Thank you grade primary teacher, for deciding after six weeks of teaching my son that he should be “retained” (read: failed). So glad I found out it’s actually not your call to “retain”—but rather mine. So glad I did a little bit of research and found out the negative emotional impact of failing a student at that age far outweighs the academic benefit. Also so glad he’s had A’s and B’s in grade one now, and is moving happily into grade two. —Opinions are Like What?
This article appears in Jun 7-13, 2012.
They have A-F letter grades in grade one now?
“I don’t think they should have “grades” or even “correct answers” in school. I think we should have “impressions” and, if my impression is different from yours, so what? Can’t we all be brothers?” – liberally stolen from Jack Handy
doesn’t matter if he doesn’t hand in that monet inspired fingerpainting..
he won’t get a zero.
I’m not sure how you can fail a kid that has nap time in the curriculum.
primary is kindergarten, i don’t remember any marks
Schooling – and even worse, teachers – continue to “fail” students and parents alike.
I’d give the teacher an additional grade should s/he be able to spell; an accomplishment that seems to be lacking in university students over the last 20 years…
ACADEMIC BENEFIT IN PRIMARY SCHOOL?
“So glad I did a little research and found out the negative emotional impact of failing a student at that age far outweighs the academic benefit.”
Of just what, exactly, does the “academic benefit” of primary school consist? Such academic benefit presupposes that academic “subjects” are studied in primary. What, exactly, would these be? Could the primary teacher specify exactly just how one might fail them if they do indeed exist? Have you brought this up with the school principal? The school board? The Department of Education? How is it possible that your child did well in Grade One yet was failed by a particular primary school teacher? And what particular piece of “research” demonstrated that the emotional impact of failure far outweighed the so-called academic benefit? Isn’t this obvious from commnon sense? Who were the authors of the “research.” What methodology did they employ? Are they affiliated with a particular university?
Interestingly, I have a personal anecdote to share in this regard. I had just begun Grade One at —- School in Halifax and was taught by a Miss Warner. She was then middle-aged, her steel-coloured hair was pulled back in a severe bun, she wore rimless pince-nez glasses, and looked enormous although, I suppose, she was only of regular height. Things went quite well except in Arithmetic. Miss Warner’s method was group instruction and she never engaged the pupils on an individual basis. She stood at the front of the room and, with her pink rubber-tipped pointer, she pointed at each line of simple additions and subtractios she had written on the blackboard. The class all followed her rythmic chanting: 5+6= 11! 8+7=15! and so on. I joined in with the rest of the class but had no idea what I was saying. Then we had our first test.
I failed. I remember the mark. It was 40%! I couldn’t believe it! I was a member of a small group of other failures. We were told to remain in our seats while the others, who all had made 100%, lined the long wall of the class underneath the huge windows from which, as it happened, I could see my house just over the fence. Miss Warner had a collection of hand puppets which she kept in her desk. She put one on and walked down the line of the successful students, shaking each one’s hand and offering her congratulations. The failures like me felt like sinking into our seats. It was total humiliation. It was traumatic. I have never forgotten it and it didn’t happen yesterday. So yes, I can confirm the findings of the “research” on the negative emotional impact of failure in children at that age.
Some years later I happened to be in a restaurant and saw Miss Warner who looked very frail and was obviously long since retired. She was being helped to her table by her minder. I sat there wondering whether I should go over, introduce myself, and ask her how she was. I decided against it.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Let me guess, you opted instead to leave a dreaded “Flaming Fudge Sack” on her porch and burned down her whole house. revenge, is indeed, a dish best served cold.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Another SET parent.
Look, I’m glad your kid’s doing well now, but passing kids onto the next grade if they clearly don’t have a grasp of the material is a detriment to your kid.
Kids need some toughening up these days. The world doesn’t give two shits about your ‘self esteem.’ Kids aren’t being taught rejection and aren’t ‘failing’ at anything, so they have no idea how to handle rejection and failing. Psychologists are noticing this in the population in young adulthood now and have a lot of adults who grew up being rewarded for just participating because oh we can’t hurt their self esteem, and then having nervous breakdowns because just ‘participating’ doesn’t mean shit in most aspects of the grown up world.
You never know, OB, maybe holding your precious miracle back a great could’ve done him a great deal of good.
I know your kid can do no wrong in your eyes, but that’s not how the rest of the world sees the little bugger. Better he learn it young so he has lots of time to get used to it.
I dunno PK, he’s only 5. If he was 12 or 13 I might agree with you
primary can be a bit of a daycare, at times. some parents have already taught their children enough, that they fly through elementary school
How can you flunk colouring?
hahaha, that’s too funny ttfn. i remember the colouring, it continued into grade 9. wth, why are they still doing this, way to lower the bar
a.d,h.d. is a bitch o.p., and maybe your kid was a tad too immature at his/her age to concentrate better. speaking as a parent/grandparent, i have seen it all in my kids, yeah, i got 4.
a small kids attention span is usually very short at 4-5 years of age, they wanna play or sleep, or mmaybe just eat to grow more.
i have had my girls grow into very intelligent young ladies, and my boys, well they are real quick to learn also. but that was after they turned ten. give the teach a break, no two kids are the same, and some are slower than others.
