you know what really pisses me off,non smokers dictating the way i should lead and live my life.here’s a thought for all today.as a smoker,i pay one fuck of a lot more taxes than a non smoker,there fore my health dollars help you out more than myself.
big deal that i smoke,when i die,you non smokers will still reap the benifits of my taxes that i paid in,to be able to use the machinery that my smoke taxes went for.
and add to that,smokers die sooner,so you nons will get more health care,draining a reserve,that you go to a hospital for a sniffle.sure you will live longer,but you will use more services while being so.
and here’s another thought,the government wants to crack down on illegal smokes,here’s a clue kelly and all other government know nothings,take the damn things you have now in custody,sell them at the booze stores for 25 bucks a bag.it’s a win win thing here.you stop the criminals from profiting,you stop younger kids from buying them,you give the smoking voters cheaper cigs,and you make a bundle of cash for your governments.split the ammount charged with the government,and booze stores.that way,you will make 12.50 each on the deal,vs. the zip you get from this crime bullshit you always spout off about.and by the way,a pound of crack would take up less space,and be more cost effective,than a pound of smokes.anyone can do the math.SMOKERS UNITE NOW,OR WE LET THE NONS CONTROL YOUR FUCKING LIVES.
—LIFE SUCKS
This article appears in Jul 30 – Aug 5, 2009.
Yeah but if they put smokes in the booze stores then kids won’t be able to go in. LOL. What a bunch of moronic laws.
Raise the taxes and what happens, a flood of cheap illegal smokes. Way to use common sense there government.
Kinda related: but what pisses me off is that you can buy some cancer sticks anywhere anytime but buying a 6-pack of beer after 5 PM on a sunday is unheard of…. atleast the beer kills us slower…
oooo here’s a real pet peeve of mine. Crime Stoppers hits the television only periodically because it costs so much to put their message out there. Right now there’s a “stop illegal tobacco” commercial on the airwaves. In all the years you’ve watched television have any of you, even once, been encouraged to turn in your local crack dealer or report gang activity? No. I didn’t think so.
If they were trying to reduce crime before, we’re onto them now. This is all about lining the pockets of politicians and has fuck all to do with keeping you or your community safe.
ustwess “atleast the beer kills us slower…”
slower than what? A drunk driver?
Slower than smokes you bitch, it was a valid point, I didnt read anything about drinking and driving in the post. Fuck your a moron…
*Although one could argue that you could potentially die from one big ol’ binge… But still…
Obviously someone’s never attended fatal vehicle crashes (they ain’t accidents) where alcohol has been involved, or a domestic where death or injury is involved.
I think he’s simply referring to a person enjoying the occasional brew. Not pounding back 24’s, beating his wife then driving to the LC for a few case… But then again, maybe I’m the one making assumptions…
Sounds like OP could use a drink to calm down a little.
Logic that selling beer in corner stores will increase drunk driving is very flawed. You dont see people cracking open that case of beer the moment they get in the car at the NSLC parking lot. What you DO see is people driving all the way to the cold beer store in dartmouth on a warm summer saturday evening after realizing the 8-pack they got for their bbq has run out and its only 9 PM – “no NSLC open, no where to get more booze, well I’ll just take a quick run over to the only place to get non-microbrewed beer thats open late in this city.. that is conveniently placed in the least residentail area of the city… I only had a few drinks – I can drive”… as opposed to in Quebec or NFLD where they can say “Oh shit ‘bye, I’m outta black-arse, Well I’ll just take a run next door der now to da corner store and grab me a dozen beer”…. anyone see my point here?
Lol @ustwess. I love your post…I grew up in NFLD and found it quite odd that you couldn’t get beer in corner stores here or in NB…or in PEI or…anywhere except Quebec!
For a second there ustwess I thought you were directing that to me, I was gonna say I agree but then I read on… good retailiation!
“as a smoker,i pay one fuck of a lot more taxes than a non smoker”
That’s a completely ridiculous statement. Maybe I buy way more gas, or booze than you do. Maybe I shop in general you do. In that case I’d be paying one fuck of a lot more taxes than you. Just because you regularly buy a heavily taxed item doesn’t mean you pay more taxes than I do.
And here’s a tip for you, Life Sucks – after you hit the period key, hit the space bar. Just. Like. That.
Oh, and quit smoking. Then you won’t have to worry about paying all those ridiculous taxes.
Smokers…don’t befriend them, don’t date them, and surely don’t marry them!
It’s no use Jennie, re: the space bar. As long as space bar users try to control the lives of non space bar users (or “nons,” if you prefer), you’ll have people like Life Sucks uniting against space bar fascists such as yourself.
shoechick – wanna go get some newfie fries and rum-noodles?
also, OP, you choose to “pay more tax” being a smoker. its not like the government is charging you extra income tax or related. your argument about paying more tax is empty.
Also, if I make more money than you, I probably pay more taxes than you. I hate that argument. It’s right up there with telling a cop you pay their salary.
Life Sucks, if your heart suddenly explodes from smoking too much then you might be less of a burden on the health care system. It rarely works that way.
The reality is, should you acquire a terminal disease as a direct result of smoking, your cost of healthcare will be far greater than any taxes you have paid over the term of your smoking career.
I’m so glad I quit smoking almost one year ago. I’m less angry. And bitter. And smoking doesn’t control my every thought. Feels nice.
I don’t have any friends who smoke, but this guy sounds like a real winner, want to be friends?
good idea….too bad people who run our gov’t couldn’t use some brain power.
Where can you buy these bagged cigarettes?
I’ve seen a few people have bad reactions to whatever foreign subtances were added to the cheap cigs. Skin rashes to one fellow who’s throat became so irritated that he has trouble breathing after 2 of these smokes. Nobody knows what “fillers” are put into these cheap cigs.
NGF, let’s go! Always up for Newfie fries! Though, I have to admit, I have no clue what rum-noodles are lol.
