Yes i know i have a stroller on the bus and maybe my child might be in the way of your fat ass trying to get on, but dont make a stupid comment loud enough so that i can hear it about how i shouldnt be bring my baby out and how i shouldnt be allowed to bring a stroller with a car seat (which makes the stroller really no wider or anything) on the bus. im sorry but its PUBLIC TRANSIT! im sorry but i need to bring my child to the doctor and my car is in the shop. sorry that i have to make your life that much worse by sitting on the bus. too bad asshole.
This article appears in Sep 18-24, 2008.
So was their fat ass trying to get by a neatly folded up stroller, or a monstrosity halfway across the aisle? Rules on the bus, kid comes out, stroller gets packed up. If you left it in the way, they had every right to bitch.
I hate to say it…but the strollers can be a little much…especially when 2 people with strollers get on and esentiallly BLOCK the aisle…people should have to break them down like they used to….
Have you ever tried to hold a baby and fold up a stroller at the same time? On a moving bus? Oh, and try getting off a bus with a folded up stroller and a baby and bags…..I feel for people on buses with babies. So you have to squeeze by….what’s the big deal? It could be worse…..you could be the one stuck on a bus with a baby.
I would have tripped him with it if my baby wasn’t in it. You’re right, OP. It’s PUBLIC transit. The stroller is baby’s transport. No way should you have to disturb baby to accommodate anybody. Ever.Consider this… our public transport is wheelchair accessible.Just don’t apologize, OP, unless you’re saying “I’m sorry about your face as you fell on it because your fucking blind AND retarded.” … uhm, actually, the retard would have been thrilled to share a bus with a baby in a stroller.Good post! Stroller on!
I don’t think they are rqeuired to do that any longer
Barcode666… say what you mean. What are you talking about… “that”… that what?
the people WITH strollers can be just as inconsiderate especially when they block aisle at the front of the bus when the bus is packed….
“that” break the strollers down…this was a rule several years ago
I didn’t know you were suppose to pack the strollers up, i thought it was the opposite, instead of having a baby sitting on someone’s lap it should be tightly in the stroller with the brakes on.When I take my baby on the bus I always squish the stroller as close to me as possible as I know its a hassle for others. I feel bad when I have to take the big one on and do it a little as possible. But it is public transit, and if you are that big that you can’t get around the stroller, you can use the walk. I am obviously getting my excercise making babies!
Now this is one bitch that I find completely reprehensible. Not for the OP, but for the over sized, over widened, overweight transit participant having to ” squeeze ” by a parent and child. Get a life, or better yet, get a new body. I can only assume that said lard ass was bitching about the lack of space because their life is miserable due to the increasing mass of their frame.
I love babies and all and strollers don’t really bother me since I’m small, but I can’t stand it when they cry and scream on the bus– my ears! However, I feel bad for the parents who try desperately to keep them quiet.
you know when there are 2 of them blocking the aisle THAT is annoying…you practically have to crawl over them…and if you are carrying bags it is even worse
This is a direct quote from Metro Transit’s “Passenger Safety” guidelines in regards to strollers and children. “Strollers are permitted on Metro Transit vehicles. After boarding, a child may be left in the stroller IF SPACE PERMITS; however, the stroller CANNOT block the aisle or impede the movement of other passengers. The brakes must be engaged and the stroller must be held at all times. Should the adult CHOOSE to remove the child from the stroller, the stroller must be folded and stored in a safe position.Young children should be accompanied by an adult when travelling on Metro Transit vehicles.” I’m just saying…
Transit should be enforcing their own rules then becasue space often doesn’t permit 2 of them- one on each side of the aisle
nit nit pick pick… Barcode, go be useful.
whatever
Usually two strollers can fit on a bus if they are not right across from each other, one in front of the handicap seats and the other in back.Although I would rather see someone with a baby get a seat on the bus then and adult. My baby is older so not speaking specifically about mine, but someone with a new born should have bus priority.
Keep in mind that children are generally much safer in their strollers than sitting on an adult’s lap (assuming engaged brakes, etc). Sudden stops, accidents and “some” people acting like idiots on public transit can result in serious injury to infants and babies – hence no one is allowed to be in a passenger vehicle with a child on their lap.
I’m all for using public transit and being green. But if you have a small baby that requires bulky strollers and multiple bags of stuff – get a car. Seriously. If you can afford to raise children, you can afford to get an old beater. And what if you need to get somewhere in an urgent but not emergency situation? Are you going to wait for the bus with a sick baby? Save everybody the hassle and get a cheap car. Kijiji is full of ‘em.
Pay attention Frannie… OP said her car was in the shop. And sure, you can pick up a car for cheap but then what are you gonna do when it breaks? or needs gas? or insurance? Even cheap cars cost a hell of a lot!
Fuck off Frannie! When I was in college, I had an 18 month old. I could not, in any way, afford a car. I had to use the bus, to get to school, daycare, doctors appointments, etc. In the case of an emergency, I called a cab or a friend….. Public Transit is for the PUBLIC! That includes babies, parents, the mentally unstable, fat/skinny/smelly people, etc……not just for single self-entitled assholes like yourself!
Got to disagree with the “get a car because you’ve got a kid” comment. Beater car minimum $2000. Insurance probably $1000+ per year. Gas at $20 per week (with almost no driving) $1040. Maintenance on beater car wildly unknown – could easily be $500 or $2000 per year. For the sake of argument we’ll say $5000 for the first year of beater car’s life. Keep in mind that the purchase cost will soon be offset by increasing maintenance costs of a beater.12 x monthly MetroPass = $720 (taxes in)12 x urgent situations x $20 cab fare = $2401 x emergency situation requiring ambulance = roughly $200Total annual cost = $1160The “extra” $3860 between a beater and transit is a lot of money that can be applied to child rearing and creating a stable home environment. “Save everybody the hassle and get a cheap car,” I respectfully disagree.
With all due respect Lori, you shouldn’t have been having kids you couldn’t afford. I have no sympathy for you.Kids are expensive. What kind of situation are you in – as a parent – that you don’t have $3000 (the difference for a beater or the bus) in case of emergencies??? If you can’t plan your own finances, how can you plan a child’s life???
Oooo, this should be fun!
If it were such that only people with money could breed then the human race would be a shambles. I think of “blue bloods” and shudder at the thought of their limited gene pool. Furthermore – and history will bear me out – greatness often came from adversity and/or poverty. The well off were often too involved with their ponies and opium dens (Hummers, widescreen TVs, and McMansions today) to do much of substance.
If only everyone was as perfect as you, Frannie! What if someone can’t drive….for medical reasons or whatever…should they not have children? And, my son is now in a position where he does not have to worry about money because I took the time to better myself, but it meant we had to sacrifice for a few years…(no car)…..Who are you to judge how much money someone should have before having kids? If you think every parent who doesn’t have $3000 banked is a bad parent and those who do, are good/responsible parents…..well lets just hope you don’t choose to have any of your own!
It has nothing to do with being perfect, it’s called being responsible.I’m not saying only blue bloods should have children. I’m not one. I don’t have a Hummer, McMansion, or 50 inch plasma screen tv. At the same time though I’m not going to have kids until I’m financially comfortable i.e. have a nice little nest egg saved up. Because I’ve made good choices i.e. not having a kid at 18 but going to university and getting a great job I’m well on my way.
So, then you must be a virgin?
Not at all. But for the past 10 or so years I’ve paid $55 for a three month supply of birth control pills. I’m very responsible with them and take them at the same time every day. It’s served me very well.
And I’m not saying that both mom and dad should have gas guzzling SUVs. But I think you’re doing your kid a disservice if you don’t have regular access to a vehicle. I wouldn’t want to have to explain to my son that he couldn’t play hockey because the bus won’t get him to those 6:30am practices, or to the rinks in rural areas. I wouldn’t want my kid’s existence to be entirely confined to HRM because that’s where the bus runs. I’d like to be able to take my kid apple picking in the valley in the fall. Or to the beach. Or to one of the many cultural and historical places in this province. But that’s just my opinion. To each their own.
MetroTransit is not really a rural option and therefore not pertinent to this debate. People who live in rural areas adjust their lives accordingly. Hell, MT doesn’t even do a particularly good job of servicing the suburban areas, let alone rural.
So if you live in the city and have kids, you’re never going to leave the confines of HRM? That’s a pretty sheltered existence in my opinion. When I was a kid playing sports in the city, we had games in Musquodoboit, Canning, Stellarton, Berwick, etc.
I did not fully respond to your points. That additional $3800 that I spoke to earlier would most definitely allow transit users with children to rent a vehicle for outings or, like most parents with children, they know other parents and can either share the cost of help pay for gas f their friend has a car. Being a transit user with a child does not mean that life starts and stops in Halifax/Dartmouth.Having grown up in rural NS I can tell you that urban kids with transit passes have far more options to explore and do things outside our immediate proximity than we rural kids did. We had a bicycle radius that allowed us to reach a couple other kids’ houses. Town was a car ride away…provided the parents were not working or occupied.
So if you’re regularly renting a car or paying to put gas in someone else’s – why not save all the trouble and have one of your own?
And I’m not talking about older kids with transit passes. I’m talking about young children who rely solely on their parents for transportation.
Based on the information you have provided I am assuming that you had a relatively comfortable life growing up. That is not the reality for a lot of people in NS. And while you were fortunate enough to have someone that could drive you to games in other towns and parts of the province, in these economically constrained times and with the issue of global warming becoming self-evident many people are opting to carpool their kids around or arrange busing for the entire team.
My parents worked very hard so my siblings and I would have lots of opportunities and experiences, but we certainly weren’t wealthy. But my parents also were responsible and didn’t have us until they were ready, both mentally and financially.I’m not only talking about travelling for sports, although that was a big one for us. Our weekends were always filled with family excursions, usually well beyond the borders of metro. They wanted us to see the Maritimes, and learn about this part of the world that we called home. I just don’t see how that would have been possible without a vehicle. Don’t get me wrong, we weren’t driving shiny, fancy, brand new cars. But we always had transportation that made us independent as a family.I absolutely agree that everyone needs to do their part to reduce global warming and take care of the environment. I just don’t see how you can give kids all the opportunities they deserve when you can’t leave city limits without relying on someone else.
Who said anything about regular rentals? How often do you go apple picking in the Valley in a year?This debate has sidetracked so far as to become irrelevant. People with small, dependent children and strollers have a right and a place on public transit. Children have the right to safety, thus not being hoist out of their strollers and on to the laps of adults. Parents with strollers should keep the wheels locked and the stroller close by and attended. Saying that people should buy a car because others are inconvenienced by parents using transit with their children is narrow-minded, environmentally unsound, and displays the ultimate in consumer attitudes. As another poster stated: Stroller on.
And as unpopular as this statement may be, in these “in these economically constrained times” I don’t think people should be having children until they can afford them.
Fair enough. I can agree to disagree. But when I have kids I won’t punish them by dragging them on the bus to get groceries/go to the doctor/get to piano lessons/go to their friends house for a sleepover/go to the dentist/take them shopping for new shoes/get them to soccer practice/take them to the movies. It will be too exhausting for all of us.