This kid is probably getting As and Bs because the teacher has to give those grades out instead of actual marks.
OB, your loser brat will probably need a calculator in the future just to know how old they’ll turn on their next birthday.
but then again, they will know how many grams of coke are in a kilo.
I doubt kids will be as ambitious enough to sell blow, Grampa Suckers. Or trusted enough to sell it.
Primary can be tricky in the sense that some kids start at age four and don’t turn five until December. These “December” kids often are just a bit behind the others in the ability to conceptualize and learn not because of intellect but because of brain development. The other kids in the class can be anywhere from a month to a year older which is a big difference at that age.
I don’t know if OP’s kid is one of those but, if he was, that might be the reason the teacher wanted to “retain”.
Your child was probably immature and/or a behaviour issue. Just because they’re yours doesn’t mean they’re perfect.
How can your kid need to repeat primary? That’s like what, shapes, colours, ABCs, numbers and reading? That’s all stuff you should have taught them before they even walked into their first classroom, ffs.
Your child was probably immature and/or a behaviour problem. Just because they’re yours doesn’t mean they’re perfect.
“This kid is probably getting As and Bs because the teacher has to give those grades out instead of actual marks. “
Probably
“Your child was probably immature and/or a behaviour issue. Just because they’re yours doesn’t mean they’re perfect.”
Pretty much.
BTW: a good friend of mine was held back in kindergarten. He graduated with an MA in International Business from Harvard two years ago.
OB, I’m all for the whole “the best revenge is success” thing, but your bitch REALLY REALLY makes you sound like a parent whose kid can do no wrong in their eyes. They could kill kittens and you’d think it was adorable because OH HAY your little miracle has a hobby!
But see, those are the kids who end up sending body parts to political party HQs.
Maybe your kid would be making ALL As if he had’ve spent that extra year in primary. And maybe he’d do better later on down the road. You could be up for some rocky roads down the line when the curriculum gets more and more advanced because you know what happens to a house with a shitty foundation? It falls over.
Good luck. Start saving money for tutors now. I’m sure you’ll need it.
Wow, PK. Stuff sure makes you angry. Especially when clearly you are an authority on all subjects, and topping the list is child psychology. I guess a degree in HRM delves deeply into that subject, or is it your personal experience with all things children that gives you your insight? Nice personal anecdote (as predicted) of “your buddy” who graduated from harvard.
“OB, I’m all for the whole “the best revenge is success” thing, but your bitch REALLY REALLY makes you sound like a parent whose kid can do no wrong in their eyes. They could kill kittens and you’d think it was adorable because OH HAY your little miracle has a hobby! “
“But see, those are the kids who end up sending body parts to political party HQs.”
Yay for the blatant stereotype portion of your post.
“Psychologists are noticing this in the population in young adulthood now and have a lot of adults who grew up being rewarded for just participating because oh we can’t hurt their self esteem, and then having nervous breakdowns because just ‘participating’ doesn’t mean shit in most aspects of the grown up world.”
Maybe that child will grow up to live with their parents well into their 30’s, sleep 12 hours a day and get to do everyone a “favor” by calling them out on their “bullshit”. That sounds familiar. Did you get ribbons and medals for participation, PK? Bahahaha, some people are such SETS its unreal!
sadly, this is what it’s coming to…
we’re slipping into Generation ME
http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/va…
THE TRADITIONALISTS & THE PROGRESSIVISTS
First just a couple updates to my previous post. After the debacle of my first Arithmetic test I want you to know that made 100% on all which followed, which were quite numerous. (I mean, my God, this is Montrealman speaking.) Secondly, Miss Warner wore rimless steel glasses, not pince-nez. It was some time ago but not back to Victorian times although the school itself (yes, red brick) was built in 1905 – the date is still there on the front – so it didn’t miss those times by much.
As the old saying goes, you just don’t teach something, you teach something to somebody which nicely encapsulates the traditionalist –
progressivist divide. The former emphasizes the “something” (i.e., the subject matter, discipline, hard work, etc.) while the latter emphasizes the “somebody” (i.e., the cognitive/affective level, family background, etc.). Generally speaking, the emphasis moves from pure progressivism (as evidenced in the “research” cited by the bitcher) at the primary and lower elementary levels, through a mix of both in the middle grades, then to pure traditionalism at the high school level and beyond.
Since the commenters on Bitch, as we all know, range from strong small-“c” conservative to outright reactionary, they tended to favour the traditionalist position, while one or two showed some progressivist tendencies. While the traditionalist pattern tends to remain constant over most issues, there are “bandwagon” exceptions such as homophobia, gay marriage, and so on which can be seen to pop up regularly as Bitches.
I hope that this will have clarified any confusions that you might have entertained. That will be $10 please.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
*1912*
Wow, SHITTY, you care WAY too much about what I say.