Gotta warn ya, though…I am a smoker.
So I have to hold your smokes if you have no pockets/purse? lol
Rum-noodles; heard Willy mention them on the Simpson’s and it sounded like something the folks in NFLD would eat (rum…with noodles). I’m from CB originally so it’d be similar.
to anyone who missed the point.take smokes out of regular stores and sell only thru liquer outlets.kids can’t buy them then.so called organized crime loses lots of sales,and the government get more tax money,selling the bagged smokes.most,but not all store owners would do away with them in a second.but it is reason people go there,and then they buy other stuff.there are good points made here,and also bad points.i’m just saying that if people what to smoke,fine,do so.but they should be able to buy the bagged ones if that is their choice.reserve stores sell them,are they illegal there,or is it just off reserve.put the facts out government.do for all not some,or one group.jennie,i don’t know what your problem is,but please chill the fuck out,okay.don’t blow a gasket honey.and maybe smokers don’t want to be with whiney bitch non smokers either.
2 smokes, let’s go!
Smokers smell gross.
That’s pretty much all I have to contribute to this discussion….
“and add to that,smokers die sooner,so you nons will get more health care,draining a reserve,that you go to a hospital for a sniffle.sure you will live longer,but you will use more services while being so.”
I have to use more health care BECAUSE of smokers. Everytime I walk past one of you and get a mouth full of smoke, I need to use an asthma puffer. So if you weren’t around, I wouldn’t need the puff half as much and therefore wouldn’t use up so much of the system.
I’m not a whiney bitch, Life Sucks. Not at all.
I’m just an average gal who happens to understand basic grammar and sentence structure. I know that each new sentence begins with a capital letter, and at the end of that sentence comes a period, followed by a space.
Perhaps it’s easier for me because I don’t have all that tar and toxins running through my bloodstream. Maybe it’s because I chose to spend my money on university degrees, rather than cancer sticks. Who knows.
I dare say cirrhosis of the liver kills about as fast as lung cancer, ya fuckwit, Logic. Why so fucking crass, anyway? You don’t really need to practice the asshole thing here. You’re all ready an expert!
Jennie, “Just because you regularly buy a heavily taxed item doesn’t mean you pay more taxes than I do”
It sure does! Do the math, kiddo.
expatriot, “Smokers…don’t befriend them, don’t date them, and surely don’t marry them!”… so you’d agree with these statements:
“Faggots…don’t befriend them, don’t date them, and surely don’t marry them!”
“Paki’s…don’t befriend them, don’t date them, and surely don’t marry them!”
Shall I go in or are you getting my point? You’re an idiot.
Fat, is there anyone you’re not trying to fuck on this board? I got flamed for that while chatting with Desi, my HUSBAND, here. Fuck off now, would ya?
Jennie, tell us about a “comma splice” while you’re at it *genuine eyeroll*
Smokers can be run down by drunk drivers or derailing trains or what have you just as easily as YOU can.
I want to know who invited the government to decide what Canadians should do with their lives. And who the fuck asked any of you? Certainly not us smokers. Piss off. Mind your own business. Go get better blinds if what your neighbour is doing pisses you off and THEN go mind your own business. That goes for government too.
BTW, you can buy a bag of smokes from any reserve store that will serve your white face. Keep your cash register receipt and tell the cops to spend their time tracking down crack dealers and guns… making a difference
Nah, Fat, I have no problem carrying a purse lol.
Tsk tsk, though…Willy is Scottish…mainly Irish in Newfie, and I thought the same was true with CB? 😉
Kay, fuck off. By being friendly, Fat wants to fuck me?? You’re twisted.
Kay, the OP might pay more taxes on cigarettes than I do (I don’t pay any, since I’m not stupid enough to smoke) but that doesn’t mean I don’t pay way more taxes on other items. Maybe I have a huge income and I shop like crazy. I buy all kinds of big ticket items like cars, electronics, appliances. I mansion hop every couple of years. I go out to eat every night. Etc. etc. etc. In that case, I’d be paying way more tax than the broke smoker.
Oh, and I’m not pretending to be some grammar genius, but like I said, I get the basics.
I’ve really tried to stay away from these ‘smokers vs. non’ bitches and comments, but seriously.
Jennie, you’re comments are quite intelligent, well thought out and grammatically correct 😉 But, I’m sick of being called stupid because I have a habit, albeit a bad one (‘I’m not stupid enough to smoke’).
I KNOW how bad smoking is and I know the health risks. I also know how harmful second hand smoke is. However, as the product of a dual-smoker household, I am also a considerate smoker. I stay away from crowds when smoking, I refuse to smoke if children are around and I won’t smoke in a ‘smoking’ car if there is a non smoker in it (this included my own car, when I had one).
I agree with Kay. The government needs to fuck off and stop telling people how to live their lives. Smokers have been turned into pariahs of society and everyone seems intent on making us feel ashamed of smoking.
While I tend to simply tune out things like the OP’s post, I can empathize. I get enough flack from non smoking loved ones and do not need the same shit from complete strangers. I’m trying to live my own life, bad habits and all. Mind your own business!!
Fair enough, Shoe Chick. Perhaps I shouldn’t have been so harsh. I know a few smokers, and they’re not stupid. But it is a stupid habit.
My apologies if I offended.
Oh and Kay? “Already” is one word.
*Genuine eyeroll*
It IS a stupid habit, I agree! It’s also a hard one to extinguish.
Apology accepted. Cheers!
I agree, it is annoying that life sucks’ posts end up with random fake web addresses in them because of the lack of space bar, it’s really not that hard to add another key stroke in there.
Most people couldn’t care less if you smoke and keep your habits contained. What makes people mad is when you affect their lives with your habit. Or when you smoke around them, which in effect is forcing them to smoke as well. If I work with you and you are taking 10 extra breaks a day to smoke, I’ll probably resent you for the habit, because it affects me. Same with the smell. If I decide to not shower at home and smell, no one can say anything, but as soon as I force others to endure the smell of my bad heigiene habits, they have the right to complain about it.
