Young folk might be aware of centuries of struggle for citizens to achieve a free and democratic society. And, except for a few lucky countries, we aren’t there, yet. I hope you are aware of the risks that we face with environmentalism. The kind of totalitarian policy and social engineering that we will face in the future will be exploited by every power hungry, greedy SOB out there. —Don’t Let Your Freedoms Get Flushed
This article appears in Jul 12-18, 2012.
Amen to that Brother. Secular fundamentalists are as nakedly transparent in their quest for control as their religious counterparts. And history tends to demonstrate that the “nobler” the “crusade” – the greater the abuses of rights perpetrated in it’s name. I’m all for voluntary measures for the sake of slowing environmental degradation. But I don’t believe for one minute that it will satisfy the zealots, who from the beginnings of recorded history have had one thing in common. When they say “WE need to make sacrifices…” what they really mean is “YOU”
oh god, I can only imagine what biscuit is gonna post.
agent 195… need some popcorn for this one?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2006…
Biscuit has a birthday coming up and Ivan has an idea…
an awful idea. Ivan has a wonderful, awful idea.
So you’re saying trying save habitats and species from extinction is treading dangerously close to some sort of facist ideal taking liberties away from millions?
There’s one Planet Earth OP,mankind’s population has reached the point where human activity is having a major impact not just in habitat destruction but in climate change as well. Everything on the planet will be affected.
I have been around long enough to see that our so-called leaders will do nothing to curb environmental degradation unless forced to. Bringing environmental issues to the forefront makes it an electability issue, something politicians take to heart.
I have to ask what freedoms are being taken away that you treasure so much OP. What is this “social engineering” you fear.
Ivan, you can’t possibly believe that polluting corporations would “voluntarily” curb their negative activity without some sort of outside coercion. Waiting for voluntary action ain’t gonna cut it. I believe the situation is too dire.
Well Trood, I too have been around long enough to understand that while it may be harder than hell to get politicians to do something; once they do, it’s bloody near impossible to get them to stop. And what they can do to large faceless corporations, they can more easily do to individuals. The more zealous of the environmental types sound remarkably like Old Testament Prophets. Global Warming is our Original Sin and for our own good we must be dragged down to the level of the developing world, punishment and redemption all in one fell swoop.
Now maybe I’m just being selfish, but to me, that sounds like a violation of human rights on a massive scale. Since few people would willingly accede to such a degradation of their existence, it would almost certainly have to be forced upon them, by a very powerful and organized central authority. To use the example of my favorite whipping boy, The Occupy Kids. What they could never wrap their heads around was that the people who didn’t agree with them, weren’t necessarily brainwashed sheeple in willing thrall to the 1%. We simply judged what we saw, so no appreciable difference, even less potential to change anything for the better and a major capacity to make things worse. Don’t wish for a revolution, you may just get one.
By participating in a society/culture/religion that elevates itself above others through the misuse and misappropriation of natural resource, one IS violating human rights. Take oil from Niger to heat OUR homes, and leave Nigerians in the dark.
Unfortunately the sheeple have already been brainwashed into a culture where they want what they’re told to want, and can only buy what they’re presented with… because those are the things you need, right?
I like you Captain, but there’s that whole sense of guilt/punishment in your answer. No mistake, If I lived in Niger I’d probably be saying “Drag them all down and be damned with them” But I don’t and I’m not about to put my head in a noose just because somebody else thinks it will do the world some good. I’ve had these conversations over the years with one of my lefty nephews and while I don’t agree with him, I respect that he is motivated by a desire to do goodly works.
*Cue Cranky Old Fuck’s cliche about the road to hell..something… something…Hay Matlock’s on!”*
One of his main talking points was “How much is enough…?” and while I don’t disagree with the principle, I’ll be triple damned in hell if I’m about to let anybody else determine that for me. He criticized our culture of hedonism while keeping a bottle of Disorono and a lid of his parent’s homegrown next to the bed, for his afternoon trysts with whatever Naomi Kleinclone he was boinking at the time. Being the superficial student of Orwell that he was, he clearly saw the post 9-11 world as Oceania being in perpetual conflict with Eastasia or Eurasia. He was convinced that compulsory military service was just around the corner and saw this a being as major violation of human and civil rights. Yet he had no problem with mandatory redistribution of wealth, enforced vegetarianism, compulsory charity, limitation of personal housing space, etc., all for the “Greater Good”
I have no answers, but other people’s answers sometimes frighten the fuck out of me.
well we used that oil to keep us comfortable while we were inventing these to help em out…
http://biolitestove.com/homestove/overview…
CFCs, does anybody think that any company would have stopped using them if not for legislation? That was what, 30 years ago? Only now, has the hole in the ozone layer begun to shrink. Where would we be now if CFCs were still used like they were in the ’60s.