Quotes and everything. I’m flattered I’ve become your new hobby. I simply remind you of your deficiencies in intellect here or there, while you’ve taken your obsession to an entirely new level!
Also: really? The only thing you could manage to come up with was ragging on the fact that I”m 30 and live with my parents? A situation I’ve claimed many times doesn’t bother me and has been EXTREMELY beneficial to my bank account, retirement investments and student debt repayment. Nice! Talk about grasping at straws!
And there’s nothing wrong with getting a good night’s rest. Especially when you have a job that takes up a good portion of your day and actually requires some level of intellect. But since 12 year olds (and those with similar intellect/maturity) aren’t expected to hold down jobs, you wouldn’t know anything about that.
Plus, I never got ‘participation’ medals growing up, because I was too busy winning actual medals. 😉 True story!
Forgive me for stooping to your moronic immature level, SHITTY, but your willingness to engage in your ‘special’ (special as in slow special) way, is rather entertaining. Keep up the good work! There may be a participation medal in there for ya!
Here’s some stuff to get you REALLY revved up! Contradict away!
1. the sky is blue
2. rain is wet
3. snow is cold
4. fire is hot
I anxiously await your Moron-Logic(c) (<-- new term for SHITTY's special brand of stupid) on those ones, SHITTY! Have a great day!
“1. the sky is blue
2. rain is wet
3. snow is cold
4. fire is hot”
That must have been your homework from last night PK? If I did so well on my assignments I’d be proud to show them off too!
The development of a child is dependent on that specific child. The findings of a study done on 100 children do not always apply to the 101st child. Get what I mean?
If a kid is held back in primary it can have many outcomes, all dependent on the individual child’s personality, predisposition and environment. One kid might become stubborn after being failed, making them motivated to succeed no matter what anyone else says (just one of many possible affects). Another child might take it as a shot to their self-esteem causing them to lose motivation and fail later on in life. A kid develops so much at that age that a seemingly small incident can have huge ramifications down the road.
I actually don’t really care what you write, I think it’s funny that you get all mad and write these long winded responses to my posts indicating how “stupid” I am. I treat you a lot like “Asian Elvis”, amusing to watch struggle, but mostly annoying to listen too. That is all for this week, PK. I do look forward to trolling you in the future.
PS; everything takes up a healthy portion of the day when you sleep through half of it.
PK, I think SHITD had to write it like that because he agreed with you, but didn’t like it one bit!
OB, I think the posters who said that repeating was not about grades but about behavior and reaction to new things (what used to be called ‘deportment’) are spot on.
Like Moman (and that little memory explains a lot, btw) I, too have anecdotal experience with this.
I entered kindergarten at 4 years old. Nothing wrong with me academically (I wore bifocals because I was reading) but I don’t think I was ready in other ways. I remember clearly wearing a green jumper the day before St. Patrick’s day because I couldn’t wait for the real day (I would have failed the famous ‘marshmallow test’ behaviorists give to kids!) being smacked on the palms with a yardstick for running with scissors, going to another little girls house after school without telling my mother and other incidents that, in retrospect, practically scream ’emotional immaturity’ (remember, AD/HD hadn’t been discovered yet!)
When we moved to the states, I was among the youngest in my grade. Many kids in my town, particularly boys with birthdays after September, could have attended the previous year, but their parents held them back, not wanting their kid to be the shortest boy in the class by high school.
What your kid’s school gave you was a recommendation based on their professional experience. They are seeking to do what is best for your child. What body of knowledge are you accessing that tells you to push your kid when he isn’t ready? His attitude will have a lot to do with yours: if you didn’t make a big deal about it, he wouldn’t either. It’s only in later grades that being ‘held back.’ becomes a stigma. In fact, in Massachusetts, the entering age for kindergarten has moved from 5th birthday before Jan 1 to by September 1. When I taught high school, none of the graduates were 17 years old like I was.
Congratulations, OB, You got your way in this. Please print out a hard copy of this bitch and file it away with his other school records. In the future, when your kid gets into trouble due to his emotional immaturity you can comfort yourself with how your actions when he was just a kindergartener put him behind the rest of the class from the get-go.
“I treat you a lot like “Asian Elvis”, amusing to watch struggle, but mostly annoying to listen too.”
http://i.imgur.com/6yK2u.gif
I thought you said Asian Evils, Stevie.. I was like..
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4hTTkQlCvNI/TdkH…
Zilla, if you are on FB, this is for you:
http://failbook.failblog.org/2012/06/05/fu…
Yes, Xeno. I agree with you that it does explain much of MM’s disdain for (in his opinion) the uneducated masses. How literally he took that little life lesson. Don’t worry, MM. You will always be that “humiliated child” to us, big guy.