Frannie, you seem to make the assumption that anyone who can afford to own a car will do so. Based on that assumption, you make the moral judgement that any parent who does not own a car is an irresponsible person who can’t afford children. I can afford a car. But I choose not to own one, for a number of reasons. I believe quite strongly that the day of the private automobile is passing. I believe that the cost of running a car will someday be beyond the means of all but the very wealthy, and I think that day might come sooner than many people expect. I believe we are going to have to give up our dependence on the automobile. It is going to be an extremely difficult habit to break. But people who have lived for many years, even grown up, without being entirely depending on the almighty car, will have a much easier time making the adjustment.
Do you have kids Miranda?
Yes, Frannie, I have kids. I know how difficult it is to schlep them around on public transit. I also know that we are not the only family who lives car free by choice. It’s a small group, but if you google “car free”, you’ll find that it’s a growing movement.
Frannie, not everyone can afford or wants a car you know. Especially if they live in the city and they can, you know, take the bus. It’s kind of the reason why it’s there, you know, to transport people. Including children.
I think public transportation is great. Ideally, even after I have kids, I’ll use it to commute to work. It’s a great way to save on gas and parking, and reduce emmisions. However I still plan on having a car so that my kids’ only memories of childhood is waiting for the bus to get everywhere.
Funny that people are jumping on Frannie for the suggestion that a parent should be able to afford things like a car. I think the point of her post was missed. Not saying I fully agree, but the point is valid that too many parents are not finacially ready to have kids. Just because you have a womb, doesnt make you ready. Too many kids are born into this society and the parents that are barely able to make it paycheck to paycheck now have a new HUGE expenditure to add to the mix. Not saying i agree that they should have car money, but i see the point. As to the OP, this is a case that the rules previous (fold up the stroller) were the issue here. They were around for many years and for the most part were made when them little flimsy strollers were the thing. Now you have ones with monster truck tires on them, a fridge in the back, internet hook up, a large tv monitor for the parents……. i am exagerating, but the strollers now are just to fuckin huge. tough call on this one as both sides have a decent case.
I feel for the OP, I really do. Before you have kids, you ride the bus, and you know it sucks. And you try and fold up the stroller, but if the kid is still young enough to be in a carseat/stroller combo, then it probably should stay in it. As for the comment about getting a car…foolishness. Having a car when you live downtown or in the city isn’t convenient. It’s just as easy to walk or bus somewhere than to load up a car and find parking wherever you go.
Let’s all hope Frannie’s birth control never fails.I think that you, Frannie, have some serious issues that you just can’t see. People should plan ahead, yes, as for your comment :”With all due respect Lori, you shouldn’t have been having kids you couldn’t afford. I have no sympathy for you.”I don’t need or want sympathy from you. Who said I, or anyone else, riding MT with a young one had children we couldn’t afford? Things happen, circumstances can change, people go through hard times that are unexpected……which can lead to having to sacrifice things like a car…..and when this happens all I ever wanted from someone like you was respect! But people like you, Frannie, are the assholes of our society who turn your nose up or look down at a mother on a bus struggling to fold up a stroller and hold a baby and a school bag and a diaper bag….you are the kind of person who kicks someone when they are down, and judges based on assumptions….this world would truly be better off without you!For the record, my son plays hockey and has been on at least 2 vacations every year of his life. He’s been apple picking and camping and to beaches. Sometimes in our car, but mostly with others in his early years. We rode the bus for 2 years straight, Mon-FRi., and believe me, when the weekend came, the bus was the last place we would be….so again assuming someone with kids and no car is living a sheltered life is a rediculous assumption. MT sure didn’t take us to Montreal and Toronto on vacation, but guess waht? We used public transportation when we got there! And I highly doubt any of my son’s childhood memories will consist of waiting for the bus!
No one should let the fact that society has deemed things to be a certain price to dictate to you when you are going to make the most important decision of your life. Plus when society has created a sex crazed media encouraging kids to go have sex before they understand the implications of raising a child, doesn’t mean they should be punished later.Not that I have an issue with a sex crazed media, sex is my favorite thing!
Some of my favourite memories of childhood are when my dad would spontaneously say after dinner “Hey, it’s a beautiful night. Who wants to go to the park and feed the ducks?”, of “Let’s go get an ice cream cone”. We lived in metro, but not within easy walking distance of either of those activities, as well as many others. I can’t imagine we would have done any of those things if it meant waiting around for a bus to get there and back. I really would have missed all those spontaneous opportunites.Again, I’m not saying families should have two big gas guzzling SUVs. I’m not saying they should have two cars. And I understand the importance of public transportation.So I have a question for those of you who are telling me to fuck off, calling me an asshole, etc. Do you honestly believe that your kids will experience all the same things, see all the same sights, have all the same opportunities, and get to all the same places as the kids whose families have a car?
PS. Birth control pills are 99% effective when taken correctly, which is something I have always been obsessive about. I’m not a betting woman, but if I was, those are pretty darn good odds.
Not everyone enjoys the same activties. Is it the time your father spent with your or the specific activities that you did with him you enjoyed.My daughter’s favorite thing to do is go to the park. There are tons close to me. We can also walk down the street for said “Ice Cream” (where in the hell do you live that you need a car for that?)
Also Frannie, you’re ugly and you smell bad! 😛
Sorry, you missed my point. It wasn’t that eveyone likes feeding the ducks or going for ice cream.It was that although we lived in metro Halifax, we lived in a subdivision at the top of a hill with not too many ammenitites in close walking distance, at least not with a couple young kids in tow. If we didn’t have a car, all of our activities (whatever they may have been) would have had to have been well-planned out in advance. I really would have missed that spontenaity (sp).
And while you may not find me attractive, I can assure you I smell just fine.
So every generation of us that had kids before we started having cars was wrong as their parents didn’t have the ability to get up and go somewhere whenever they felt like it?
That’s not a fair comparison. We live in a very different world than those generations did.
Well spontaneity has nothing to do with the time frame.Families were great families before the invention of cars. What makes a family is the people in them, not whether they have a money sucking machine in the drive way or not.
In those days kids spent all their free time working on the farm. Families were different.Whatever, I disagree with you.
The farm? Every kid was on a farm? HA!Anyways I’m just arguing because I’m bored. Cars are convient but do not make a family.And you do smell bad. I swear!DIPSET!
Listen Frannie, unless you’re an idiot, surely you would take back your original comment by now, realizing that you spoke before actually thought about it.When I was a kid, my dad also took us for Sunday drives or out in the car to see the xmas lights, etc.I also grew up in Montreal, and some of my favorite memories were when we would go to a ball game or hockey game and taking the subway and train to get there, imagine that, a happy childhood memory involving public transport!!!However, things have changed, the price of gas and insurance, etc. was nothing compared to what it is now. There are plenty of families in today’s society who are responsible and financially stable, who CANNOT afford a Sunday drive! That does not mean that their children won’t have as many great experiences as those who can afford it….what rock are you living under? Come on out and let the sun burn you and the smog fill your lungs….it ain’t 1970 anymore!
PS: 99% is not 100%……I was told that without the use of fertility drugs, I would have a 1% chance of conceiving a child. Guess what? I’ve got two without the help of any drugs! Just because you believe you won’t get pregnant because you take your pill everyday at the same time, doesn’t make it true! Also, there are people who can’t take BC pills for different reasons…..what would you do if you were one of them? I know there are lots of methods, but none are 100% guaranteed. I guess your solution would be to abort….which is what I hope you do if you ever find yourself in that situation….thankfully we live in a place where we get that choice!
and who says waiting for a bus is a BAD thing for kids? isn’t the point of all thoes ice-cream-and-ducky outings to spend time with your family? well what better way to do that then a quiet walk to a bus stop, followed by waiting for a bus, where there’s nothign to do but TALK to your parents/kids? It means taking more time out of a day, sure, but that’s time that cna be spent actually WITH your family, instead of worrying about gas and parking and traffic and focusing on getting one more car onto the road because it’s slightly more convienent. Also, having to wait and learn a schedule and share space etc, frankly, can only be good for kids- there are so many bitches on this board about overpriveleged selfindulged kids who expect the world to revolve aroudn them. Maybe riding the bus would be a good thing.I grew up in a rural area. We had a car- we needed it. there was no other way to get around. But the things I remember most were taking walks or bike rides with my parents- not driving to some local to get an icecream cone. that takes 10 minutes; biking there and back can take half an hour,a nd that’s half an hour of family time I’d have missed out on otherwise, as well as encouraging a green attitude and healthy living in kids (what are you teaching your spawn when you drive 10 minutes to get an ice cream cone, which you could easily have walked if only you weren’t so lazy?). The other thing I remmeber? the intense hassle of organizing EVERYTHIGN because of a car. who’d drive, when, where, why and how was more of a looming issue for me growing up then taking a bus, when I got to uni and was able to, ever was. suddenly, there was the freedom of metro transit to just pick up and go wherever I wanted, whenever I wanted, sure in the knowledge that I wouldn’t ahve to drive on unfamilar streets and get lost, figure out parking, or get gas. There’s more freedom in public transit I think than slogging through traffic, particularly as kids get older.should parents be ready before they ahve kids? sure. but you can micromanage everythign and put a dollar sign on when ‘ready’ is. If you do that you’re just going to end up with overscheduled neurotic old egg babies, cause you can bet mommy-hyper-planning isn’t gioing to stop with her nest egg.
Lori, I disagree with you, which is fine. That’s the beauty of a free society. Do you tell everyone who doesn’t share your opinion to fuck off or that you hope they abort their child?You sound like an awesome person. Only the cool kids resort to personal attacks because someone has a differing opinion.
“With all due respect Lori, you shouldn’t have been having kids you couldn’t afford. I have no sympathy for you.”Looks like ur cool too Fran
This is surely one of the dumbest arguments yet. Or at least based on the dumbest premise yet. Frannie is expressing a very narrow, very blindered, very middle-working-class suburban soccer mom point of view (in real cities people don’t need cars, Frannie) – the height of American-style glassy-eyed blissful ignorance. And she is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge any other point of view, as if her life depended on being right about just this one little thing – which pretty much demonstrates that she knows she’s wrong. It is very silly.
“In real cities people don’t need cars, Frannie”I agree. If you were raising a child in Toronto, or Montreal, or NYC, you wouldn’t at all want or need a car. But here in the Maritimes, it is my belief that a family needs a car if they want their kids to participate in and experience most things.
frannie why dont you do everyone a favour and open your mind…. think about it — there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Frannie, I respect your right to hold a different, even unpopular, opinion. I only ask that you recant your statement that having children and not having a car is an indication of irresponsibility. I will agree with you that many people have children when they can’t afford them. I will agree with you that this is irresponsible. But car ownership is not the overarching idicator of parental responsibility that you implied it is. For the record, I grew up in Dartmouth without a car. My uncle had a car, so we did get to enjoy an occasional out-of-town day trip. But my parents did not own a car, ever. We lived in a neighborhood where all the essentials were within walking distance. There were two lakes close enough to walk to, and several more a bike ride away. We rode our bikes everywhere. We were active, healthy, and happy. We knew every shortcut, every hidden frog pond, every good climbing tree in our community. We never felt deprived because we couldn’t jump in the car and drive to the valley at the drop of a hat. Those trips were special, preceded by several days of anticipation. I remember bus trips as adventures, and a ride on the ferry as an occasion of almost unbearable excitement. To this day, when I stand on the upper deck of the ferry on a windy day, I remember the elation I felt as a child, clutching the rail, leaning as far over the side as my mother would allow. The experiences of a child in a car free family are undoubtedly different from those of a child with ready access to a vehicle. But to say those experiences are inferior displays an arrogant and dismissive attitude toward the value of life experiences that differ from your own.