It’s the age of conspicuous consumption and God help anyone who tries to deny the entitled thier “manifest destiny”.
“I have no answers, but other people’s answers sometimes frighten the fuck out of me.”
I enjoy the honesty of that answer, Ivan. I get pretty terrified by some of the zealot ‘solutions’ as well.
My main concern is people who live in excess. Consuming endlessly without ever creating something. I also firmly believe that a person’s well-being will improve with a downsized life-style.
We usurp the resources of ‘third world’ countries, while they hardly ever see a spec of the wealth that western society has to offer. Although that was a good example zZz. Well played.
“QUESTION ANSWERED”
RSVP
:troondon formosus (07/12, 1:31PM)
First:
“I have to ask what freedoms are being taken away that you treasure so much OP. What is this ‘social engineering’ you fear?
Second:
“Ivan, you can’t possibly believe that polluting corporations would ‘voluntarily’ curb their negative activity without some sort of outside coercion. Waiting for voluntary action ain’t gonna cut it.”
Question answered.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
I enjoy the privilege of heating my home with a renewable energy ( fire wood). If the hippies had their way, I’d be broke and using oil or electricity.
Hey GV, went out in the cool of the morning to start bringing my firewood for this winter home. I’ve got 4 cords that have been off the stump for over 2 winters & were split last summer, its mostly birch & oak & while I’m really enjoying the nice weather. I know the ole woodstoves going to make the 2012/13 winter a warm & snug one
Monsieur, you believe that allowing corporations (or anyone for that matter) to pollute is a cherished freedom? No, absolutely not. The planet is humanity’s house. You don’t want anyone shitting anywhere they please in your house.
What do we do? Keep on using up resources, keep on consuming until nothing is left? Every step to conserve, to preserve nature interferes with some sort of human encroachment, inconveniences people and restricts their freedoms. However, if these measures weren’t taken, that particular nature preserve would no longer be. In Indonesia, biologists are finding all sorts of species of animal never seen before. Efforts are being made to establish “protected areas” but this isn’t popular with logging and oil interests who in turn play the job card, a good living for the locals, making environmentalists unpopular. To protect these animals means sacrifice on the part of those who would exploit the nonrenewable resources there.
Same in Africa, where efforts are being made to protect elephants. Elephants need a large area to inhabit which in turn puts them in conflict with ranchers. Ranches keep growing while the habitat for the elephant keeps shrinking so they overlap and the elephant loses. They’re considered a pest and they’re shot. To help the pachyderm means stepping on somebody’s “rights and freedoms” which OP is so frightened of.
I do believe a crisis is underway. We could easily lose half the world’s species in the next century. For what? Progress? A self-entitled way of life? What gives us the right to exterminate an entire species? I believe…nothing. Is that being a zealot? I don’t think so.
We’re all on a journey here…to the stars…we’re going to spread out into space…such things take sacrifices.
Troodon, you’re my new favorite person on here.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_limcjcti…
>; )
I have a proposition. It will never probably happen but just imagine how many schools of thought this would satisfy.
Take all the nuclear weapons of the world (most of them are uranium based and there is a nuclear centrifuge process that can return the uranium to a nuclear plant usable state) and build extra nuclear power plants strategically placed evenly around the world away from faults and shorelines. If these weapons just sat around THEY WOULD BE NUCLEAR WASTE ANYWAYS and if they are used well…..
Now, use all the power from these extra plants completely on the building of renewable energy infrastructure (plants making wind tidal and solar energy apparatus).
Jobs are created, Nuclear war threat diminished, Use of oil diminished and this world feels more together from an international project that has helped the ailing economy and made a step away from nuclear annihilation.
Like i said it most likely would never happen but just imagine!
RSVP
: troondon formosus (07/12, 10:34PM)
“I do believe a crisis is underway. We could easily lose half the world’s species in the next century.”
Is that right Troon? Is what you believe? Is a crisis underway? Could we easily lose half the world’s species in the next half century? Troon, could you definitively support a shred of what you say? Some species might become extinct and others yet unknown might emerge. Who knows? But Troon, you don’t.
Anyway, Troon, whatever you say. I don’t argue with an all-knowing zealot. You know why? Because zealots argue from a closed belief system and Troon, your belief system is closed.