My brother was held back in grade 1 for developmental issues and turned out fine. If I’ve learned anything from hearing about how parents respond to teachers these days when it comes to their kids, the parents always know more than the teachers. I don’t know why we even bother hiring licensed teachers, maybe daycare staff would be cheaper.
xeno…
great minds think alike.
http://www.thecoast.ca/LovetheWayWeBitch/a…
I did the exact same thing yesterday
RSVPs
: Xenophilia (06/08, 11:29AM)
“… and that little memory explains a lot, btw…”
Well, thank you Xeno. I suppose you are referring to my perfect marks in Arithmetic after that first stumble. Of course, after that it was onwards and upwards!
I must say that I found your anecdotal account of your early school years rather, um, unanecdotal. It was too descriptive and so lacking in true anecdotal force which, after all, is the purpose of the anecdote. Rather than an arms-length account of your early school experience involving different ages for school entry and so on, I was hoping for something a bit more punchy, something like, um, the trauma of failing your first Arithmetic test. But you do show some promise Xeno and so warrant a mark of 40/100. I’m sure you’ll do better next time. Stay in your seat with the rest of the failures while I congratulate the others who all scored 100%.
I’m not familiar with the “marshmallow test.” Did you pass? Were you sick?
: Stephen Harper (1:21PM)
Yes Stephen, you’re quite right. I’m still trying to put the debacle behind me but with only limited success. By the way, I did enjoy your tussle with PK. We need more of that stuff.
The traditionalist-progressivist debate, of course, has its roots in philosophy, specifically the realist-constructivist “wars” which characterize much of the current “angst” in some university circles. It goes to show the real-world impact of philosophy. You just can’t get along without it!
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Moman-for someone who considers himself an intellectual, there’s a ton of stuff you just don’t know. Kind of a one trick pony aren’t you?
The marshmallow test was to see if kids could delay gratification. They could take either one marshmallow at the moment it was offered, or get two marshmallows if they waited 5 minutes. They then tracked the ones vs the twos in later life to see if there was a correlation (there was—look it up if you care).
Since I couldn’t possibly compete with your story of the 40% and the lifetime of trauma that ensued, I didn’t even try. You have a habit of not seeing the forest for the trees—did you get the point of my post at all?
I probably (likely) was too harsh on the teacher. I have no doubt he had this student’s best interests at heart. I actually whole heartedly believe that not every child deserves a trophy – and that my children in particular – need to learn from ‘life’s hard lessons’ – as I know that is where I learned what got me to where I am today.
I hold no fantasies that my children will not be the next Crosby or Bill Gates. I will be enormously proud if they live true to their values and live life with integrity, and are able to support themselves and any dependants.
When this teacher shared with me that my busy, short attention spanned first born might need ‘retention’ I was broken hearted. I spoke with friends, family members, co-workers who have all lived this experience (retention/held back) themselves or via their children. All said – it was a 50/50 split. Once close friend sharing she wishes she had been held back – as she always felt she was scrambling to catch up. A co-worker tearfully told me he never ‘shook’ the feeling that everyone knew he was ‘held back’ and feeling like he never outlived that stigma.
I’m attaching one segment of research that represents the emotional toll I worried would befall my son.
http://www.nasponline.org/resources/handou…
One night over dinner I asked my son what he was looking forward to after summer vacation – and he said grade 1. I committed to supporting this and know we will face this same question again and again with him – as his challenges in grade primary pushed us to further testing, and he is dyslexic and likely has some attention/hyper activity issues.
None of us knows what the future holds – but he’s awesome and I don’t regret all the work we’ve done with him. He is so proud to be reading his own Dr. Seuss stories – and frankly – that is some goooood reading!
It’s parents and bleeding heart liberals that are sending kids out in the world who have no basic skills because they’re afraid to hurt little jaohnny and Janie’s feelings. God, the piss poor English and grammar I see is appalling. They can’t do basic math without a calculator and the list goes on. The best kindness we can give them is to fail them. Even better take an interest in them and their schoolwork and teach them how to study and give them ambition and goals.
RSVP
: Xenophilia (06/08, 6:28PM)
“I couldn’t possibly compete with your story…”
You see Xeno, you have learned a valuable lesson from Montrealman, viz. the recognition of the limits of your abilities, the very lesson the teacher was trying to teach the bitcher’s child. That is a very important first step to take, Xeno. It is to be hoped that it will not be the last.
A possible explanation of such limits of your abilities – one no doubt of many – is your inability to restrain your carnal desires. I’m sure you scoffed the first marshmallow right out of the tester’s hand. Some things, of course, never change. Impulse control Xeno, that’s the ticket.
To be honest Xeno, I’ve always thought of you as a “tree” person which your anecdote, containing only one “tree” as far as I could see (the age of school entry), amply confirmed. I, on the other hand, am a “forest” person as is evidenced by my living and writing in the realm of the great ideas, i.e., philosophy. Didn’t you get the point of any of my posts at all, Xeno? Tell me it’s not so.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
***You see Xeno, you have learned a valuable lesson from Montrealman***
Yet I am the one who who is constantly schooling you-now there’s irony!