Well said Miranda. When I said glassy-eyed blissfully ignorant middle-working-class suburban soccer Mom, “arrogant” is what I really meant, with a sprinkle of “dumb”. You did a better job.
It’s that very consumerist-sheep kind of thinking that leads marketing firms to know they can totally make a killing by creating saccharine mush that portrays moments of familial bliss with smiling children and glowing grandpas and crams the idea down impressionable people’s throats that, “oh, if only I have Product X, my family life can be whole, wholesome, rewarding, and I can avid all of the pitfalls of life that those poor folks who can’t afford X have to suffer.”(whoa, long sentence)
Sorry, but I’m hitting the BS buzzer Miranda. That story of your childhood is just a little too perfect and convenient.Good try though.
Frannie, I don’t like to resort to vulgarity. I prefer to engage in reasoned discussion. But you leave me no choice:Fuck you, you arrogant, self satisfied, brainwashed consumer zombie. Come right out and call me a liar, you have no right to expect anything other than a solid flaming. “Oh, I’m calling bullshit. Nobody could possibly have a happy childhood without a car in the driveway. That’s just stupid. Nice try though.” So your happy memories of jumping in the car to drive to the corner store for icecream are perfectly valid, but someone else’s happy memories of hanging over the side of a ferry county jellyfish are clearly bogus, because they don’t involve a car.I think you just effectively and emphatically proved my point about “an arrogant and dismissive attitude toward the value of life experiences that differ from your own.”
I grew up in the country and knew every little area in my town. So not sure where the BS is, and we did have a car.So essentially the level of wealth one has determines someones ability to have children?I’d rather have children that know how to use their legs and walk someplace then be lazy and drive down the street to the store.I don’t really care, my new girlfriend has a car. 😛
the amount in a bank account does not determine how good a parent you will be.you can have a million dollars and still be a neglectful, abusive, annoying fuck. you can have tons of cash and put your child in every lesson imaginable, send them to private schools, buy them designer clothes and tons of toys, but it doesn’t mean they’re going to ahve happier or ‘better’ childhoods than anyone else who DOESN’T have these things. In fact, I’d argue, since it’s the simple pleasures, unstructured playtime (i.e my mom’s favorite- go outside and play. I don’t care what you do- play with that stick if you have to. just go play), and the like that people seem to remember and which ahve been shown to have huge impacts on development, the less material goods you have, the better you will turn out.
I think you often make great, well thought-out arguments, Miranda. You’re articulate and seem very bright.On too many occasions, however, you have an absolutely too perfect and too convenient story that just happens to support whatever you’re arguing.So while I mostly appreciate your contributions to this board, quite frankly I sometimes think you make shit up. So get down off your made-up, environmentally-perfect high horse!
I think the next time frannie goes to the valley to pick apples for the worldly experience of it, she may want to pay a little more attention to the people who actually live in the area. There are lots of poor families there with kids who don’t get all the “spontaneous” life experiences afforded by being middle class. They still turn out well-adjusted and happy children, who grow up to be well-adjusted and happy adults. There are lots of shitty parents, wealthy and poor. If a kid is getting fed, sheltered, educated and loved, the rest is just details.
And Frannie, I think your odour is pleasant and you also impress everyone with your wisdom… now someone show me some love!
Maybe, Frannie, that’s because I base my arguements on personal knowledge, and I don’t talk shit on subjects about which I know nothing. If I offer an opinion on something, it’s because I damn well know what I am talking about. Unlike people who, for example, pass judgement on the various requirements of responsible parenting, never having experienced parenthood themselves.
Thanks Bad Guy – I think.You probably have very fresh breath. How’s that for love?
For arguement’s sake Frannie, what benefits do you see to being able to take your kids to soccer, or to the park or for ice cream, etc? What character traits and experiences to you expect to foster in your children by giving them these opportunities? Think about that answer, and then try and imagine if a child can gain similar experiences another way. If you have trouble, let us know, I’m sure all us kids who grew up in the sticks or without a car can help you out.
I think that exposing kids to a wide variety of experiences, be it singing in the choir, being on the basketball team, taking art lessons, going to dance class, or volunteering at the soup kitchen is what makes them well rounded people.Having your kids see more than the five block radius around your house is what teaches them about their bigger community, and the world they live in.
Frannie, you accuse Miranda of manufacturing idyllic stories to make a point. But one could easily argue that your pretty, nostalgic descriptions of wholesome family outings that could not have been possible, or as fulfilling, without a car sound as if they have been brought to us by CBS™ and Quaker Oatmeal™ for the Ford™ Motor Company. I think I’ll call BS on you.
That’s fine Jammie. You’re free to do so.
I smell a cat-sweater person.
You’re gonna be one of those parents who’s kids are in 17 different activities every day of the week aren’t you frannie?I actually think you’re MORE isolated when you depend on a car. at least when you use public transit you’re connected to your community in a way I think a lot of us have lost as a society.
I also smell a suburban “country kitchen” with tole-painted duckies.
I hate cats. And toll painting.
That’s OO, I wasn’t being literal. Just suburban.
@ Frannie; I said a lot more than fuck off or abort your child…..but you are now being so stubborn that you can’t answer any of the questions or admit that you were/are wrong with your opinion that strollers don’t have a place in public transportation.The only reason why I continue to post on this thread and have resorted to calling you names, is because it was people like you, that made me feel like a bad parent for being on a bus; People like you, who wouldn’t take the time to help me on or off a bus with my baby/stroller/stuff/etc.; People like you who think that you are better than someone with a kid on a bus. It was because of people like you, that I spent some bus rides holding back tears beacuse of the lack of respect you would have for someone who was clearly struggling and just trying to do the right thing. I guess you would prefer that young mothers like myself who couldn’t afford a car would be better off staying home and sitting on my ass collecting welfare????? No, no, I can tell, you’re just the type who bitches about YOUR TAX $$ paying for those people too.See, the problem is that you don’t actually agree with your own statement ….”Lori, I disagree with you, which is fine. That’s the beauty of a free society…”If you believed that you wouldn’t be telling people to get off the bus and out of your way……those people, with strollers, pay the same fare you do to get on a bus!So anyway, like I said before, Fuck you and all people like you! The world would be better without you. As for the abortion comment…well, I’ve seen the results of children who come from people like you, and again….the world would be better off without those self-entitled, judgemental, little kids who think that where they live and what their parents drive makes them better than the next kid!
I live in the Peninsula, Jammie.
I live on the Peninsula, Jammie.
But you think suburban. Again, not being literal. Sheesh.
And of course, one does not need a car on the Peninsula. It’s almost like a real city there. Almost.
“admit that you were/are wrong with your opinion”I’m sorry Lori, but opinions aren’t wrong. Every. You might not agree with someone’s opinion, but that doesn’t make either one of you right or wrong.And I thought I’d answered all of the questions that had been asked of me. If you’ve got more, feel free to ask.We all have to lie in the bed we make. You chose to get pregnant at a young age, I chose not to. You have to live with your choices, and I – well, I’m going to be a repsonbile, financially sound parent.
Lori, it’s mom’s like you that end up with kids that recognize and appreciate the struggles and sacrifices you made as a parent on their and your own behalf. That kind of example fosters more beneficial and worldy experience than any number of hockey games and choir practices. Don’t ever think it goes unnoticed by the people who matter (i.e. your kids)
Jammie my partner and I do have one car between us, and we use public transportation as well. But when we decide to have kids, we’re going to keep the car so we can, you know, take them off the peninsula.
Good luck with the in vitro once you’re feeling sufficiently flush to responsibly bring children into the world. Can’t wait to se you with quintuplets in your stroller as you get angry at all the staring and all the judgment that will then be flung your way for being so poor a decision maker as to have children at the age of 40 when your kids will never know the joy of having a young vibrant mother instead of a frazzled old granny who can’t do all the wonderful, wholesome activities that GOOD mother do with their children.But I’m sure you won’t complain, because you’ll know tat we all lie in the beds we make.
Miles my parents made PLENTY of sacrifices, and our family certainly had our share of struggles. As I mentioned earlier, we weren’t a wealthy family. We didn’t live in a huge house or drive expensive cars. We didn’t take lavish vacations. But both my parents worked, and I’m sure they went without themselves so we kids could have plenty of opportunities and experiences.So I appreciate sacrifice and struggle, and my kids will too.
Jammie I have no intentions of being 40 and trying to get pregnant. My partner and I are in our late 20s and figure we’ll be starting our family in the next couple years.
She hates cats AND toll painting?? Next you’ll tell us that you hate cat sweaters too.Heathen.
Frannie, I wasn’t implying YOU didn’t appreciate the struggles your parents went through. I was just complimenting Lori on HER parenting skills, which, despite your opinion of them, I think are admirable. Lori’s income has no relevance to the quality of parenting her kids receive. As for your future kids Lori, do you think that “well rounded” kids are necessarily well-adjusted kids or make better people? I mean, don’t you think a kid who might not play sports, or volunteer, or be class president or play an instrument can still be a good and happy kid who goes on to be a successful and productive member of society?
Frannie, you made a personal attack on me, and I unfortunately allowed myself to be provoked into responding to it. Not the first time I’ve been embarrassed by my own temper.But the discussion is not about the veracity of my experiences. The discussion is about whether a car is an essential component of a well rounded childhood. So let us say, for the sake of discussion, that I am talking out of my ass and none of that stuff ever happened, at least not to ME. Is it your position that it could not have happened to anyone? Is it your position that a happy, car free childhood can only be the figment of my environmental high horse riding imagination? In short, is it your position that your experiences of a happy childhood, and others similar to your own, are the ONLY valid ones?
Just for fun…here are some questions you never answered…-What if someone can’t drive….for medical reasons or whatever…should they not have children?-Also, there are people who can’t take BC pills for different reasons…..what would you do if you were one of them?-I guess you would prefer that young mothers like myself who couldn’t afford a car would be better off staying home and sitting on my ass collecting welfare?????-and the most important one…..”what rock have you been living under?”
Enough with the literal already Frannie. I have no idea, nor do I care, how old you plan to be when you get your little eggs fertilized.I was simply illustrating that there will always be someone who judges others’ life choices, no matter how “responsible” or “financially sound” or “well rounded” they may think them to be. You have taken a very holier-than-thou approach to this discussion and I am simply pointing out that there will be others even holier-than-you that think you’re doing tit all wrong too. And you probably won’t respond to that any better than Lori, for example, is responding you to.In short, stop being such a judgmental cunt because it will all come back to haunt you one day no matter how superior you think your ways are.
I think well-rounded kids are better prepared to face the world as adults, yet.