It also affects the general public when the smokers who know better are out there encouraging young people who SHOULD know better, but obviously don’t, to start smoking. This is irresponsible and you are condemning those kids to a poor lifestyle.
I agree with PAS, and will add in response to the “the government needs to mind it’s own business and stop telling me what to do” line. The government’s job is to collect taxes to pay for the thing YOU (and everyone else) uses. By taxing an item, they are not telling you not to buy it, they are counting on the fact that you are going to buy it. From the revenue collection point of view, taxes on cigarettes support smokers. Another job of the government is to educate people about the health risks of smoking, so they do that too. You are completely free to smoke until your lungs turn black and thanks to the government and it’s tax collection, you are aware of the risks and you receive treatment for any diseases you might develop because of your habit. Where, in any of that, does the government tell you you CAN’T smoke?
If taxes are the government’s way of saying don’t buy something, then they must not want us to buy anything since everything is taxed.
“I have a huge income and I shop like crazy. I buy all kinds of big ticket items like cars, electronics, appliances. I mansion hop every couple of years. I go out to eat every night. Etc. etc. etc.”… and I smoke my face off loving every minute of it. Piss off, Jennie. Stay in school. Go talk to your English teacher about the word “all” and then about the word “ready” and then about the word “already”. You’re in for a history lesson. Have fun. Then come back and tell us what you know about nit-picking. We’re just dying for it. Educate us, wee one. Give it your best shot. *yawn*
PAS, I argue if I smell bad you can walk on the other side of the road with your kids and keep minding your own business.
The tax point is still valid kay. People with higher incomes pay more in taxes…some of them will end up paying more in taxes than the smoker who likes to think their habit is single handedly funding the health care system. It’s a poor argument.
Who asked the gov’t to tax cigarettes so disproportionately, Miles? We pay a sales tax ON TOP of a luxury tax and THIS is how the gov’t tells us what to do, by punishing us.
“All ready” is a phrase meaning “completely prepared,” as in “As soon as I put my coat on, I’ll be all ready.” “Already,” however, is an adverb used to describe something that has happened before a certain time, as in “What do you mean you’d rather stay home? I’ve already got my coat on.”
In this case Kay, you were referring to something that happend before a certain time. So already would be correct here.
Miles, “smoker who likes to think their habit is single handedly funding the health care system”
If cigarette taxation is not bread and butter for gov’t/health care then why don’t we see Crime Stoppers commercials asking for our help getting guns off the street or crack dealers or meth houses or or or????
Since you’ve all ready got your coat on, Jennie, you’re completely prepared to leave. Please do so.
PAS, who’s encouraging young people to smoke? It’s a horrible habit, and I acknowledge that. I would never encourage anyone to smoke. Also, when I work, I take my scheduled breaks; an occasional extra one if it’s an incredibly stressful day. I will concede there are smokers, though, who take way too many during the run of their workday.
Miles, you got me with the tax. You’re right…we DO pay taxes on everything. And, with all the advertising on how bad smoking is for you, if someone who smokes (or starts smoking) claims they’re not aware of the health risks…well, I really don’t know how to describe how dumb they really are.
Kay, you’re right, too…we do pay a luxury tax on top of the sales tax. But ciggies aren’t the only thing that has a luxury tax.
Well that’s just the thing, isn’t is shoe_chick? Who invited the government to call smoking a luxury? We’ve been smoking since we invented fire.
Kay “Why so fucking crass, anyway? You don’t really need to practice the asshole thing here. You’re all ready an expert!”
You mean already?… And to answer why… boredom…
Touche Kay. But I will argue that smoking is not a necessity of human life (such as food, water & shelter), so in that sense, it is a luxury, regardless of how long we’ve been doing it.
And, if there was no luxury tax on said items, that would mean a higher sales tax to make up the difference.
They’ve so got you snowed, shoe_chick. Hamburgers and pizza aren’t a necessity either and neither are iPods, sunglasses, designer jeans nor snappy shoes yet they’re all subject to simple sales tax and not considered a luxury. I think the intention of luxury tax was to collect from those who MUST have so much as a result of purchasing yachts, diamonds, Ferrari’s, revenue property and other BIG ticket items. A $5 pack of smokes is FAR from a big ticket item and smoking does not place you in the class of the rich (unless you’re doing it on your yacht) so what entitles the gov’t to call it a luxury? Who’s idea was this anyway? Surely an EX smoker who favors such discrimination.
As for making up the difference… did you see what they paid the LOSERS to leave office? $50k/yr pension… let’s start there.
Kay, you asked who asked the Gov’t to disproportionately tax cigarettes? The people did. The majority of people don’t want their kids to smoke, don’t want to pay higher taxes on all goods and services and don’t want people smoking around them in public places. In response, the government taxes cigarettes as a disincentive to young smokers (and older ones too) and to generate much needed revenue without raising taxes on everything. If enough people complained, then you would see the tax gone. Smokers have very little political voice now so they get the shit end of the stick. Even the mighty tobacco companies have lost most of their political clout. When everyone stops smoking, the government will find another unpopular vice to tax and make up for the lost revenue.
Also, I believe that the tax revenue generated from cigarettes is not earmarked for specific purposes, save a small percentage that goes into anti-smoking campaigns. Therefore, a smoker cannot argue legitimately that they are contributing more to healthcare than anyone else. In fact, even with higher taxes on cigs, the revenue generated does not account for the financial drain smokers cause. So, in the end non smokers are still picking up the financial slack for your bad habits.
“PAS, I argue if I smell bad you can walk on the other side of the road with your kids and keep minding your own business.”
Not always possible, if it were possible that you could go into public stinky without bothering anyone, than go for it, but it’s not an easy task, because being in public means to be around other people.