The only lesson you have taught me (one that I have failed to learn, alas) is to not reply more than once to your posts, however much you opportune. You have a childish propensity (dare I say obsession?) of insisting on having the last word in a I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I response that isn’t worth the time it takes to read.
I should just let you have the last damn word and shower you with indifference henceforth, but as I have posted several times, I do have impulsive and attentional issues. Like many on this anonymous forum, I am honest about my shortcomings- (et vous, monsieur?)
For a gay man, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with my appearance. Maybe you should find yourself another hobby besides this forum, or just get out more. While every man’s reach should exceed his grasp (or what’s a heaven for?) clearly your fantasies about me are becoming detrimental to your Vision Mondiale.
yo timothy, i’m a bleeding heart liberal and my spawn is a feckin genius^^
RSVP
Oh dear, Xeno’s back up and getting a bit stroppy but let’s take her observations, such as they are, one at a time.
1. “You have a childish propensity (dare I say obsession) in (sic) having the last word…”
While this might seem to be the case Xeno, the real reason is less a matter of psychology and more one of etiquette. You see, when someone speaks (or writes) to me I have always felt is just a matter of common courtesy to respond. I mean, if you were chatting with someone Xeno and, in response to a remark of your’s, they just looked at you in silence, wouldn’t you feel that to be a bit odd, even rude? Of course you would. So now you know why I reply to all my interlocutors. It’s all about my innate sense of manners, one I hope that you will attempt to adopt.
2. “… I do have impulsive and attentional issues…”
As a matter of fact Xeno, this struck me as well. Could it be that you have precisely those characteristics which you attribute to me, i.e., a childish propensity (dare I say obsession) with having the last word? You must reflect on this Xeno.
3. “For a gay man, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with my appearance…”
Now I found this to be quite interesting Xeno, not so much my “obsession” with your appearance – excluding your labia, of course, which I praised unreservedly in “Lady in Red” – but rather your claim that I am gay. I was wondering about the grounds upon which such an assertion was based. My thinking is that it relates to my elevated idiom – one employed by a better class of person if you know what I mean – which the lower orders often equate with being gay. But then it could be something more profound, something to which you have twigged in one of my comments. Of course, we will never know unless, well, unless you tell us and judging by your last comment, this sadly appears to be unlikely.
4. “Clearly your fantasies about me are becoming detrimental to your Vision Mondiale.”
I found this to be somewhat puzzling Xeno. I take it that the fantasies to which you refer deal with your labia which, of course, is quite true. But the puzzle relates to their impeding my Vision Mondiale. I see no inconsistence here. Can my fantasies about your labia and my Vision Mondiale not peacefully coexist? I can see no reason why not but then I might, as incredible as it may seem, be mistaken. But, as with #3 Xeno, we will never know unless you tell us and judging by your last comment this sadly appears to be unlikely.
I hope I have not unduly taxed your resources Xeno but, if you do not reply, that will be answer enough. We will know the truth Xeno, the truth being that your resources *have* been unduly taxed.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
***(you claim that I am gay) … it could be something more profound, something to which you have twigged in one of my comments***
Yes, there are many things you have ‘twigged’ (Monsieur Le Boisvieux) but I’ll keep it simple:
1. owners are like their dogs
2. you have whippets
3. a whippet is just a gay greyhound— everyone knows that!
Ipso Facto Q.E. Motherfucking D.
“a whippet is just a gay greyhound” – Lolz 😉
http://chroniclesofconception.files.wordpr…
***As a matter of fact Xeno, this struck me as well. Could it be that you have precisely those characteristics which you attribute to me **
and for the last time, use ‘that’ not ‘which’ unless there’s a comma in the sentence!
http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/24…
Jesum Crow, bonehead! Get it right! The only thing that irks me more (grammatically) than misusing that and which is ‘hone in on’ instead of ‘home in on.’ That one really irks me.
C’mon Guys. Pets are non-combatants. Don’t make me sic Big Gay Al on y’all. >; )
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/0…
Excellent post, montrealman (06/09, 4:17 p.m.)
oh, so you are the other one who ‘liked’ it…
That was probably Ivan.
Hmmmmm…PK, ummmmmmm. The sky isn’t blue, it’s actually transparent (clear), it only appears to be blue.
“The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through.
However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.
As you look closer to the horizon, the sky appears much paler in color. To reach you, the scattered blue light must pass through more air. Some of it gets scattered away again in other directions. Less blue light reaches your eyes. The color of the sky near the horizon appears paler or white.”
If you get your shit together when being facetious, people won’t laugh at you.
I still can’t colour inside the lines 🙁
Hoo, The return of the Black Rose. How ya doin’, dollin?
MM 06/09/2012 at 4:17 PM
“While this might seem to be the case Xeno, the real reason is less a matter of psychology and more one of etiquette. You see, when someone speaks (or writes) to me I have always felt is (sic) just a matter of common courtesy to respond. I mean, if you were chatting with someone Xeno and, in response to a remark of your’s (sic), …. “
Once again, I aint no strict grammarian, but is “your’s” even a word?