Have a good day.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Nice updated pic eyebrows. trying to go for the bank robber look or crack head? i stand by my previous statement regarding your mogoloid head. the great thing about this website is i’m entitled to my opinion just as you are. so glad you proved me right and you turned up again like a bad rash. you remind me of a child that keeps saying they are running away from home just to get attention ” hey look at me look at me!” over there in the corner. by the way i updated my picture from my “crap tattoo” as you call it
Didn’t mean what I said about the tattoo it was out of anger over thinking you meant Mongloid in the sense of the prejudice old term for aboriginal native Canadian. tattoos can be erased my head can’t. I can say goodbye without it being directed at everyone. Goodbye, and please learn to let things go life is too short, I have no ill towards you and am sure you’re a good person. I felt ganged up on and turned up the asshole meter 100%. Maybe I shouldn’t have.
A noble idea Daniel. FYI: The largest uranium deposits in the world are here in this province, Cape Breton. A reactor in the highlands would power the island, possibly the whole province (I’m not sure of the efficiency of Nuclear Reactors). Another idea would be to retrofit the Nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carries, park them in a Harbour and power costal
Cities like New York. Of course, the military would never stand for that.
Montrealman, Troodon may have been exaggerating slightly. But, the list of endangered and extremely endangered species is increasing every year. I don’t know how serious that situation will get. If course these lists mostly encompass animals, not focusing on insects which are doing quite well for the most part. They’ve begun to take over the areas now uninhabitable to animals. And example is the pacific garbage patch which has become a breeding ground for small insect colonies.
THE “ENVIRONMENTALIST”
RSVP
: Darth Captain (07/14, 2:00PM)
Well yes, that might be true Darth and I suppose I might have been clearer myself. What I wanted to stress was not the issue of the extinction of various species themselves – to suppose that anyone is would be in favour of that is simply absurd – but rather it was the mindset of the “Environmentalist” himself.
The mindset of the “Environmentalist” – I capitalize the term and put it in quotation marks to distinguish him from people who are concerned in a general sort of way with environmental degradation – consists in what the philosopher Eric Hoffer called “The True Believer.” Not only does The True Believer have a religious faith in the rightness of his cause, he demonizes those who do not share that faith in his beliefs. In that way The True Believer resembles the Islamic fanatic who, quite sincerely, believes that the cartoonist who caricatures Mohammed must be killed together with those who enable him, whether the publisher of those cartoons or even those who are amused by them. Other forms of “The True Believer” flourish across the cultural spectrum – political fascists, anti-Semitic Nazis, racists, flat-earthers, creationists and so on. Each views himself as truly authentic, occupying the moral high ground from which he will instruct, chastize, or even kill those who question his views.
Of course, the “Environmentalist” does not see himself in this light. Indeed, he sees himself as being in the forefront of the “counterculture,” battling the evil forces of a debased mainstream culture which is the unknowing dupe of a corrupt capitalist conspiracy to rape the environment in the interests of capital accumulation and ultimately control of society. He sees himself, in other words, as a Spartacus, the defender of the downtrodden and enslaved.
Is Troon a full-blown “Environmentalist?” I was going to say that only he can answer that question but, in view of the foregoing, I suppose that if he really is, then he won’t be able to. Zealotry is like having bad breath. The person afflicted is always the last to know.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
I must say being called an environmentalist, with small or large e is a compliment to me. Thinking of the biosphere as a whole rather than just about one species. Did I speak out of turn saying 50% of plants and animals may be gone in a century? Possibly.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/…
30% isn’t anything to brag either or
http://www.whole-systems.org/extinctions.h…
how about 22% in ten years?
Another more extreme course of action the human race can implement itself is taking the majority of the population and placing them in giant technologically advanced towers in the largest deadest deserts in the world. The Sahara, vast areas of Australia and even north America could house millions in these giant pyramid like towers that would minimize human ecological footprint and allow previous in efficient cities to simply be grown over.
There have been amazing breakthroughs this decade with growing algae and processing it to get almost every nutrient required including protein. This process has been developed by the space program for possible deep inter planetary manned space travel. There’s also indoor agricultural practices that could feed these massive indoor populations. These giant biosphere like towers would also be connected to a massive array of chords that would literally extract voltage from the earths magnetic field (Tesla technology) supplying at least part of the energy requirements while solar could, given the lack of frequent cloud cover, supply the remaining power, and then there is of course wind. One of these giant towers could theoretically house a million people! Just think, if half the worlds population decided to focus on building and living in these towers (it would take at least a few generations) entire pieces of continents could be made wildlife parks! whatever garbage that can’t be recycled could just be buried deep in the desert. If enough of these wide based super towers were sitting next to each other temperature in the area could be partly regulated simply by what color the towers were painted.
Unfortunately the politics of such a venture reduces itself to at least hardcore socialism, and the potential for corrupt social control would be very high. There would have to be in my opinion at least substantial populations near and in constant trade with these super tower cities indefinitely complete with local peoples’ militia and anti mob sentiment. We as humans are still obviously very much socially primitive with the potential for clashing groups struggling for control over each other at all times. Just think how things would be in an almost completely controlled environment with that many people.