Shoe_Chick , anyone who smokes around other people could be unknowingly influencing young people to smoke. Kids are very impressionable, if a group of kids see a group of adults laughing and smoking, odds are that at least one kid is going to think that smoking is cool because those people look cool. Same with parents who smoke, kids look up to their parents and want to be like them.
Miles, You’ve described the democratic process beautifully. Please qualify this, “In fact, even with higher taxes on cigs, the revenue generated does not account for the financial drain smokers cause.”
New young leadership will inevitably take hold of this issue (check out our own young Bitch’s liberal opinions) and put government back in its place. Leave it to a church or what have you to make smoking a moral wrong. I think it belongs in the realm of tattooing or piercing ones self… a right to personal expression, identity and all that comes with the human experience (addiction).
You’re right, I don’t want my kids to smoke cigarettes and I don’t want them becoming alcoholics either. I’m happy to spend tax dollars on educating the public. I agree we should provide only limited access (age of majority) and exposure (advertising of potentially harmful products) to serve community youth but where do we draw the lines and for whom? Targeting children with advertising Pepsi and McD’s is also potentially harmful should the individual become obsessed/addicted. I argue that’s my choice. I’m not going to kill myself or you with a thousand packs of cigarettes just like a thousand glasses of wine is my choice to consume, and rightfully so. No need to discriminate so as to do the thinking for me.
Sorry to be long-winded. There are a few political issues that I allow under my skin. This is one of them.
*shakes head* oooooh Fat.
*sigh*
Haven’t tried to fuck PK either but I’ve attempted to give her a Wet Willy once or twice.
*cry*
Do you know how dejected that makes me feel, Fat?
Kayjected or Rejected?
Hey PAS, keep this in mind as you walk your kids past restaurants especially the ones with patio’s and liquor licenses:
…anyone who [drinks beer] around other people could be unknowingly influencing young people to [drink]. Kids are very impressionable, if a group of kids see a group of adults laughing and [drinking], odds are that at least one kid is going to think that [drinking] is cool because those people look cool. Same with parents who [drink], kids look up to their parents and want to be like them.
So, you think all people should behave as upstanding parents in all pubic areas, as in, outside of their private property? Hmmm I wonder what Fat makes of that?
Kayjected, Fat, which is worse than being rejected.
I cry myself to sleep every night, asshole.
Believe it or not, kay, that was going to be my response to PAS…I agree. A parent needs to educate their kids about things they see outside the home.
And maybe I am snowed, kay. However, as Miles stated, smokers no longer have a political voice; no one’s willing to support smokers because we’re pariahs. And again, as Miles stated, tobacco companies no longer have even half the clout they used to. No one wants to be associated with tobacco companies.
Perhaps said tobacco companies should get together and open their own stores. I realize the government would still be in control of pricing, however, it’s similar to having liquor stores; they sell alcohol-that’s it, that’s all.
NGF, sorry love, I’m happily involved 😉 But I will drink most things, though I actually can’t stand Screech lol.
Hahaha, SC, I don’t know how ANYBODY can drink Screech!
What about home made swish or shine?
Sure, you can replace cigarettes with anything, beer, celery, stupid people.
One main difference being that 9/10 the person smoking would tell the kid that it’s a terrible plan and never to start, while drinking is something kids are basically expected to one day participate in.
The other main difference? That even if you only smoke responsibly, you are ruining your health in a major way. While I’m in no way saying that people aren’t killed/injured due to alcohol related incidents, the results of smoking are ALWAYS detrimental to your health. Cigarettes are also highly addictive, which is the biggest problem for most smokers.
I am so with you!
thumbs up to a smoker 🙂
It depends who you ask, PAS. Ask an alcoholic if choosing to ‘try’ drinking is a good idea and they’ll likely tell you no. (Choose a homeless one and you’ll get an ear full.) The out-of-control, losing gambler would likely think it’s their right to play and win again while at the same time advise their children to never begin. Take away the public’s right to eat a Big Mac by adding a “disincentive” tax (in the name of, what?, healthcare? like it’s okay to do to smokers?) and then what do you have that’s different from a DICTATORSHIP? The disincentive may not be death or imprisonment as has been doled out in other nations but it is imposing nonetheless.
Is a tax on your lifestyle and every choice you make why we have gov’t in this “mosaic” of a nation? I want a government, not a parent, not a priest. Don’t you?
KAY: you asked me to qualify this: “in fact, even with higher taxes on cigs, the revenue generated does not account for the financial drain smokers cause”
I can’t find the exact link I saw before, but this info from Saskatchewan says pretty much the same thing.
http://www.cpha.ca/en/about/provincial-ass…
“Tobacco is an economic burden as well as a health burden. The total impact of tobacco use to Saskatchewan residents is conservatively estimated at $264.8 million per year in 1997 dollars. In contrast, the province of Saskatchewan collected $116.8 million from tobacco tax and another $23.8 million in sales tax from tobacco products in 1997. It is important to recognize revenues generated by tobacco are lower than the economic burden to the province. National figures are similar. Also, tax revenues go to general revenue and are not targeted to any specific program”
I also have a link that I just read. It’s regarding the huge illegal smokes bust in London, ON.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/08/…
” “The illicit tobacco market is a burden to all Canadians,” said RCMP Insp. Dwight Blok.
“It directly decreases government revenue for health and social programs by hundreds of millions of dollars annually.”
This RCMP Insp. states that the tax revenue from cigarette sales goes to health and social programs. Of course, I’m taking this at face value; he’s a cop, not a gov’t official who dictates where the taxes go. I merely found it interesting, considering this debate.
Comparing alcohol and cigarettes is not comparing apples and apples.
I like to have a glass of wine on a Friday night, or a couple cold beers on a hot day. However, I might have 1-2 drinks per week. Many weeks I have none. I don’t know many (actually, any) smokers who might have a smoke this week, and then not again for three weeks. The people I know who smoke do so every single day.