Frannie, there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with your idea that you want to wait until you are financially stable before having kids. What I find silly is the notion that people who choose to take a different path are somehow irresponsible or bad parents. I say again, if a kid is loved and cared for, they will turn out fine, regardless of how many extracurricular activities they are enrolled in or how many apple picking excursions they go on.
not to go off in another direction or anything, but, in our history many would disagree with your “opinions can’t be wrong” statement.There were and are people who have the opinion that black people should go to the back of the bus……is this opinion right???? Hell NO……I’m sure you’ll come back with something ridiculous. But the truth is, your opinion that people with babies (shouldn’t go to the back of the bus) but shouldn’t ride the bus at all!!…..sorry but that opinion IS WRONG!
-What if someone can’t drive….for medical reasons or whatever…should they not have children?I find it hard to believe that both parents would be unable to drive for medical reasons. -Also, there are people who can’t take BC pills for different reasons…..what would you do if you were one of them?I would use the birth control patch. Or IUD. Or Depo-Provera. Or a diaphragm combined with condoms. Whatever it took to not get pregnant before Iwanted to.-I guess you would prefer that young mothers like myself who couldn’t afford a car would be better off staying home and sitting on my ass collecting welfare?????No, I wouldn’t.-and the most important one…..”what rock have you been living under?”On the contrary. My whole life I have been involved in the communtiy and experiencing as much as I can.
Can the father of your child not drive, Lori?Oh let me guess, your kid doesn’t have a dad.
So, the problem with that can be that you end up being a collector of “experiences” but never really gain any wisdom or insight about the world around you. I’m not accusing you of this (though others might) but being “worldly” and “well-rounded” does not make one a better human being. Kids that don’t get to travel or play sports or join the choir will not be severely disadvantaged in life if they have creativity, curiosity and tolerance. These qualities don’t require money or travel to foster.
That was off side Frannie. You owe Lori an apology.
I’ll apologize after she says she’s sorry for some of the off side things she’s said to me, and not a second before.
OK, that was over the line. Lori, I hope you won’t dignify that comment with a response. I’ve had enough of this self righteous cunt. This is clearly not a person who is interested in discussion. She is only interested in being superior to everyone who disagrees with her. I wash my hands of it.
Listen Bitch…..I’ve been with my children’s father for 13 years…..he is a wonderful father and when we had our first child we were in our twenties… and only had one car that I could no longer afford to keep when it broke down and I had expenses like tuition and daycare…..not that my personal life is any of your fucking business…..I now, probably make more money than you and your partner put together, but I would never think that my income makes me or my children better people…I hate people like you. Truly, go fuck yourself….and don’t forget to take your pills Bitch!
Listen Bitch…..I’ve been with my children’s father for 13 years…..he is a wonderful father and when we had our first child we were in our twenties… and only had one car that I could no longer afford to keep when it broke down and I had expenses like tuition and daycare…..not that my personal life is any of your fucking business…..I now, probably make more money than you and your partner put together, but I would never think that my income makes me or my children better people…I hate people like you. Truly, go fuck yourself….and don’t forget to take your pills Bitch!
“this world would truly be better off without you!”“I guess your solution would be to abort….which is what I hope you do if you ever find yourself in that situation….”I’m sorry, but these comments aren’t offside???
oh my this has gotten childish!Frannie, you on one hand sound like you want to be one of those everyone’s entitled to their own opinions live and let live types..but on the other you come off as one of those judgemental, over educated, middle class wack jobs who think they can pass judgement on everyone else from their high horse. YOU HAVEN’T HAD KIDS YET SO HOW DO YOU KNOW ANY OF YOUR VIEWS ARE ACTUALLY VALID?
Those are opinions and, as such, can’t possibly be wrong.
Wow. This has completely gone off the rails. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember that it’s Friday! Lighten up!
You’re right Hedgy….very childish!Frannie smells like dirty diapers!!!!!
frannie’s just looking for attention- she made a comment and now she’ stoo stubborn to realize that with all her enlightened middle class late 20’s knowledge, other people might actually know better. having actually had one of those experiences she covets so greatly and all, but actually having kids.again, she’s gonna be one of those mums who over stimulate and over schedule tehir spawn until they develop ulcers at age 7 from all the pressure to be mommy’s perfectly well rounded angel.
I LIKED playing with sticks. Now I am head stick-player-wither at my company. So there Frannie! You don’t have to be well-rounded to be successful in life.
I’m just gonna throw this out there – but does Frannie sound a bit like Kay???
YES!!I say we stone her.
And by a bit like Kay I mean unreasonable and all-around crazy!
I feel the need to point out that Kay actually defended the OP, very early in the thread. In fact, Kay was the one who coined the phrase, “stroller on”.
Oops. Sorry Kay.
Ok, I’m going to come right out and say it. I don’t think poor people should procreate. Not until they can dig themselves out of their financial hole. It’s not fair to the kids.
I already pointed that out when I called her a cunt. Cunt = Kannie
Wait… Frannie doesn’t have kids? Then why is she giving an opinion in this?
To be fair, I have already said that we should stop trying to eliminate poverty, and focus instead on eliminating the poor. Frannie’s plan, to sterilize them instead, just might be equally effective.
Frannie, you really don’t seem all that well-rounded and worldly right now. You said “My whole life I have been involved in the communtiy and experiencing as much as I can.” I wonder what kind of community you are involved in? Have you ever had any experiences with actual poor people? Or is these experiences that make you take the opinion that poor people shouldn’t procreate?
I certainly don’t condone anyone willfully having children that they can’t provide for, but I am disturbed by the changing definition of “providing”. There seems to be a growing attitude that if you can’t afford hockey gear, i-pods, trips to disneyland, or whatever other consumer culture “neccessity” you want to name, then you can’t afford to have children.Here comes another one of those suspiciously convenient personal experiences I am apparently always trotting out.My ex-husband’s family was dirt poor. And when I say dirt poor, I mean they had almost no cash income. My father in law suffered kidney failure shortly after his third child was born, and was unable to work a regular job for the rest of his life. They got the “baby bonus”, which at that time was around $15 per month, and a pittance of a disability allowance. On good days, he hunted and fished, and that was what they ate. They would buy hunting licenses for every member of the family, even the ones that were too young to actually hunt, so that Joe could kill enough deer to feed the family for the year. They didn’t have hockey gear, they didn’t have cable TV, and they sure as hell didn’t have family vacations. But my ex-husband and his siblings never went without food, warm clothes, or love. Their parents couldn’t provide anything beyond the neccessities, but they were damn good parents, and their kids turned out just fine. Obviously, that’s an extreme example, and one which is far less common today. I bring it up to illustrate that financial “security” is neither a neccessary nor a sufficient condition for good parenting.
and that’s exactly why Frannie’s point is so grating. She’s defining ability to provide by whats increasingly becoming an unattainable luxury- having and maintaining a car. She’s not saying parents who can’t provide food, shelter, and clothing for thier kids should be cautious about procreating- she’s saying people who can’t afford these extras society has said are ‘normal’ and ‘neccessary’ shouldn’t have kids.hogswaggle.kids need so much more than material things and fancy ‘experiences’, as miranda pointed out. I think a poor, but loving home turns out BETTER people in the long run than a rich but indifferent one. I know LOTS of people who’s parents waited until they had money to have kids, as Frannie is suggesting- they had their careers, they got marreid, and then opps I’m 37, I must have 2.5 kids in the next year to complete this picture and upgrade to the minivan suv with 16 reclining seats and 4 wheel drive. they had money, but their parents had other lives- it wasn’t about being a family, it was about hitting another life milestone and collecting another experience, this one parenthood. I’d much rather have a poorer family wher eyou know your parents care about you a lot and you feel connected enough as a family to want to contribute than to be some high powered dr or lawyers or whatevers kid with a nanny and a private school and an xbox who hardly sees my parents.
while i agree with some parts of what frannie was getting at, when she went to the shit about going for ice cream and all that, i was not with her there.I do believe however that finacially, parents should have some form of savings or what not prior to having children. If anyone has seen how some of the poorer folk in this city live, it is obvious that reporducing is a bad idea. It a) puts a strain on the welfare system b) brings a child that may get all the love in the world it needs, but it never has a chance to get to its fullest potential because the parents cant afford it. I am not talking about sports and shit like that, but kids that go to inner city schools get lesser grades than the nicer schools. You can argue that all you like, but they publish reports on what schools acheive the highest grades. its a shame in many cases. Now a car…. that isnt really a good indicator of one’s wealth, but chances are if you can afford a car…..
Wow, I take a couple days off and this exploded. I am going to waddle in with my opinion one last time…waddle as I am quite preggers at the moment.I stand behind the points I made earlier and will not re-hash them. What I would like to draw attention to is the notion of financial preparedness and/or stability as a qualifier for raising children. I grew up in a poor, rural part of NS that only became more poor with the collapse of the fishing industry. That area has produced a disproportional number of kids who have been granted full scholarships to some of the most prestigious universities in the world. Many others who have gone on to be famous in the arts, and many who work in grassroots foundations to change society through education, international fair trade, political activism, etc. Most of these kids had nothing, I mean nothing, but their families worked hard to make the best of their situation. Parents spent a huge amount of time working with their kids on school assignments, community activities, gardening and growing their experiences with that which was around them. And they loved their kids fiercely.From a financial POV none of these people would have met the standards trotted out here as a “responsible position” from which to have children. But, like other posters have noted, it is love, support, caring, and nurturing that make a family. There was a story on reddit.com a few days ago saying that most families making $100k-$600k are so over-extended that they are living cheque to cheque. Kinda blows the financial arguments to hell.In an ideal world no one would want for anything, but that is not our reality.As an aside, Frannie, that nasty comment about Lori’s child(ren) having a father. You ought to be slapped for that one. Suppose Lori a. decided she was better off as a single mom, b. left an abusive relationship, c. had religious views that did not support abortion, d. was a lesbian that wanted a child, e. was a single woman who wanted a child but not the man? There are many, many more reasons people choose to raise a child on their own. Sometimes the guy is douche and walks on his responsibility. Careful how you tar other women. There is a name for that kind of anti-woman bashing: Sarah Palin.
Frannie you fucking troll…!!!
I find it funny that you all try and make it sound like having money to raise a family is a bad thing! I have plenty of friends who came from comfortable, middle-class backgrounds and Guess what? They’re not monsters just because their parents could afford sports equipment and hockey gear. They’re good people. I’m sorry, but in 2008, love just is not enough to get you through everything. If you want to compete on the same playing field, it’s going to take more than just love.And Miles, I have had experiences with the poor. I truly feel they should concentrate on digging themselves out of their financial hole before they add another mouth to feed to the mess.
frannie, I don’t think people were that. I think they were contesting your assertion that having a car was an indicator of financial ability to have a car, or a requirement for a good childhood. it’s not. and in fact, in 2008, with global warming, rising gas prices, and a global addition to fossil fuels, frankly having a car if you don’t absolutely need one (i,e have no option like public tranist) seems irresponsible. and I’d rather poor parents than irrepsonsible ones.
I believe that in a city like Halifax, which has inadequate public transit, you just can’t get your kids everywhere they need/should get to go on the bus. They’ll be missing out on lots of opportunities.