RSVPs
: Xenophila (06/09, 5:37PM)
Well, it seems that Xeno is unable, once again, to restrain her “impulsive and intentional issues” – I get the “impulsive” part but am unclear about the “intentional” – and so pops up again to take another spanking. Any more retorts after this Xeno, and I’ll have to pull your panties down and give it to you on your bare bum. This might be exciting, for you if not for me. So, on to the comments:
Read my post over again Xeno. It is you and not I who have “twigged.” This, as you are probably unaware, is a relatively upper-class English locution not commonly found among the lower orders. You have twigged to that, Xeno, haven’t you?
Your reference to a whippet being a “gay greyhound” indicates that your resources have indeed been unduly taxed. The note of disparagement in the comparison hints at unresolved homophobia, Xeno. Have you been troubled lately by homophobic anxieties? Now’s the time to tell us Xeno.
(6:20PM)
But look again Xeno. There *is* a comma in the sentence! Try honing in on it.
: Biscuit (6:37PM)
Thank you Biscuit. I thought it was one of my better ones too. I liked the combination of structure which I actually numbered and the content consisting of my usual sensitive yet penetrating analysis. I know I set the bar high Biscuit, but something must be done to elevate the level of discussion on this site.
: Xenophilia (6:55PM)
Look at those “Likes” Xeno. Case dismissed.
Well chaps, that was quick work. As I say Xeno, any further impulsive and intentional comments and it’s down with your panties!
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
I’m good Ivan… Me Ma is visiting from Hogtown and brought her iPad so I can play on the internets for real… Is everyone going summiting next week? 🙂
RSVP
: adhoc (06/10, 9:13AM)
Excellent work adhoc. You’re right, it should have been “it was” for “is.” Clearly, better proofing is in order.
As far as “your’s” goes, I was looking at that when I was writing, and decided it could go either way but I could be wrong. Thanks.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Roger that. How’s your living situation right now. Would a limited edition piece of artwork from the Gallery of Ivan be a burden?
I’m still out in Hubbards… I <3 limited edition Ivan artwork. Is SoBova coming too? Still haven't met her or Wheelie's gal either... So looking forward to it.... But you guys have to be nice to my Ma... Please... For the love of God....
hay sweetie, that’s a greyhound, hugo
SOBova’s got a summit of her own to attend! Imagine that *indignant eyebrow raise”
Of course we’ll be nice to your Ma. Parents and pets are noncombatants and therefore protected under the Ivan Convention.
(Things have come to a pretty pass when I’m the voice of moderation and humanity hereabouts.)
Howze the puppydog?
Puppers is good… She’s been having freak outs because I haven’t been able to take her to work and whatnot, but I do have a new vehicle and I will be bringing her to the summit if it isn’t too hot out… Wish restaurants in Canada allowed animals… She could be our mascot lol! And what the heck does SoBova have going on that could possibly be more important than the Halgonquin Round Table?
PG are you summiting? need a lift?
I could tellz ya, but I’d have to…well, you know.
Somewhere along the line she got a life of her own when I wasn’t looking. Ivan no like. Me say this bad medicine. >; )
still not sure rosie, the family haven’t made plans yet. as long as it’s a three hour cruise, i should be there at some point. you could always come over to the house afterwards, i will let you know
Bad indeed! Def let me know PG… We’ll meet at some point! 🙂
Hi Rosie 🙂
There’s a place on Portland, with an outdoor deck. They let me take Blue there.
See ya’ll Sunday.
@Montrealman
I’ve been doing research into alternate renewable energy recently, which got me thinking… Is it possible to harness the power of your arrogance? It does seem to be limitless, which would make an excellent power source. If we could find a way to tap into the full depth of your well of arrogance it could become a warm light for all mankind.
i can always babysit the wee beastie, we’re sans le giant goof boy…roo
Aww PG… 🙁 If you are not Summiting maybe I will bring Her Royal Freakness over and she can tear around your yard…. Email me when you have a chance hun
TROLL’S ALTERNATE RENEWABLE ENERGY
: TrollTollBridge (06/10, 1:29PM)
“Is it possible to harness the power of your arrogance?”
Well Troll, I don’t think the technology is there yet but I can see that you’re on the right track in seeking out new alternate renewable energy sources. However, before we get there, it seems to me that we should get clearer about the debate over climate-change science, a debate in which I previously engaged with the “warmists” and from which I emerged victorious, if memory serves. (Could there be any other outcome?)
The thing is Troll, that while there is consensus over the fact that global warming is a fact, there is no such consensus about the rate of that warming nor that human activities such as CO2 emissions due to fossil fuel consumption is the principal cause. Long-term solar cycles as well as changes in the earth’s surface due to development may well play a significant role. The point is that the science is in no way settled and policy remedies based on such a view would not only be ineffective but even disastrous to our current civilization.