Obviously there are plenty of people who have a problem and abuse alcohol. There’s no doubt about it. But the vast majority of the adults I know use alcohol responsibly. The smokers I know are addicted.
That’s why I find it less troublesome for children to wwalk past a patio where people are drinking – provided the drinkers aren’t obviously intoxicated – than to be exposed to a group of smokers. I can talk to my children about using alcohol responsibly, but as far as I’m concerned, there is no way to use cigarettes responsibly.
Shoe_Chick: “goes to health and social programs” is true. Part of it does. It also goes to everything else. I’m not saying cig money doesn’t go to healthcare just pointing out that the point of the tax is NOT to compensate for the costs of smokers to society. It is just a revenue generator.
Also Shoe: The line about the loss of revenue assumes that the cigarettes ceased would have been bought legally otherwise. If the deterrent effect of the tax was working, those smokes would not be bought legally and the government shouldn’t count them as “lost revenue”.
There comes a tipping point, which I think was reached in the 90’s as well, where too much tax increases illegal trade and decreases the deterrent effect. The gov’t just needs to find and maintain that sweet spot where smokes are just expensive enough to keep some people from smoking but not so expensive that people are willing to break the law to get cheap smokes.
Miles, “the loss of revenue assumes that the cigarettes [seized] would have been bought legally otherwise”
GREAT POINT!!! The tobacco is destined (or from) Indian reserves to be sold by legal means which DOES NOT impose a tax. Therefore the sum used to describe seized tobacco means NOTHING in terms of lost revenue for you AND for our lofty gov’t. Buy these babies at the native reserve you pay zero tax, just like them and it’s a legal purchase (assuming they’ll sell to your white face, and that’s their prerogative).
But you go on to say, “The gov’t just needs to find and maintain that sweet spot where smokes are just expensive enough to keep some people from smoking”
I say the government can FUCK OFF and leave it to my parents or to my church to DICTATE moral wrongs to me.
The news of the big bust is just sad news, as far as I’m concerned. Long live the illegal tobacco dealer!
Question Miles… what about the uncounted number of smokers that never cost the health care system ANYTHING? Does their experience get counted as a credit to the statistic you quoted? I thought not. The statement can’t be qualified. Nor can the numbers mean anything conclusion-worthy unless the smokers without incident are also counted and on a national level. Make the sample size small enough and you can imagine almost any statistic to backup any point. (go figure you quote stats from SK, the smallest per capita province, or close to it)
kay, you are incredibly more intense about this than I’ll ever be!
Miles, you make great points and are quite eloquent. I also agree with you that the gov’t shouldn’t ‘bank’ on cigarette tax revenue and should find that ‘sweet spot’.
kay, after my father’s recent heart attack (and he IS a smoker), the cardiologist broke down some statistics for him:
Major salt decrease-20% reduction of artery blockage.
Fat decrease, about the same.
Quitting smoking-50%.
Those are stats you can’t argue with. I know, I know; you’re discussing the gov’t taxation, NOT the health risks. Luckily, dear ole Dad hasn’t smoked since the day he had the chest pains. And my family are working towards quitting. It’s just unfortunate that none of us were willing to do so until this happened.
shoe_chick, explain why my grandfather has never had a cardio nor respiratory “event”, he’s near 100, and smokes at least 1.5 packs a day.
To each his own, right? Besides, last I heard, smoking cigarettes does not create plaque in the arteries as is necessary for a heart attack or arterial blockage to occur.
Yes, I get pretty intense where my FREEDOM and yours are concerned.
If you were gay and the government told you same sex marriage was wrong, illegal or just grossly taxed to provide “disincentive” I think you’d get your head around what goes on in that political community. Such a position imposes on your FREEDOM too.
If you enjoyed doughnuts and the gov’t told you doughnuts were bad for you therefore illegal or heavily taxed I think then you’d wake up to what FREEDOM is. Perhaps, you’d even get a little excited about the democratic majority forming a DICTATORSHIP right under your nose. Hitler thought the disabled should be killed so as not to pollute the gene pool, and subsequently cost for their care… all in the name of what what good for Germans and their country so think twice if you think what our government playing mother and priest is actually “good” for you.
please pardon my typos in that last post. I’m sure you get the point
Please, please, PLEASE – don’t anyone take Kay’s homophobic bait…
kay: Yes, the smokers who do not use health care get counted in that they are not counted in the economic drain portion of that calculation. They also get counted in the revenue generating portion of that equation. So, over all, when you finish the calculations smokers cost more than they generate. Note as well that the quote says national statistics are similar.
Kay says: “Shoe_chick, explain why my grandfather has never had a cardio nor respiratory “event”, he’s near 100, and smokes at least 1.5 packs a day.”
and: “Make the sample size small enough and you can imagine almost any statistic to backup any point. “
So, with a sample size of 1, you are concluding what Kay?
Exactly, Miles…a sample size of 1 concludes nothing, except the man is lucky. There are more who do get health issues from smoking than those who don’t. I also have a grandmother who died as a result of organ failure from a stroke-also caused by her 2 pack a day habit.
Kay, I know what freedom is…don’t even start the gay card, you know from previous posts I have a lesbian sister. I will not get into that back & forth with you again.
“with a sample size of 1…” Thank you, Miles. That was exactly my point earlier.
“There are more who do get health issues from smoking than those who don’t”… just how does one qualify that statement? And let`s get the second hand smoke casualties out of the way before we count again.
You know, I’m really just being obtuse but my cause is sincere and that’s the right to choose. We could pull stats from almost every behavior and find deep-sea fishing or promiscuous sex to be the most dangerous things a person could do with their freedom… but I guess we have to talk about the all-mighty dollar since cost is what governs the difference between right and wrong…???