And I find it funny that Floyd is calling me a troll just because I have a different opinion than everyone else.
first I meant having a car isn’t a financial indicator for ability to raise a child…typo..ok, no one NEEDS to go to hockey or wahtever other activity! lots of peopel don’t get to and their lives aren’t radically different, nor are the lives of kids who did get to go to music lessons or dance classes or whatever oh so radically improved than other kids. if it’s your child’s passion, that’s one thing- and in that case I think any parent would find a way to get their kid there, even on the bus (which is actually a lot better than most peopel give it credit for- it can get you to most places I think). but having a slew of ‘experiences’ to collect? doesn’t neccessarily make you a better person.and that’s I think your trouble- you believe it did it for you. but you haven’t had kids yet, so you haven’t seen it fromt he other side. but there are people on here, who have had kids, with both cars and without, telling you differently.
ps getting pouty because someone called you a troll, ‘just because you have a different opinion’ sounds like…well basically all of the trolls that lurk here. pick one, kay, gingy, the homie, they’ve all done it.just saying.people here pick on each other’s opinions. deal with it or get out. it’s part of the fun- defend your opinion or die basically 🙂
I’ve tried to back-up every point I’ve made. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t make me a troll.
yes, but if you’re going to hold wack-job opinions get used to being called one. again: my opinion is you’ve backed up your opinions with these overarching generalizations based on YOUR experience of childhood- which isn’t even your experience of raising kids, just your assumption that the way you were raised is the best/right way to do it. that, to me, makes it seem flawed. also compounded by the hugely arrogant assumption that a car is a good indicator of being ready for children, it’s just hard to accept you as anything NON trolly. if youw ere saying people should be ready for kids THAT’S ONE THING. but trying to say that before you have kids you must be able to afford a car in order to schelp the spawn to numerous activities in order to be a good parent is ludicrous.as I’ve said before: who SAYS having all those ‘experiences’ makes you a better person? I think real, valid interests and experiences you make for yourself are worth so much more than the canned experiences of organized lessons and sports that do nothing but overschedule and overstimulate kids, robbing them of their time to just be creative and children. and who SAYS you can’t have those experiences if you dont’ have a car? the bus system can totally work, as well as kids own two feet, or carpooling, all things that foster a sense of connectivity to themselves and the community, which I think is FAR more valuable than one more dance class or clarinet lesson. and finally: if we’re talkign responsibility, in a world addicted to oil and slowly killing ourselves with pollution, I beleive it’s more responsible to make the choice to live car-free and more environmentally sustainable, and teach your children that.
I didn’t say varied experiences make you a better person. I said they make you a more well-rounded person. And I think it makes perfect sense that well rounded young people are better prepared to face the world as adults. How can anyone argue that exposing young people to a wide variety of experiences and places and opportunities is a bad thing???
It’s not a bad thing, but I don’t think having access to a car with which to go to numerous activities neccessarily makes you more well rounded.nor do I think our current societal addiciton to the concept of ‘well rounded’ actually makes for better people. I haven’t had kids yet so I’m just spit balling here but:what prepares us best for the real world, I think, is being open minded, and wanting to seek out new experiences for ourselves. being plunked into situations by our parents don’t neccessarily make us appreciate them- look at all the people who loathed kiddie sports but now play soccer in the park with their freinds or whatever on sunday afternoons. and ‘well rounded’? what does that even MEAN? As adults we all specialize- we do what we like and how we like. I suck at math and don’t like sports- as a kid, in the name of being well rounded, I could be subjected to organized sports and math classes. as an adult I can avoid both like the plague and concentrate on what I’;m good at. at no other point in our lives will we have to be good at everythign liek when you’re a kid. I’d rather kids who are raised to know themselves and embrace their passions and talents rather than parents so addicted to the concept of creating well rounded offspring that they schlep little timmy off to 16 different activities and plan to expose them to learnign experiences constnatly, as opposed to just letting them be kids and letting experiences spontenously erupt where they may, or better yet, let the kids make their own expeirneces and discover the world for themselves without a gas guzzling car.
How do kids find their passion if they’re not exposed to a variety of experiences? Maybe Timmy will never find out that he’s a budding guitar hero if not given the opportunity to experience music? Maybe Sarah will never know that she loves cross country running, if never given the chance to compete.As adults we get to choose what we like and dislike, what we want do to and what we don’t. But how will kids ever know what they like, or what they’re good at, if they’re never given the chance to at least try things out/
and they can have that chance without a car.whats more, if their activities are not limited by mom and dad having to drive them places, they can actually experience MORE and sculpt their own passions, instead of only being able to participate in activities when mom and dad are available and willing to drive them. if your child requires a car to get them to all of their activities all the time, something’s wrong.
Frig,Yet another childless woman telling the rest of us how we should take care of our kids or where their proper place in society is. *rollseyes*You can’t coach if you’ve never played the game.
oh lilac, don’t even get me STARTED on kids appropriate place in society; while I agree with you that those of us without spawn are at best waxing poetic about how we think kids should be raised etc, when it comes to where they should be? hells yes I have an opinion, as that person who’s meal/movie/whatever is being ruined by tiny idiots and their equally idiotic parents.
Frig, yet another “I’ve had children therefore I’m superior to everyone and know everything” type.What’s that saying, those who can’t do, teach?
OH Lord, this is still going on?Bottom line – Frannie is still trying to justify her opinion of “no strollers on buses” by saying she has the best interest of the children in mind, ex: car = more experiences. When really her opinion is based on selfishness. ex: not wanting to have to squeeze by a stroller.Frannie, I highly doubt you’ve been involved in “the community” your whole life, but you have no tollerance for people with children on buses….please, who do you think you’re fooling?For the Record – Not everyone on the bus with kids is “poor” on “on welfare” and I’ve known people on welfare who own cars…so, so much for your theory you fucking troll…..give up, fuck off, and find somewhere else to express your narrow-minded opinions!
Frannie,I have to deal with your sort of opinions almost everyday. What is wrong with putting the environment first? My son takes piano at home, we just spent all of yesterday at Point Pleasnat Park, he’s involved in local nature clubs that take kids on fieldtrips through car-pooling. A few times a year we rent a car to do different things around the province or to travel up to Montreal or elsewhere. We go to Fort Needham and play on swings and pick blueberries. We ride bikes and play in lakes. We do all of this without owning a car. We live in a world now that expects people to do everything in the blink of an eye. Our society needs to slow down. We would all benefit from just taking TIME to spend with our kids. Someone posted that the half an hour it would take walking with the family to the park or ice cream stand was family time well spent and I would definately agree. Time spent with your kids in the back seat of your car while you are in the front seat driving, doesn’t sound like a great place to learn or have conversations or give spontaneous hugs.You can hold hands with your kids when you’re walking. It’s kinda hard to do that in a SUV.
thanks lilac…I never thought you and I would agree on anything (I wrote about the walk being good family time)…is this a sign of the apocolypse?
What Frannie can’t seem to comprehend is that nobody is saying it’s a BAD thing to have a car and drive your kids to a million different places so they can have all these valuable experiences. Nobody is refuting the claim that having a car makes it easy to do things that would be difficult or impossible without one. All anyone here is saying is that there are alternatives to the lifestyle Frannie espouses. And she seems to take that as an attack on the validity of that lifestyle. As if there has to be a right way to live, and every other way must by definition be wrong.
Frannie, I am not calling you a troll for having a different opinion… I am calling you a troll because you are a fucking troll…
its funny that the people here are fixated on her being a troll.One thing that is missed is that she has addressed actual facts. Many people here are missing out the fact that many kids are told they “CANT” join sports teams or take school trips because parents CANT afford it. This is fact. Now just because all the posters in here seem to have all their shit together, doesnt mean society at a whole does. What is being missed here by the anti-frannie fan club is that lots of kids arent getting to thier full potential, as costs of shit HAS put lots of stuff out of reach. Someone said that they have a kid taking piano lessons at home. You are right, you didnt need a car for that, BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD A TEACHER THAN MAKES FUCKING HOUSE CALLS. sometimes you people need to look past yourself before chewing out others. Some of the shit frannie has said is silly, but lots of validity here.
No Homie, you seem to have missed the point (which is easy to do with this many comments on a single bitch) The original post is about strollers on buses not how much money you should save before having children. To assume that someone on a bus with a kid is irresponsible is fucking backwards and ridiculous which makes Frannie a troll. Her opinion that “poor” people shouldn’t have kids is somewhat valid, it’s her screwed up opinion of what “poor” is that is fucked and also makes her a troll.Kids who come from lots of money and have everything handed to them are ungrateful little bastards. Why should a child be able to do evrything and have everything they want? Is this preparing them to be REAL, productive, caring members of society? FUCK NO! When I was growing up I had to choose which trips I wanted to go on, (cause my parents couldn’t afford them all)…I learned to enjoy myself while on them while the rich kids bitched and complained about irrelevent, petty shit.I also had to choose which sports I wanted to play (cause my parents couldn’t afford them all) …I learned that basketball was my passion and played all over Canada and the US, and that soccer was something I did for fun at school. While the rich kids who got new kicks every year, never put in 100% at practise or on the court!What’s wrong with “Yes, you can play hockey.” But “No, honey, you can’t be a goalie!” Kids need to realize that life is all about choices, and that some involve money, otherwise we’ll end up with a society full of trolls like Frannie…..And who, in their right mind, wants that? FUCK THAT!
actually lori, try reading my comment that I AGREE WITH SOME POINTS.To say that if you have a stroller you arent a parent that can …… I dont totally agree with that. However, i do agree with the fact that this kid will likely miss out on some of the things that a parent with thier own transportation can provide. “Kids who come from lots of money and have everything handed to them are ungrateful little bastards. Why should a child be able to do evrything and have everything they want?”this statement allow shows you have a bias and lots of the shit you are going to say is nonsense. I came from a family that had lots of money. I am not ungrateful. I am thankful they worked as hard as they did. Many of the people i grew up with were the same. Of course there is some spoiled people, but when you talk like you are…. clearly your point is to attack Franny. The actual stuff said has merit. Not all of it, but many of you are attacking points with personal shit…. and that is missing the point. Do not use you as an example
and if you do not believe that you are biased as hell about this topic Lori… you are suggesting that the way you were raised is the way to go…. look how many times you use the word “I” in your last post to me. Your route might have worked for you, but for many other kids…. it didnt work. You also make the point “you can play hockey but you cant play goalie”, but how many kids arent even able to play hockey because the parents cant afford to even get them on the ice? Look at inner city youth and tell me how many of them are great hockey stars? you dont see many. The next Crosby might never get a chance cause mom and pop cant afford it. Society can help you a few years, but it takes many years to become a Crosby and society only hands out so many freebies.Back to the stroller thing, i dont think being on a bus is indicitive of the finacial resources of a parent. My son’s mother and i can not drive because of my vision and her sever motion sickness (takes pills for long trips).