The “warmists” resemble the “Children’s Crusade” of mediaeval times in their naive faith that shutting down industry and taking cars off the roads will usher in a new ecological Jerusalem. On the contrary, a much heavier human toll than just adapting to climate change as it comes along would result. Of course, in some parts of the world (i.e., Canada, Russia, northern China, etc.) warming would even be a good thing. Further still, a clear-headed cost-benefit analysis comparing the benefits of of development and infrastructure against the costs of raising of lowering sea levels by perhaps two or three feet over a century has yet to be done. Of course, even speaking about the gaps in the science of climate change is still a warmist taboo.
But as I say Troll, I think you’re on the right track but the technology – to say nothing of the science – is still not there to harness the power of my arrogance as a source of alternate renewable energy. Perhaps harnessing the power of your flaulent comments might be a better place to start.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
“there is no such consensus about the rate of that warming nor that human activities such as CO2 emissions due to fossil fuel consumption is the principal cause.”
True, no one knows the ‘principle’ cause, but it is a well know fact that it is A cause.
“The point is that the science is in no way settled and policy remedies based on such a view would not only be ineffective but even disastrous to our current civilization.”
What policy remedies are you referring to? Half of the power generated in Germany is renewable, this was brought around by policy changes, how is this a bad thing?
“The “warmists” resemble the “Children’s Crusade” of mediaeval times in their naive faith that shutting down industry and taking cars off the roads…”
Thanks for grouping us all together, gotta love the blind generalizations. None of the discussions I’ve had about climate change involved the shutting down of industry. On the contrary, it would be essential to help create the technology required to bring about an end to rapid climate change. Also, most people SHOULD get rid of their cars, they don’t need them, but they are invaluable for a number of operations like long distance transport, construction and policing. So yeah, some cars should go, but it would be silly to think we’d get rid of everyone.
“Of course, in some parts of the world (i.e., Canada, Russia, northern China, etc.) warming would even be a good thing.”
FALSE! Ecosystems are incredible delicate. You start raising temperatures and the first thing you’ll wipe out is amphibian life. Also, the largest concentration of Methane in the world is frozen underground beneath the arctic tundra (which is mostly in Canada and Russia BTW). Methane is the most potent greenhouse gas, and there’s more of it beneath the ground than is currently in the atmosphere. We warm the ground and release it and it’s game over, the global temperature would skyrocket and turn our planet into a dust-bowl resembling Mars.
“Further still, a clear-headed cost-benefit analysis comparing the benefits of of development and infrastructure against the costs of raising of lowering sea levels by perhaps two or three feet over a century has yet to be done.”
Possibly my least favorite part of your post. Cost. Money isn’t going to save the world Man, the sooner people give up their obsession with how much everything costs the closer we’ll be to saving our future.
“Of course, even speaking about the gaps in the science of climate change is still a warmist taboo.”
Yeah… some people get upset when you denounce their life research into the environment. Hell, they even get upset when you talk smack about them, rip apart their ideas and beliefs, then disregard them without ever presenting a counter solution or research of their own…
*flatulent*
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
RSVP
: Knight on the Dole (06/11, 8:21AM)
My last post, *flatulent*, referred to a typo on the last line of my previous post (06/10, 4:04 PM). Yours was not yet posted.
My reaction to your latest, however, is remarkably similar, i.e., flatulent. I won’t bother going over it point by point since you never addressed mine. I can say that the least favourite part of it was your “correction” of my phrase “principal cause” as ‘principle’ cause. Get a dictionary.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Thank you for correcting my grammar, even tho it has nothing to do with the subject I was discussing. Is that all you have to say with regards to climate change?
Good post “Knight”, accurate too. Too bad the idiot you posted it for doesn’t have the wherewithal or comprehension required to grasp the concept.
You might as well be addressing a bag of wet cement, as trying to logically discuss anything with Muntremoleman.
Thank you, Mr Phurst.
You know someones been backed into a corner when all they can do is attack your grammar or spelling. I would have enjoyed some counter points, but that’s not the way of Climate Change Naysayers.
RSVP
: Knight on the Dole (6/11, 9:16AM)
“Is that all you have to say with regards (sic) to climate change?
Well Knight, yes it is. I’ve been over this ground before and I know the path ahead. It goes like this:
Step 1: Both sides (the “Warmists” and the “Sceptics”) both make their respective claims.
Step 2: Each side demands “evidence” from the other. This requires citing sources.
Step 3: Each side then attacks the credibility of the other’s sources.
Step 4: The issue then becomes one of (religious) belief. Who’s sources do you believe? This will depend on the psychology of the respective disputants. Are you an optimist (the Sceptic) or a Jeremiah shouting, “Repent or be damned!” (the Warmist).
Step 5: Each side then begins name-calling.
Step 5: Each side then retreats, snarling and hissing, back to Step 1.