Has it ever occurred to you knowledge and resources in this world should be shared for the betterment of mankind? Perhaps it’s communistic thinking but therapies and research dollars for it should not be subject to a capitalist market. We go so far as centralized health care…
That`s the last time I make a statement in favour of gay marriage on this board. I can`t believe your negative retorts! You act as cattle.
Kay, I won’t argue against your right to choose to smoke or not. But in a democratic society, the majority can dictate government policy. Nowhere is it indicated that smoking is a fundamental human right. It is not a charter right. The government is not acting unlawfully or unethically by passing laws that tax cigarettes or even outright banning them. That is not a freedom issue. As I said before, smoking is unpopular and the government can exploit that unpopularity for tax revenue without significant complaint from their constituents. Smokers will just have to suck it up or take to the streets.
Out of curiosity Kay, do you think you should be “free” to smoke crack or shoot heroin? I know they are not the same as cigarettes, but the underlying principle about freedom is the same I think.
No one is taking away for freedom. No one is stopping you from smoking. People will always bitch about smokers and their second hand smoke blah blah get over it. If you and everyone else quit smoking today those people who bitched about it would find something else that you’re doing to bitch about.
Can crack or cocaine kill you in one fell swoop? Yes. But so can drain cleaner or hooping a bottle of rye. Does using crack or shooting heroin allow you to continue being a productive member of society? No, not for long. Is crack or cocaine usually used as a recreational drug? No, it forms near-instant dependency we would say is consistent with mental disease or psychosis. I think we agree there’s not a single coke junkie out there who is not all ready or well on their way to becoming a grand thief… the scourge of society. One cannot say all these things about tobacco, booze or even pot but we all know how the stats run in those circles.
virgomom, “No one is stopping [me] from smoking…” but the deterrent may make it impossible since “deterrents” are generally effective, you agree. Who’s not stopping me? Who is profiting from my behavior/lifestyle and is that the intended purpose of government? I’d argue that’s the job of a capitalist market, not government.
Take a step back and realize Hilter’s Germany had policy governing the behavior of it’s citizens “for their own good”.
Wearing perfume can irritate migraine sufferers, induce vomiting in the pregnant and aggravate allergies and other sensitivities. If your government imposed a heavy tax as a disincentive to buying perfume would you then realize this is YOUR freedom we’re talking about? Maybe it’s really up to parents, churches and other council to teach respect for thy neighbour and thy self and NOT the government’s job.
I ended up in a lively debate after watching Jamie Fox and Robert Downey Jr in The Soloist. We know the guy would benefit from accurate diagnosis and some drug cocktail created in response to schizophrenia but the guy refused to be subject to examination. In this country and the US, that’s his right. We know better what’s good for him (and he would too if he could think straight) but from this perspective it’s unethical to impose treatment.
How is your government providing disincentives for what the majority considers to be unhealthy behavior not the same kind of imposition?
What’s the matter, Fat? Did I just call you a thief? Please define the difference between “vice” and “addiction”.
Fat, did you notice I wanted to agree with you?… except you wrote all the stupid shit about me (again, PLEASE get over me)
There’s a HUGE difference between vice and addiction and it can usually be summed up into how many doses before psychosis and death ensues.
I’m all for legalizing pot in case you didn’t catch that while the cunt was raging… you’re a real piece of work sometimes.
That’s sort of the response I was thinking you would have Kay. I pretty much agree with it too. I don’t think Cigarettes, pot or alcohol should be illegal, bu I do think they should be controlled and there should be education about the risks involved with their use.
The point of bringing up crack and heroin is that you agree there are some things that society can (and maybe should) make illegal because of the harm they pose to individuals and to society in general. So, society/government has the right to deny and individual “freedom” in the interest of the good of society. Smoking (and alcohol and weed) happen to be the drugs that land right in the grey area between banning things that are obviously damaging and maintaining someone’s right to choose what they put in their body.
It’s a rock and a hard place in a black and white world when you discard experience and history. The day smoking cigarettes turns one into a thief I’d get on the band wagon to outlaw tobacco too but government disincentive raising the price is a false/manufactured symptom leading to the illegal tobacco crap.
You and I seem to meet on more than one subject, Miles. Thank you for not succumbing to cattle-like behavior like some of the other bitches here
Fat said, “I’ve never heard of crack/blow creating a dependency like marijuana or even ice tea.”
hey Fat, i’m not sure if you’re saying that marijuana is more OR less addictive/habit-forming than crack?
pure cannabinoids (from organically grown marijuana that is free of chemical toxins) do NOT cause *physical* addiction. whereas many other psychotropic drugs (narcotics, opioids, alcohol, etc) DO cause addiction (and overdose).
cannabis plants are among the least addictive and most harmless natural substances known to man. it’s practically impossible to overdose on marijuana (i’ve never even read/heard about anyone OD’ing on pot). sure, a *habitual* pot smoker can become ornery/cranky for a few days after the psychological withdrawel, but pot never causes the debilitating physical addiction & withdrawel symptoms that harder drugs do, like alcohol, heroin, crack, etc.
in fact, even the medical community is (finally) beginning to wake up to the fact that marijuana has significant medicinal properties, particularly in the area of chronic pain management, appetite stimulant for cancer patients and the terminally ill, anxiety/social disorders… and many other medical uses. but like most things in life, ‘moderation’ is the key.
and that reminds me – i recently met a young man (19 years old) who was in a serious car accident, he was ejected from the vehicle and became paralyzed from the waste down. the doctors told him that he would probably be a paraplegic for the rest of his life, and wanted to prescribe highly addictive drugs like Dilaudid and so on to manage his pain (as per the protocols set out by the pharmaceutical industry). fortunately, this young man had the presence of mind to refuse the hard drugs and told the doctors that he would use marijuana instead – they objected of course and even threatened to report him to the police for using an ‘illegal’ substance… fucking retards – so he is forced to conceal his pot use from the medical staff. but here’s the kicker… not only has the pot managed his pain, but it has helped him to deal (psychologically) with the trauma of the accident, so that he is able to get out and socialize with friends, AND he is now able to WALK with the aid of a mobility walker. granted, he has difficulty, but he is convinced that the pot has helped (not hindered) him in his recovery. remember, the doctors said he wouldn’t walk again, yet less than a year later, he is able to get around on his own. i admire his courage for defying the utter stupidity of marijuana prohibition, and am inspired by his conviction to walk agin.
techcafe and kay connect.. go figure.