Fact : A child from a middle income family is not (likely) going to be a tennis star or sailing expert. (As these activities are usually reserved for the more wealthy).Does this mean that middle income families shouldn’t have children?Becoming a “Crosby” does not involve wealth as much as it involves dedication and commitment from a very early age. There are plenty “poor” kids in my community who play hockey with the help of community and if any of them showed the potential and commitment of becoming a mega star, someone in the community would most deffinately step up and sponsor such talent. Happens all the time….most mega sports stars and successful musicians DID NOT come from wealthy families that exposed them to EVERY sport and EVERY instrument.As for me being bias on the subject, well maybe I am, considering for 2 straight years I dealt with bitches like Frannie, tsk tsking or shaking their heads at me while I struggled with a baby on a busy bus. As far as attacking her….well maybe you missed the part where she assumed my child didn’t have a father because I was using the bus!
ok, first off,tennis isnt a sport that money has anything to do with. If you were as educated on the topic as you think, you would see that the top 50 in the world DO NOT come from countries that are well to do. Russian tennis players come from some POOR regions. So spare me the nonsense. Being the next Crosby DOES takes lots of money. Ice time, equipment, transportation, hotel rooms for tourneys…. it adds up for kids from 6-14 years old. That is a LOT of money. I dont know who you are fooling. Also, your comment about if you are a young star……. that is fine if you are a young phenom, and a phenom is what you would have to be for others to wanna toss bucks your way… but what about kids that are late bloomers? They might never have the chance to develop that talent because they didnt start at a young age. I didnt get into Volley ball till i was 16 and i made the national team. What would i have been if i played younger? I could have went pro… but money for travelling, (for more than 1 sport) wasnt there. I picked baseball. you sayit happens all the time…… i assure you… there is FAR more examples of kids that dont get the breaks than there is kids that do
To The Homie;One can have happy memories of riding the bus; one can have happy memories riding in their parent’s car.There is nothing more to it.I fail to understand how Frannie, in a time when gas prices are at record highs, doesn’t recognize this and also has the audacity to assume that children using public transportation will grow up with bad memories of childhood and that they come from families too poor to raise children in the first place.This is why we are jumping on Frannie, The Homie. And no, she doesn’t have “actual facts” and “lots of validity”. She has a biased opinion, much like a lot of people on these boards, and much like you have been advocating is reprehensible.“Many kids are told they “CANT” join sports teams or take school trips because parents CANT afford it. This is fact.” While we all appreciate your attempts at being the Devil’s Advocate, you have totally missed the point of why people are arguing here.We’re not talking about school trips and sport teams. We’re talking about children riding the metro transit and how it won’t result in a damaged childhood, as Frannie is so apt to believe. In any event, waiting for the bus and using the public services available to us build more character and independence than being chauffeured around by their mother.
you care too much what other people think… raise your kid and let her grow old waiting for the right time. Also with all the actives and events she has planned her kids are going to hate her anyways…kids want to chill with their friends not have a million things jammed into their day by their folks!Family things are good but when they are on a schedule they start to blow… maybe im alone but she seems like she might be anal about things…lol
Why would anyone WANT to have children before their financially ready?
Frannie, how much money does a family need to be “financially ready” for kids?
There’s no magic number. But I think parents should have a nice little nest egg saved up, and they shouldn’t be living paycheque to paycheque. How else are you supposed to start saving for their education, or deal with emergencies that come up?
OK, Frannie. I am going to type reeeaaaally slowly. Of course nobody should have children before they are financially prepared to do so. Nobody on this board has suggested that people should go around spawning whenever the spirit moves them, no matter what their resources. The closest anybody came to that was to point out that people CAN be poor and still be good parents. What you are getting nailed for is your rigid definition of “financially ready”, and your insistence that a car is an essential component of that readiness. The argument that strollers don’t belong on the bus because those kids should be riding around in a car, and that parents who bring strollers on the bus are de facto bad parents, is bullshit.
The one thing that is being totally ignored here is the kids themselves. Some kids, however poor or however wealthy, find their way and become successful adults. Some other kids, however wealthy or however poor, never find their way and become losers.Kids are – guess what? – little PEOPLE! They have their own innate wishes and desires and talents and faults, and they are pretty good at figuring out what’s what all by themselves.I think the bigger point that is being missed in all of this is that kids can be involved in as many activities as they want – they can be soccer stars, musical prodigies, soup-kitchen-volunteering champions, A+ students, AND debate team pros – but if their every move for their entire life has been orchestrated by a well-meaning but totally controlling parent, in the interest of making them “well-rounded” – they might still walk into young adulthood COMPLETELY unprepared for life.I’ve met friends who didn’t know how to cook. At all. Like, were baffled by things like potatoes. Or didn’t have a clue as to how to load laundry. Or tell a bus when to stop. Or put change in a meter. Or have a conversation about another person’s needs or desires. Or talk to a professor or boss about options for advancement.Because their wealthy, ambitious, well-meaning, and super-helpful parents did absolutely everything for them. Protected them from the world. Saved their time from menial tasks so they could focus on “valuable” tasks like becoming “well-rounded”. Ran interference for them if any of those pesky teachers got in the way at school. etc. etc.Frannie, in all seriousness, you sound at risk of being one of those parents.These kids are now very talented, very nice, very “experienced” young adults who are totally clueless about how to live day-to-day life. They also tend to be incredibly self-absorbed. Nt in a mean way, just in that wounded-doe-eyed who-me? kind of way that tells you they are not at all used to thinking about anything other than what’s next on their own agendas (that mom and dad wrote for them).Now, of course, not all over-stimulated, over-indulged, over-protected, over-prepared kid will turn out his way. But many will, whether wealthy or poor.
OMFG is this thread still propagating. Jesus 171 comments. Someone pleaseeeeeeeee put Frannie away once and for all. I was one the 1st posters on this topic. . I’ll just interject that she ” Frannie ” is a stick stuck in the mud in her opinion. You won’t be able to pull the stick from the mud. Better to just push the stick until you don’t see it anymore. No offense Frannie, but enough is enough.
People have accused me of straying too far from the original post, so I offer this:If you do insist on taking a kid on the bus, put it in your lap and fold up the stroller so that people can get by. If you want to sprawl with all your crap, take a cab.
gotta love lori…as usual, when it requires you to comment on something factual, and you cant, you resort to stupidity like “he is tappin that ass” Way to go. Sometimes, you are worht listening to, other times like this…… just stop.
Lori that is such a white trash thing to say. Get some class.
My experience in dealing with homelessness is this. People will only help you if they can see that you are willing to help yourself. If they believe that you are only homeless because shit happened and you are in transition they they will assist. Shit, they even tried to use their influence to try hook me up with a temp job. They saw that even though shit happened I was driven to claw myself back from financial ruin and to hell with my situation, I am not going to let this break me. Now, I am a technical consultant with two wonderful kids, a loving wife, a decent car and a nice place in Spryfield (because it is cheap and has some nice houses but a misplaced bad reputation) I’m happy, although it is murder to save up the money to take my family to see their grandparents (different country and it’s like 1k per person to travel).See, there are people who pitty themselves. Fuck them, who cares. Then there are people who realise that shit happens and decides to make something of themselves. I respect them. And if they are working to make their family and take the bus, more power to them. Imagine if EVERYONE had a car, be quicker to walk then. Cars are expensive and sometimes unnecessary. The inital cost of the car, the upkeep, gas, insurance and that’s EVERY YEAR! Fuck sometimes I think I would save money taking the bus but I don’t want to take an hour and a half to get home. *shrug* I feel for people using the bus, I had to take it and storllers arn’t fun to lug around but if people respect other’s boundries and don’t block their way, then it shouldn’t be a problem and it isn’t a reflection on their way of life. I have a car and my wife REFUSES to get a license because she is AFRAID of driving. Would you want that person on the road just because they can afford to? Would you feel safe? Or would you rather have them use public transport because they feel more comfortable having someone else drive?Think about that for a second, the bus driver might just be saving your life.
This has been going on long enough, everything I needed to say was said long before you gave your 2 cents, Homie! It’s gone so far off the original topic that my point is…who really gives a fuck anymore?
EXHIBIT A THAT PEOPLE ARE MISSING FRANNIE’S POINT….Miranda so eloquently states…”The closest anybody came to that was to point out that people CAN be poor and still be good parents.”at no point did frannie suggest they couldnt be good parents. At no point did she suggest this is child abuse or anything of the sort. At no point did frannie suggest this kid couldnt play pro sports when they get older….frannie is merely stating that being finacially prepared for a kid is recommended. Its funny that people seem to miss this and rather focus on the stats of her posts. Her comments are pretty obvious and general, but it seems the Nazi’s of the site or fixated on the tidbits of the generalized statements.
viego, i never talked about school teams or trips. I talked about kids that play for non school teams. I am talking about kids that have to go to music lessons. Many parents simply cant afford that.PAY ATTENTION YOU FUCK.its brutal that some people need shit spelled out. I am hardly playing devil’s advocate, its pretty obvious that many parents cant afford lots of shit, thusly many kids that could be the next (insert hero of any peticular profession) will never get there because the parents cant afford it. That is robbing a child of potential greatness.could you imagine how the world would and the great one himself would have been cheated it Walter Gretzky couldnt afford to send Wayne to all the games and practices he did? There are most likely hundreds of kids that were lesser of talent, but never got a chance, because the parents couldnt keep up with the costs.
Homie, Frannie’s POINT was that parents should not be bringing strollers on the bus, because if they were good and responsible parents they would have a CAR to schlepp those children around in. Everything she has said since then was in defence of that point. She has certainly said some things that are perfectly valid, but none of them lend credence to her original stupid comment.
Homie,Seriously chill out. It cost like $15 for the piano teacher to come by for an hour lesson. That’s actually less than over at most music schools. In Toronto they have free music lessons at some places for kids, something easily done without a car there. Here a lot of people put their names down on bartering boards to exchange skills. I know someone who is exchanging the occassional homecooked meal for guitar lessons that they got off of putting their name up on the bartering board at the Brewery Market.Try to talk about what you know about. It might help you.I could have an old beater car, but I’m not going to get one until el-cheapo hydrogen ones come out, which may not be for a good long while. But I’m hopeful.There’s a great program called Kid’s Sport, where if you apply they’ll pay for whatever sport you want to put your kid in. They have loads of spaces. http://www.sportnovascotia.ca/kidsport/what.htm
Comments made by The Homie……..” I came from a family that had lots of money. I am not ungrateful.””I didnt get into Volley ball till i was 16 and i made the national team. What would i have been if i played younger? I could have went pro… but money for travelling, (for more than 1 sport) wasnt there.”So, which is it? Did you come from a family with lots of money or not? Aren’t you the same guy who stayed in a homeless shelter for fun..errr…for your own benefit?One last question, Homie….Are you tappin that ass? (Frannie’s, that is)
lori, use your head you moron.we had the money, but my parents werent the type that paid for every single fuckin thing i wanted to do. I had to make choices. My parents became well off, by being shrewd. It wasnt a sound investment to toss me in every sport that i wanted to join. Use your fuckin head.and yes i did stay in a homeless shelter, but obviously you read what you want…. i did it because i didnt know anything about the lifestyle. I didnt know what being homelss was really like. Like many at that shelter, i had a job. Many of them go to labor ready each morning at 5am. Of course you know all this..and lilac, i would love to know where you can get a piano teacher that cheap. A quick call today… and oh….. guess what…. i never found one that was close to that rate.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHH you are a fool if you think that site will get you in to any real leagues. It will get you $300 towards a sport….. show me one sport that costs that. If you point our registration, ok, but i would like you to tack on transportation costs, tournament fees, equipment, in many sports you also have to come up with officiating money….. take that site and stick it up your ass if you think that is really going to accomplish anything. It is something that helps, but a person that lives pay check to paycheck, isnt going to get much from that cashhttp://www.halifaxhawks.com/files/regn_package_download_20080913_.pdfyou cant join a single team with your $300http://www.halifaxminorbaseball.com/files/2008_registration_form.doclook, your kid can play baseball, but once you tack a glove and cleats on (remember, you need new shit each year as your kid grows) he can get to the games and what not on his own, better hope they dont go away for tournaments.