“IT’S PEOPLE…SOYLENT ABRAHAM IS PEOPLE…..”
http://www.stomptokyo.com/img-m3/soylent-a…
It’s an idea that I don’t think will work because of the required constraints which basically turns people into caged animals so I’m not for it. Interesting to examine as an idea though
hmmmm, bar-b-q’ed algae
r but I personally can’t see that beating out a med/rare STEAK !
& I don’t care what shape they mold it into ! ! ! !
“What do soylent greens taste like?”
“Well, it varies from person to person.”
i miss you guys irl
PG irl=”in real life”?
Giant climate-controlled towers in inhospitable places? Sign me up. The interesting equation here would the carbon footprint associated with building these structures versus the long term benefits. This must be part of the social engineering OP was talking about. OP has not been back to further clarify his viewpoint. Whether we can be proactive in regard to negative anthropogenic impact on this biosphere or whether humanity will wait to the last minute, cost millions of lives through climate catastrophe and create corporate-controlled fascist governments creating man-made oases (maybe those towers) for the best,brightest,richest while the rest of us bake,drown or starve. I’ll take the latter for $500.00 Alex.
Sorry guys, I’ve been working in the hot sun for the last couple of days. Getting that old Armageddonish feeling. Oh well, I’d better get used to it.
Happy Sunday everyone.
yes, critter man…i need to look acronyms up on google too. i worship the sun by staying in the shade
RSVP
: troondon formosus (07/14, 6:48PM)
“I must say that being called an environmentalist with a small or large e is a compliment to me.”
Well Troon, not unexpectedly you seem to have missed the point of my post which was not to label you one way or the other – you did not appear until the last paragraph and even there were not labelled – but to simply explore the mind of the “True Believer,” the common theme which underlies all ideologues, including that of ideological environmentalism. However, your claim that being called a large e environmentalist does seeem to confirm your blind faith in its TRUTH and my unspoken suspicions. You want to instruct the wayward, such as me, in the paths of Godly righteousness.
Your charts and references also missed my point which was not to dispute the fact of environmental
degradation which I thought I had made clear but it seems this was insufficient for you. You demand nothing less than blind, unswerving faith from your acolytes.
Your sneering claim that I was “just thinking of one species” does confirm the “demonizing” of their opponents by the ideologically-driven environmentalists such as yourself. Those who question your absolute control, such as me, must be cast down into the Pit.
: (7/15, 12:18PM)
Yes Troon, it’s no suprise that you are “getting that old Armageddon feeling” since the end of the world is such a common and continuing theme of the ideologically-driven True Believer. “The end of the world is nigh! Bring it on, oh Lord, bring it on!”
By the way, your post sounds like you’re “just thinking about one species,” the sin with which you previously charged me. For shame Troon, for shame!
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Let’s take Daniel’s idea a step further.
Applicable mono-molecular technology isn’t that far off, think “Space Elevator”. Then more elevators, all connected. Eventually there would be a habitat ring completely around Earth.
Think of the living area for humanity then.
Drop a chord from orbit just like the trans atlantic cable i know EXACTLY what you mean Hugo.
We could build a Dyson Sphere around Montrealman, and a select group of Underclass could bask in the glow of his knowledge and gentle wisdom. Think of it, a controlled experiment to exponentially improve the species, leaving behind such impedimenta as war, envy, aggression, selfishness and the need to persecute bus-riding stroller moms.
“O brave new world. That has such people in’t”
Check your fucking email, Ivan!
Jawohl, Frau Obersturmbannfuhrer!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QZyFQK2r8wM/T6aw…
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: Leading Seaman Ivan (07/16, 6:46AM)
I’m a bit weak on the meaning of a “Dyson sphere” Ivan, but if I get the drift of your post I want you to know that you would be definitely included in that select group of the Halifax Underclass to serve as my loyal acolytes. A small group, of course, but very, very select, based upon the criteria which you so insightfully adnumbrated in your post itself.
By the way, the Editor of the Chronicle-Herald blocked my last comment on Gail Lethbridge’s “Province struggling to make health care grade.” That’s the second time Ivan. Another recent comment on Marilla Stephenson’s “Task force states the obvious” was also censored. Why is this? I like to trace the thought processes of the authors – there are others besides Lethbridge and Stephenson – to test for logical consistency and possible incoherence and maybe the Editor does not take kindly to my philosophical deconstructions. I’m presently in re-consideration mode.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Hmmm, Squealer to your Napoleon, eh? I think Biscuit already has claims on that role. I’m more like Benjamin, the donkey.
Forget the Chronically Horrid – here at least, you’re among friends.