I heard a story and I’d like to see formal study of marijane increase to either substantiate it or prove it false. The story says animals (not insects) will NOT usually chew on a pot plant but if the animal is injured it will seek it out. I’ve also heard when pot seed (very low THC) is mixed with chicken feed the chickens actually eat the pot seeds first… that nutrition is something serious to consider in cultivating pot.
@kay – hmm, i thought you were an anti-pot nazi, judging by some of your previous posts.
in any case, yeah you’re right, formal studies into the medical benefits of cannabis are most definitely warranted – but are currently being thwarted by other groups who are not just ideologically opposed to marijuana use, but also by those who have a $vested$ interests in maintaining marijuana prohibition (pharmaceutical giants, alcohol industry, law enforcement, prison industrial complex, drug enforcement, you name it).
and yes, cannabis (oil) is also nutritious (loaded with omega 3 & 6 fatty acids), not to mention the myriad of other uses, like clothing and other products that can be made from hemp (as we did less than 100 years ago, before prohibition came along). it can even be used as a bio-friendly fuel, with much less waste than other types of biofuels, and grown on much smaller plots of land because of the higher yield.
the cannabis plant is a GIFT from nature – 100% natural and medically beneficial – but we’ve been brainwashed and indoctrinated over the past 50 years or so into believing the bullshit and lies being propogated by the ‘war on drugs’ nazis.
it should also be noted, marijuana is NOT a so-called ‘gateway drug’ – that claim is patently false. if anything, pot has the opposite effect – it can actually ease the transition/recovery from hard drugs.
It’s basically a miracle plant…
Yes, it surprises me too that Kay is liberal enough to support marijuana, yet so close-minded in her views on sexuality. It really makes no sense to me.
Canada is not opposed to using hemp for industrial or medical purposes.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/de…
http://medicalmarijuanacanada.com/
There is also good formal research being done on the medical uses of marijuana. Things take time. The doctors aren’t “retards” for prescribing non-pot pain killers. They are doing their jobs and being responsible. Most hospitals practice evidence-based medicine and there needs to be more evidence in support of pot before it can become standard practice to prescribe it in medicine. People are coming around to the benefits of hemp…just smoke a J and be patient.
Geeze Jennie, it’s not that I’m “closed minded”. I’m well-informed, have given it careful thought and I’ve made a decision for myself and my family, that’s all. I resent the outside imposition of opposing views onto my children but at the same time, pick your partner, I don’t care, it’s none of my business. Supporting the freedom to choose a lifestyle and embracing said lifestyle are often two different things. It’s not that I’m against gay marriage. I’m against the whole idea that one should require permission / pay for a permit/license to our government to do it let alone planting ideas in my kid’s heads about it that may not be consistent with my own teachings.
Great article Miles. I’ll read through the whole thing later but I’ll tell you some practical experience in Canada. You can obtain Canadian grown/manufactured hemp SEED products (ie Hempola Valley Farms in ON) but textile products are NOT produced in Canada. Gotta goto China for that. We have bamboo farms here that produce textile but not hemp farms. Ask why. Ask loudly and, like techcafe points out, Dow Corning and friends will have an answer for ya.
all good points, Miles… indeed, patience is a virtue.
however, in some cases, like that of the car accident victim that i mentioned… waiting for asinine prohibition laws to get repealed, and laying in a hospital bed all drugged up and stupid on highly addictive narcotics (like dilaudid, etc), wasn’t going to help this young man gather the strength he needed to endure the painful rehabilitation therapy, nor the will to get out and socialize with his friends. if not for the pot, he might not have walked again, just as his doctors told him.
sometimes, waiting for the medical community to catch up is not an option. i believe he made the right choice to defy his doctors, and the law.
I have a friend who smokes a lot of pot.
I think he’s addicted.
I don’t think the medical community has to catch up with pot, but pot has to catch up with medical standards. If the shit works, invest in the studies to prove it and get it into the hospitals using the same standards that pharmaceutical companies have to comply with (or better if we want to be cynical about big pharma).
I understand the frustration though and I’m glad your friend is recovering well.
Good one PK 🙂 I really have nothing to add. Going to leave it to Miles to wrap this one up.
I will say though, Fat, that its probably not such a good idea to go directly seeking anonymous people out on the internet…you never know who could wind up on the other end.
I’m sure he (PK’s friend) is not addicted to pot just as I’m not seeking out SC. I’m too busy gettin’ stoooooooooned, maaaan.
Ooops, did I just say that?
Oh – and i was saying pot’s a dependency drug vs. the addictive drugs like crack, coke and heroin. even chemicals like MDMA/E aren’t addictive but cause people to develop a “taste” for them b/c its a fun party drug.
Let me be the first to second that, Fat.
I’ll agree to agree with you on this, Kay. *nods*
wow.when i wrote this bitch,i didn’t think it would spawn this much angst to everyone.jesus h.christ people,be a little cival here will you.if you don’t agree with a poster,don’t go looking for a tree to lynch them,talk it out,like rational humans we are supposed to be.if i had known that it would go like this,a big fucken melee,i would never have even bothered to put it in.if you smoke fine,if you don’t,fine too.but how about giving the smokers some slack,and not be pissing in their coffee or whatever.we smokers abide by you and we aren’t out looking for trees yet.yes health care is suffering,not because of less smokes taxes,but due to misuse by our last idiot in office.i was only saying,that if a person wants to persue their habit(tho bad it may be,and i do smoke),that choice should be up to those that will.but i can also see the other side too,and second hand smoke,while it might be bad,is nothing,compared to all the other polluting crap,we all suck in every fucking day.gas fumes,shit,smokes,and how about buddy down the rod with that blasting fucking stereo in his little shit box car.should we have to listen to that too.point is,you are damned,one way or another,we were put on this earth to die,plain as that.we are not gods,nor are we angels,we are us.good or bad,we live our lives day to day,and take the shit other people put out there too,not just smoke.