Franni, pumpkin, I’ll answer you over here in the original thread.No, of course I don’t think people who can’t afford to feed, clothe or shelter themselves *should* run off and make babies. (But I also realize that sometimes life gets in the way and the best of intentions go out the window.)No one in this thread is suggesting otherwise. No one is saying babies are a good idea when you can’t support even yourself. No one is saying houses, and education, and sports, and transportation are BAD for children.None of that is in dispute.What is in dispute is what has evolved over the course of this discussion into a contention that:”Stroller on bus” = “Too poor to feed, clothe, and shelter one’s self”It’s a ludicrous example of extreme black-and-white, conclusion-jumping, make-an-ass-out-of-you-and-me, shrill, blindered thinking. You’ve taken the smallest little detail and catatrophiszed it into this huge multi-layered picture of deprivation and depravity. It’s so over the top as to be laughable. Yet you cling to it with increasing stubborn desperation.I’m just trying to say to you – let it go. No one will laugh at you if you let it go. I promise.
I understand what you are saying Homie.Your parents have money.They don’t want to WASTE their money on your every whims, unless they wanted to get broke.They wanted you to prove you wanted it badly enough to try work for it.That builds character and appreciation for what you wanted. Likewise, your dad could be Bill fucking Gates and that means shit all for YOUR financial life. You could be in a shelter and your parents be rich as fuck. Means you wanted to be your own man and fell on hard times but didn’t go crying to mommy or daddy with their fat cheque books. That builds character too, and helps you appreciate every penny you make. Shit, I was homeless once upon a time, but that helped me get low enough to realise that I am never going to go that way again and helped me develop my hustle and work ethic. Priviladge sometimes spoils rotten to the core and results in people not appreciating what they have or can get. Sometimes it takes a kick in the balls for you to realise just how big they are.
caution gimpy…. to understand that and not insult that might leave you on the outs here.These folk have chastized me for wanting to go and actually live like a homeless person even though i was well off. These are the same people here that have made comments that are factually incorrect about many of the homeless people they comment about and about the Metro Turning point itself. They seem to all know because they know someone who knows someone that stayed there a few nights. That wasnt good enough for me. To just listen to a guy talk for a few minutes didnt put me in there shoes nor help me understand. The “elitists” around here seem to think i was doing somethign so wrong by actually living in that place.
while i dont totally agree that being on a bus with a stroller means you are not a good parent or anything like that… there is validity to the having a car as a sign of being finacially ready for a child. You dont see to many poor folk with cars.
“These kids are now very talented, very nice, very “experienced” young adults who are totally clueless about how to live day-to-day life. They also tend to be incredibly self-absorbed. Nt in a mean way, just in that wounded-doe-eyed who-me? kind of way that tells you they are not at all used to thinking about anything other than what’s next on their own agendas (that mom and dad wrote for them).”Jammie you’ve concluded that all kids who come from privileged backgrounds (and I remind you that I did not) are selfish and ill prepared for the world. That sounds pretty black and white to me…Hi pot, meet the kettle.
yup, he’s definately tappin that ass!
frannie said: “Jammie you’ve concluded that all kids who come from privileged backgrounds (and I remind you that I did not) are selfish and ill prepared for the world. That sounds pretty black and white to me…”Frannie – you are incorrect. I specifically pointed out that obviously not all people turn out that way. I specifically said that it depends on the kid, not the background. I specifically said that it does not matter if they are rich o rpoor.You seem to have missed all of this.You are deseparate to score a poin, any point, because you know you have been soundly trouced over and over and over again. You are pathetic.
WHERE THE HELL IS QWERTY?!
I’d day she’s on vacation. Most people seem to post on here during their work days, not from home 🙂
I KNOW!!!I’m guessing vacation….but she’s missing out.
I am so sad re no Qwerty, that I hardly come out here anymore…. It just ain’t the same… It must be a long long vacation…One things for sure, she would have set that frannie straight by now…
Oh I’m not sure anyone can do that Floyd. But it would be fun to watch her try.
Homie,You’re an absolute ass.
Lori, are you suggesting that the Homie tap *himself*??
I highly doubt anyone is going to “set me straight”, but feel free to try.Could be that you’re all up in arms because you’re *gasp* jealous??? Maybe you wish you had made some wiser decisions in the past??? That you could afford your own home, a car, etc. by now? I’m just sayin’…
wow. this is unblieveable. i do have a question. why would you bring a stoller and a car seat on the bus. if you have a stoller what do you need a care seat for?
Teddy – I think it’s one of those strollers that comes with an infant car seat that fits inside to make it safe for an infant. Most regular strollers are designed for toddlers who can sit up on their own.
Yes, clearly we’re all mocking you out of intense jealousy franfran.I’m all green about it and everything.
Oh and Fran, I own my home and car as well, but no matter how much you want to believe it, it does not make you better than someone who doesn’t!
I never once said it made you better. Please don’t put words in my mouth.And Lori, I thought you shunned cars???
Ok Frannie, this has been a real blast all week. But it’s time to come clean now. You’ve just been having a go with us right? After all this discussion about buses and poverty and parenting, do you at least see the point others are trying to make that you can’t look at a mom with a stroller on the bus and say something like “With all due respect Lori, you shouldn’t have been having kids you couldn’t afford. I have no sympathy for you.” Can you see that there are lots of legitamate reasons for a mom, wealthy or poor, to be on a bus, with a kid and not be a bad parent or poor life planner? Because that’s really what people are on you about. People have agreed with you that financial stability contributes to a happy, healthy family, why do you refuse to see that mom’s who take their kids on the bus (not necessarily all the time either) are not necessarily poor or irresponsible?
Yes, we’re all jealous.Of someone we’ve never met, who claims to be so well rounded, what with those oh so happy memories of childhood, which im sorry, sound like a fucking after school special. Look, this thread has been some amusing reading material for us all, but Frannie, you’re actually starting to sound quite delusional. Most of the people who have commented on this side show of a thread probably have thier own homes, and can afford a car. You calling them jealous only proves just how wierd you truly are.Let it go lady. The horse is dead. Really dead.
If you read my original post you’d see that I hated the bus, and having to deal with people who thought I had no place there, like yourself! I owned a car when I was 16, didn’t have one for a few years while I was in college, and now I pray I’ll never have to use it again, because I truly hate it.However, if I do ever find myself in that situation again, I do have the RIGHT to use public transportation, with or without a stroller!And you never had to actually say the words “I think I’m better than so and so”…..it is pretty easy to figure out that you are that kind of person.
But I DON’T have any sympathy for women who have children before they are ready/can afford them. In this day and age, there is NO EXCUSE for unplanned pregnancy.
Ok Frannie, that was the kind of response I thought you would give. You completely ignored the actual point of my post (admitting that not EVERY woman with a kid on a bus is a poor and/or irresponsible mother) and zeroed in on defending the same, tired arguement that many people have at least partly agreed with. Dialogue, for normal, well-adjusted and well-rounded people involves an exchange of ideas. You don’t do that. You just stick to your guns no matter what. I wasn’t trying to get you to change your opinion about poor people having kids, just trying to get you to see that, again, not EVERY mom on a bus with a kid and a stroller is poor or irresponsible. Your sweeping generalizations are not going to help your kids become as well-rounded as you want them to be.
FINE Frannie, fine…..the point is (typing really slowly) not every child on a bus is the result of unplanned pegnancy! Geesh, do you get it yet?
You’re right Miles, not all of them are. I would go so far as to say MOST of them are poor though. Or else they like dressing like they’re poor. My partner and I share our car, so I take the bus to work 50% of the time. It’s not like I don’t see who these women with kids on the bus are. I’m not just making this up for the fun of it. Most (not all) of them look like they have no idea where their next meal is coming from.
Did you plan to have a kid while you were in college Lori?
I’m curious now Frannie, why do you think there are poor people in Halifax?
Nope, I planned to go back to college after I had a kid. People do it all the time out here in the real world.
Sure Miles, I’ll take your bait. There are plenty of reasons why people are poor in Halifax, or anywhere else, for that matter. Maybe they slacked off in high school, couldn’t get into university, and now can’t get a good job. Maybe they weren’t responsible about sex, and had a baby as a teenager. Maybe they’re just too lazy. Mostly though, I think it comes down to bad decisions. We all have the opportunity to work hard in school. We all have the opportunity to further our education (scholarships, bursaries, loans, etc.) We all have the opportunity to make a better life for ourselves.
And is making more money a requirement for a “better life”?Do you think that there are people who are poor and happy? Are there no poor people who maybe value family over money? Kids over cars? Sure some poverty is due to the things you describe. But there are a lot of hard working, determined poor people out there who are decent, well-rounded, well-adjusted human beings. I don’t know what you don’t see them…but trust the rest of us when we say, they are there. I don’t know if you have ever actually been poor, but I don’t think it is always the negative experience you seem to make it out to be.
What is good about being poor, Miles?
Well, my experiences with poverty are from the perspective of a rural Nova Scotian, so I admittedly don’t know much about urban poverty. The money is clearly NOT good about poverty, but poor people and poor communities are especially good at looking out for one another. Poverty often forces people to work together, and often bartering of skills and services is used in poor communities to substitute for cash. Poverty can promote innovation and adaptation. Poverty in rural areas often translates into people becoming less dependent on commercial products as they learn to grow and raise their own food and learn how to fix things that wealthier people would just replace. The work ethic among some poor people is better than many well-off individuals. They are jacks of all trades becuase they have never said no to work. I can go on, but I hope you see my point. I am not saying that every poor person fits this description, but I have known many who do. I am also aware that all of these positive qualities I have described can be attained in middle class and wealthy families too, but poverty can serve as a driving force for developing some very special and important human characteristics.Many of the most genuine, kind and wise people I have met in my life come from very humble backgrounds.
Forgive me if I believe life is better enjoyed when one is not worrying about how to feed the children/getting evicted because you can’t pay the rent/stressing about heating the house.
See, this is the stonewall we keep hitting with you. I am NOT saying poverty is better. I am NOT saying, you are wrong in thinking financial stability is better. You just have to learn that not everyone prioritizes financial stability as high as you, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just different. Your idea of a perfect life is just the perfect one for you. Other people will have other ideas of ideal, and that should not be poo-pooed by you or anyone else.
Ok, fine. I’m sure there are a few poor people who are as happy as pigs in shit. I have to think that the vast majority though, wish they weren’t poor.
