage with you in argument. I’m all for having and opinion and backing it up, absolutely. However I cannot attempt to have a rational conversation with someone who refuses to admit that not everything is black and white. Sometimes there are indeed many, many shades of grey.
I just have to wonder if there’s anyone you really, really care about who doesn’t fit “the norm”. A friend? A cousin? A neighbour? A co-worker? Someone who hovers a bit outside your perfect little heterosexual, chaste-before-marriage, no-mistakes-allowed kind of world?
I feel incredibly blessed to be surrounded by a wonderfully diverse group of people at home, at work, and in my social circle. They encompass many different ages, races, religions, political views, and yes – sexualities. I would never dream of telling any of them they were “wrong” for being true to themselves. Or that they were faking. That something was just “in their head”. I have something to learn from each and every one of these people, and so will my children when that time comes. I am all the richer for it.
So go ahead Kay, say whatever you want. I won’t take the bait. You can say my brother is a fag-wanna-be who’s just looking for attention. You can tell me my husband’s good friend is just a loser who can’t get girls so he claims asexuality. Have at it. I’m finished with you.
Maybe you should just read the article, Jennie.
I’m not saying people are wrong for being some shade of grey just that somewhere along the way they identified as a result of choice (as a result of environment and exposure). They aren’t “faking it” (NOWHERE did I say that). They weren’t “born that way” either. They developed that way.
I didn’t say your husband’s friend can’t get girls. It was a choice he made a very long time ago.
And Jennie, I have yet to meet more than a handful of people whose parents or their porn or their lifestyle or their parenting technique or some other family member didn’t fuck them up in some way. And yes I say “fuck them up” because you know what would have happened had your brother and a girl been stranded together on a dessert island over the course of puberty? NATURE would have taken it’s due course and YES that course is to ultimately procreate as it is with every other living organism.
One more thing, Jennie… I come by this knowledge as a result of exposure to a bunch of fucked up people. I’m not Miss Perfect Sunshine thinking everyone should have it the way I had it. Quite opposite, actually.
Kay, how can you claim “…choice as being the most relevant factor in our (sexual) development…”, when you clearly said the article states it’s a child’s experience, BOTH hormonal & environmental?? Both my sister and I grew up with the same family, same school, same group of friends in the neighbourhood, yet she’s a lesbian and I love men. We were treated the same by our families, and honestly, there wasn’t any ‘talked about’ homosexuality. My sister has said she never remembers being attracted to boys, only girls, but felt like there was something wrong with her because of people like you saying it wasn’t ‘the norm’. How did we both end up with different sexual identities?
Also, re-read my post where I gave you the links. I said it’s becoming more widespread, meaning there are more people talking about it. I never said it was widespread…that’d kind of be a stretch. You were right when you said we should study it.
And, the only reason things aren’t considered ‘the norm’, is because majority tends to decide the ‘norm’. I like meeting people outside of that, because, as Jennie said, you gain so much from these diverse perspectives.
How can I claim blah blah blah…? because I too was a pubescent child and made many many choices. I remember! Children have the capacity to choose and do. They may not think with adult brains but they certainly have the capacity, and do, make life-altering decisions about their own identities (and value systems).
I can’t say why you and your sister have a different sexual orientation nor can you say with absolute certainty, unless you were twins attached at the hip, your experience and exposure were exactly the same. Also, timing is everything. A concept swallowed by you at 10 years old may not have gone down so well or come across the same way for your sister at 10 years old.
I don’t know..I’m 30, good looking, smart, funny and have some great career goals..I would get married, just need an ideal girlfriend (any takers?). Don’t think I’d wait a few years or anything either. Marriage, career, world travel, house, kids…I want it all. Lets do this!
OP I totally agree with you. I’m recently 30 and only JUST feel ready for marriage. A lot of people have such a whimsical idea of what marriage is, people do not take VOWS seriously and it’s sad to see that more than half of mariages end up in divorce.
I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but for what I’ve observed, people are marrying for the show.
Here here luv2luv! People are getting married for the party, attention & gifts/money! Then reality sets in and they can’t handle it.
I’m 21, engaged and happy..
You’ll understand when you fall in love.
Ha ha…spoken like a 21 year old in love. Check back in with us in 7 years.