Life Sucks, I’ll be honest, I only read the first couple sentences of your recent comment, and that’s what I want to comment on.
You say to be civil & if we don’t agree with someone’s opinion, to talk it out like rational humans.
I’ve noticed you comment on other threads. Haven’t you noticed this is what we do? Lol. We get one each other for their opinion and try to sway each other to our own opinion. We may vehemently disagree with another poster on one topic/thread and be in total sync with them on another. That’s part of the ‘fun’ of these forums.
Kay, making you pay more for something is in no way taking away your freedom. You are still perfectly free to buy cigarettes and smoke all you please. You’re mad because the government is upping the price, but the tobacco companies could make smokes $10 a pack and you’d still be free to buy them. Makes no difference. The government now makes you have a passport to travel to the USA, that isn’t taking away your freedom to leave the country, it just makes it slightly more difficult.
PAS, I wrote this earlier about disproportionate taxes on tobacco stepping on my freedom in THIS country…
“but the deterrent may make it impossible since ‘deterrents’ are generally effective, you agree. Who’s not stopping me? Who is profiting from my behavior/lifestyle and is that the intended purpose of government? I’d argue that’s the job of a capitalist market, not government.”
As for what the US does (not my country).. I don’t think your passport analogy, which addresses national security and boarder safety (which is something I think gov’t IS good for)… it’s just not relevant here.
Oh, and Fat… I think I missed your last post because I don’t agree. The drugs you listed should remain be highly controlled substances. Pot/Hemp, however, that’s another story all together and no I don’t think it should be taxed with anything more than a common sales tax levied on any commodity.
i’m a ardent non-smoker, cigarettes are disgusting to me (although i do smoke the righteous bc bud on occasion). but even i, as a non-smoker, think that the government has taken things way to far with the price of tobacco products. the cost of cigarettes has become so high (because of outrageous taxes) that our government has practically created an underground market in ‘illegal’ tobacco products. it’s greed on part of the government, simple as that.
yeah techcafe,and should be also guilty by association in some part,for making honest people deal with illegal smokes.makes no difference,whether you smoke or not,the point is unfair taxation.they had a big tea party down south a number of years back.oh,and here’s another tidbit,guns registry,this is almost as bad as the smoke tax.take them from responsible hunters and other shooting sports,and what do you have.criminals with guns only.there is just as much,if not more gun crime lately,even with the registry.so where is that working.you have to fill out a ton of bullshit paperwork to get a license,but do the crooks,nope,they just buy the saturday night specials from down south and bring them up here and resell them.go to just about any bar or tavern downtown,put word out that you want a piece.wait half hour,then buy and go.that fucken easy.i know of 5 places like that already.so we bitch about smokes,taxes,and everything else here,but know what,the real problem is still some type of crime.you can’t shit in this country,unless you step on someone’s toes about something.have at it people,i’m going to bed,to dream of grass,smoke,and murders to come.night,night all.
Tech, and others, the same thing happened back in the 90’s with high taxes too…it started out as a good deterrent, but the government got greedy and it led to a huge smuggling racket. It’s really dumb if the government didn’t learn from the mistakes it made only a decade ago.
Here’s a neat link with an obvious bias, but it’s a good summary of a lot of the things discussed on this thread:
http://www.nsra-adnf.ca/cms/index.cfm?grou…
thanks for the link, Miles…
the article on that site (Non-Smokers’ Rights Association) is very one-sided. the ‘testimony’ given by the author fully supports exorbitant taxes on tobacco products and he downplays the government’s role in helping to create a black market (due to the high taxes). his views are extremely biased, and he’s obviously a militant non-smoker.
now, i would never defend the tobacco industry, but i will defend a person’s right to enjoy a smoke in the privacy of their home or wherever the public doesn’t have to be subjected their nasty second-hand smoke.
don’t get me wrong, i can’t stand cigarettes, they’re disgusting and stink like hell – but what i hate even more than a stinky smoker, is a paternalistic/authoritarian government dictating what people are *allowed* to put into their *own* bodies.
if a person enjoys the occasional smoke, i see nothing wrong with that. just as some others might like to have a few drinks, or as for myself, sharing a big fat joint with a friend or two (bc bud of course).
the government needs to get out of the business of *controlling* our lives. in other words, it is MY LIFE, nobody elses… and so long as i am not harming someone else – then all you do-gooders & dictators back-off and stfu about it.
having said all that, obviously, children/teens should never be exposed to tobacco products… but as adults, all bets are off – MY autonomy and civil liberties trump all else.
Yeah, I posted that link for fun, not because I agree with the guy. I don’t usually like to associate myself with extremists. I find the more debate a topic generates, the more likely the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
After all this discussion, I guess I am not convinced that the government is being dictatorial or infringing on my civil liberties by taxing cigarettes, although I do think that the current tax rate is probably too high to be effective. I believe the government has an obligation to protect the people and to take steps to limiting the impact of one of the most preventable causes of illness in Canadians (smoking). Taxing tobacco, if done properly, can do that without a huge surge in black market activity. It does not, in my opinion, interfere with my charter rights. It’s perfectly fair, and quite important, to discuss and be aware of how and when the government may overstep its bounds, but I don’t think this is an example of that.
Whew…I think that’s all I can possibly say on the subject. Apologies all around for anyone bored to tears by this long-winded thread.