Frannie, there is a BIG difference between being evicted and not being able to have a car. As I said in a previous post as well, in this economy, LOTS of people live paycheque to paycheque; particularily as consumerist attitudes like yours, where life value is assigned to a number in a bank account, mean that often the bigger the paycheque, the bigger the bills to keep that ‘lifestyle’.maybe those ‘poor’ people on the bus dress from walmart because they’re saving for their kids education, or because they’re going back to school, or a thousand other reasons. or maybe they fall into a category like me, who has a career I love, that’s fullfilling and exciting and perfect for me but…..pays a ridiculously low wage. I’m university educated, in a professional career, but I’m going to be living pay cheque to pay cheque for at least the first decade of my career, and even after that I’m never going to be making huge pots of money. does that mean I should never have kids or I’m a bad or less valuable person?
I have been following this conversation a little, and just feel I need to say that of course life is better ‘enjoyed’ with money! But enjoyment is not the purpose of living. There are plenty of people around the world who have a far from enjoyable life, but their goals and values have nothing to do with ‘enjoyment’. Life is not easy for everyone, and if you don’t have to worry about money, and you do enjoy it…then count that as a priviledge! You should be satisfied with you life, and not feel the need to look down on others because they are not as fortunate as you.
Funny you all keep calling me a consumerist. I’ll have you know I’m not. While I do think you should have a car when you have kids, I don’t drive a fancy car myself. I don’t wear expensive designer clothes. My television is an older model. I really don’t buy a lot of crap that I don’t need.
FranFran, it’ snot what you have ubt the value you place on having it
Athough Hedgy just touched on it, I’ll say it again anyway. Frannie…do you really think everyone living above the poverty line is happy as a pig in shit? Also, I don’t think poor people are happy to be poor, but that doesn’t keep them from being happy, or kind, or loving. You seem to think that poor people are the dregs of society. Poor people are no more likely to be dicks and assholes than middle class or rich people. Nor are they more likely to be wise and caring. People are just people. They are shaped by their experiences, and there are good things to be gained from those experiences no matter how much money goes into gaining them.
Whatever. Keep telling yourselves that.
I guess I value having stable housing, reliable transportation, and enough money in the bank that if an emergency situation arose, I’d be comfortable for a least 4-5 months.
I don’t really want to respond, since this topic has spiralled way out of control. But in response to “The Homie’s” post directed at me, I can see why topics such as these drone on forever is a mess of comprehension issues.”could you imagine how the world would and the great one himself would have been cheated it Walter Gretzky couldnt afford to send Wayne to all the games and practices he did? There are most likely hundreds of kids that were lesser of talent, but never got a chance, because the parents couldnt keep up with the costs.”I fail to understand, how after all that was written and the clear OP that you come up with children’s potential being held back by financial restraints.I get it, The Homie. Wayne Gretzky could not have become such a great hockey player if the resources were not provided for him.But what does that have to do with anything we were talking about?I kid you not, The Homie, we were talking about metro transit, strollers, and biased opinions of children who ride the bus. And through your raging anger, you spew names at people like it justifies your frustration.You should take your own advice, The Homie, and “PAY ATTENTION”, because you’re the one who’s on the wrong page. Just because you can’t wrap your head around a discussion doesn’t give you cause to flaunt your unrelated bullshit, as if trying to make a point.
And who has said valuing those things is wrong?
And Frannie, you make me sick with disgust. I hope you realize that your financial freedom comes from being born (I assume) in North America. And having won the conception lottery, much of your success comes from the hundreds of organizations that led you there. Whether it be public education, libraries, or financial aid from families.I hope you realize, Frannie, that over %90 of the worlds population was born without the wealth of resources that were so available to you, and without those resources you’d probably be at the bottom of the pile.You wouldn’t last one week if you stepped outside of your Canadian middle-class bubble and experienced what the majority of the world experiences every day.
So odes everyone else value those things Frannie. That was never what this discussion was about. And you know it. You know it and you continue to blatantly ignore the fact, because yo are having too much fun baiting everyone with your over the top remarks.Everyone has to stop taking the bait. Stop giving the troll what it wants.
Frannie, I think the root of the problem here is that you have a very distorted and negative impression of poor people. I don’t know if that is because you have no experience with actual poor people, or because you have had bad experiences with actual poor people or maybe you are just really afraid of being poor.
I think the problem is that Frannie is an ignorant cunt. After reading this board i have never seen a better example.
Frannie, try and look at the bigger picture for a moment… There are lot more poor people in the world than there are rich people… These people are not poor because of the bad choices they make… They are poor because that is how the wealth of the world is distributed… The same thing is true, albeit to a lesser extent, in Canada… If you understand that then you understand a bit about the realities of the world economy… And if you understand a bit about demographics, then you know that the survival of our species depends (among other things) upon there being enough people coming behind us to maintain us when we are old and can no longer provide for ourselves… And if everyone followed your standard of being able to afford a car before having kids, well the species including you, would die out pretty damn quick…Is that what you want…?? Well… Is it..???
Viego, I see you & I have a similar idea re the bigger picture… Frannie’s ideas work only on a very micro-micro-economic argument, which just falls apart when taken out in the real world…
Poor Miles, trying so hard to engage in rational discussion. It hurts me to see you doing this to yourself, baby. Some people cannot be reasoned with. I would guess Frannie’s age to be about 24 or 25. Probably a fairly recent university graduate. I would be willing to make a small wager she is also free of significant student loan debt. She most likely has a pretty good job in a growing field. Her carefully planned future is so bright, she’s gotta wear shades.But geezers like us, Miles, know full well that life may very well intrude upon Frannie’s carefully laid plans, and trample them into the mud of unforseeable circumstances. Only when the bubble has been burst will she be able to see outside of it.
And she’ll see us laughing uncontrollably as we pelt her with bus passes and stroller wheels.
Sigh. I know Miranda…you are right. I thought maybe I could make some progress by exploring Frannie’s opinions of poverty and poor people, but alas, we just ended up at the same place we started. In my defence though….I poked the bear becuase I was a little bored at work.
I can’t wait for my delinquent son to impregnate her apple-picking, choir-singing, hockey-playing daughter in 16 years.
hey now, let’s not tar all mid-20’s recent grads with jobs with the same crackhead FranFran brush people 🙂 SOME of us aren’t as wacky, at least we like to think so…but I do agree; FranFran needs her world to explode before she’ll realize she can’t plan everything, and her carefully coddled and cultivated definition of poor, will change. my guess is she was one of those students, and now one of those people, who never had to do without the good juice, know what I mean? her standard of living probably didn’t change AT ALL from her parents house, who had worked 30 plus years to get to the comfy middle class, to her own house. It probably shoudl have, and one day it will- those of us who suddenly found ourselves paying for gas with the change we find under our couch, or carefully watching every single penny as we start our careers are better for it, I think. we have a realistic idea of what exactly the world is like, and how hard it is to get the good things- which we appreciate when we get them.She’s in for a rude awakening when the economy hits her hard. as I said before, there are MANY different levels of poor, and I would challenge her to find many other people out there, right now, at her age and stage and possibly many others, who’d be ok for 5 months without an income. Living paycheque to paycheque is becoming more and more normal- in fact I think it always was. it doesn’t mean you should be out spawning or even getting a cat before you know for sure your salary can cover your food each month, but I think most people’s pay covers their costs and that’s it. What their costs are are defined by the culture we and they live in- and I think too many people buy into Frannie’s notion that in order to be good, adult type people, you need a certain lifestyle, which comes with shiny expensive accessories like cars.she never answered my question and I’d like to know, as I think you’re all right that she has a thing about poor people: I’m university educated. I have a professional career. I love my job. It fulfills me in all sorts of tingly ways and I think it may actually be making a very small difference in some very small ways. But it pays jack shit. the industry as a whole pays jack shit. it’s a tough world, and I’m going to be selling my possessions now and again to eat and living cheque to cheque well into my 30’s. Does this mean I shouldn’t have children? Cause if I have to wait till I can live, and support a family, comfortably for 5 months without working…I’ll never have them.
Hedgie, my dear child, I would never ever tar you with that particular brush. You are an example of what happens to children who grow up experiencing challenges and limits. They learn to cope with adversity, as well as plan for it. They learn perspective and flexibility. They learn the difference between stuff and happiness. It is no bad thing to be happy with less.
viego…perhaps you have missed that i am adressing the part that many others have and that wasnt OP related, and that was about having a car and being finacially responsible before having kids.pay attention to the ENTIRE thread
its funny that you are all knocking frannie…but how wise is it to be finacially ready before having kids? most of you are cussing her out and what not… but isnt there some validity to that?
Nobody’s disagreeing that financial stability is nice and is a good idea for the support of chilluns. Frannie’s just kind of a total freak and is taking the idea to extremes. Kind of a Sarah Palin Online™. That’s all.Miles, will Larry Flynt be there photographing your son and Frannie’s daughter while they whip up a litter of your grandchildren doggy-style? It seems pretty appropriate. Also will Frannie Jr. have another young (or old) gentleman kneeling in front of her, to put it delicately, during the process?
“but how wise is it to be finacially ready before having kids? most of you are cussing her out and what not… but isnt there some validity to that?”…Of course there’s validity to that. The Jerry Springer Show and Maury is a damn good example of why people should not have children if not financially secure. You look at starving children in Africa in other parts of the world, and you wonder why they continue to have children they cannot feed. But that is not what she is saying.What Frannie is saying, is that being “financially secure” is having enough money to afford a car. That’s why people are “knocking on her”, there is no logic to her statements.You’re putting ideal’s into her mouth that she hasn’t projected herself, and you act like it’s funny how we’re disagreeing with her…
She’s also saying some crazy shit about mothers and how the way they dress indicates how much money they might have. The whole bit about cars before babies spoke for itself 200 posts ago, I mean, she claims on the internet to do fuck all for her self-esteem except denigrate other women on at least five levels. She also likes to throw the “W” word around in a derogatory fashion so she’s proven that, in addition to all that she wants her identity to represent, she’s also a lil’ bit racist, so she’s not looking to win any popularity contests, obviously. Don’t you be co-signing, The Homie, she thinks you’re poor too, keep in mind, she relies heavily on visuals.Sorry to jump in but this is getting on my nerves now.
Um, the reason the women in some African cultures, quite often have so many children that they can’t feed is because they are not allowed to refuse sex with their husbands in their culture or are not allowed to use birthcontrol. There is also mass-rape.
shhh shhh lilac, one tangent at a time now :)don’t mind the homie…he’s doing what he always does- banding together in a little group of trolls in an attempt to raid the regulars-castle. I’m guessing they wouldn’t let Qwerty cross the bridge they scheme under or something, that’s why she’s not around. he may believe what she says, he may not, doesn’t matter- he will shove as many words into her mouth as neccessary in an attempt to make her seem less totally crazy, then laugh at all of us ‘narrow minded’ folk who refuse to let newbs play in our hypocritcal sandbox. essentially, she is the cat shit found in that sandbox, and he is the jerky kid who tries to convince everyone it’s a chocolate bar after he’s accidentally taken a bite. and thanks miranda. tear 🙂
Anyone else notice that Homie and Frannie have the same problem of always retreating to the same talking point and insisting that nobody is listening or understanding them no matter how clearly, frequently or emphatically the people they are talking to tell them that they are not disagreeing with that particular point?
Are you bored at work, Miles? Taking a little bear-poking break? ;-P
ummm…..maybe.
Weird, dude. Your comment shows up in the side bar, but not in the actual thread.
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Stroller On The Bus is #4. Who could have seen that coming? Salt the driveway is still #1.