So Knight, do you now understand why I said that is all I have to say about climate change? But, just to show you I’m not a heartless beast, here’s a sampling of what I’m talking about. It’s from The London Sunday Telegraph’s Christopher Booker (“About the euro and global warming, it turns out the ‘thought criminals’ were right,” 19 May). Here’s Christopher:
“We saw it* in spades as the promoters of ‘consensus’ took over the commanding heights of the scientific world – such as The Royal Society, Nature, the universites
(on a sea of climate-change related funding)… Whoever challenged their orthodoxy, however rational, these were ‘deniers’ ‘flat-earthers’, “anti-scientiic nutters’ who must be in the pay of Big Oil”.
* “It” refers to Orwell’s “thought crime” in his “1984”.
So there you are Knight. I just have no interest in going around the mullberry bush again.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Oh yeah? Says who?!
It’s a fallacy to assume an argument will take a predetermined course, especially in this setting.
1. We have stated our claims; True. Although you made a poor attemp at educating TrollBridge, while I filtered the errors from your post.
2. I demand no evidence, logic can solve the majority of problems without the need to rely on scientific evidence. Although I would be interested to know where your thoughts about the northern countries came from. Likely some puppet working for big oil, spreading climate change rumors 😉 I joke, of course.
3. It’s called Socratic debate. Eliminating the least likely hypothesis ( in this case regarding climate change) in an attempt to determine the more likely truth.
4. Please explain why the warmists are not the optimists. Are they not the ones who see an ideal future? One worth sacrificing for? You’d have to be pretty optimistic to risk givin up so much for a future you may never see. Conversely the skeptic would take the narrow minded approach, choosing not to read the writing on the wall, instead living his day to day life without any long term plan.
5. I tend to avoid name calling. Although you seem to enjoy it.
5. If you feel like regressing back through the progress I’ve made with you, then be my guest. I won’t get my back up because someone cannot understand the environment that created them.
I understand that you’ve lost hope. Which could be why you don’t wish to argue the point further. There is a middle ground. Everything doesn’t have to be black and white, run by big brother, with each side at the others throat.
It is the duty of a scientist to question. To question everything. That includes both pro and anti climate changers.
Finally, for one who has debated the subject before (and apparently emerged victorious), what are your solutions to climate change?… that is, if you even believe in it.
RSVP
: Knight on the Pole (06/11, 8:43PM)
Well Knight, I must say that I was disappointed in your response. I had thought that you would move directly to Step 3, attacking the credibility of my sources, particularly Christopher Booker who has been writing about the climate-change hoax for years. Of course, that would mean actually reading Booker, something that zealots like you never do. Instead all I got was more flatulence.
I’m trying to help you out, Knight. It’s the first time as far as I know in the climate-change debate that the sceptic (English spelling) extended a heping hand to a warmist, but I can see you need any help you can get. So here’s a couple more sources for you. For the beneficial effect of climate change on the northern countries see Dr. Judith Curry, Chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology. As far as disagreement with the view that the science on the issue is settled, a key warmist assumption, see Dr. Ross McKittrick of the University of Guelph who has delved into the economics of climate change for more than a decade.
Now Knight, I hope you realize that discrediting my sources is key to your argument. You failed in the case of Booker but now is your chance. I want you now to get to work and begin discrediting both Curry and McKittrick. This, unfortunately, will require your reading their work but I know you’re up to it.
I initially intended to go over your post slotting each number into its appropriate Step (see my previous post) but became bored with the prospect since, of course, it would have made no difference for zealots like you. However, I do realize that you know best what scientists do and where their obligations lie (“It is the duty of the scientist etc. etc.”) and so you can now reveal from which university you received your Ph.D. I received mine from the University of Ottawa but unfortunately it was not in science, so I await your revelations in this regard with considerable anticipation.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
First, I’d like you to point out in my posts where exactly I said that the science regarding Climate Change was settled. It seems you’ve gone and put words in my mouth again Man, as I’ve actually been encouraging the debate.
I was unfamiliar with Christopher Booker (I don’t have to time to read everything, unfortunately), although I’m glad you brought up Dr. Curry. I read one of her studies a while back, and until you mentioned her I had forgotten she existed. I took your advice and read through 4 of her articles this morning (through her online C.V.), and briefly scanned a few more. I realize that it’s almost impossible for me to discredit her, because she’s arguing in my favor. You said that I think the debate on climate change is settled, not me, and her studies regarding arctic sea ice, northern weather patterns, land to sea ice ratios, and regional climate models promote the idea of a warming trend. The only issue she doesn’t seem to cover in depth (that I could find) was the impact on plant and animal life. Her references to northern climates, such as Siberia, benefiting from global warming were speculation at best (Unless she produced a case study dealing specifically with sustainable plant and animal life in that new climate that I haven’t found yet)
Her research was mostly intended to create climate models that eliminated the discrepancies between the other, less accurate, models.
Example: One study might show that sea ice is retreating by 1km/yr due to warming trends, while another states it’s actually 1.5km/yr. She tries to create a model that accurately portrays whats happening. See what I did there?
Unfortunately I won’t have time to research McKittrick until a later time (My clients can’t wait forever). Although I’m sure to learn something from his research into the economics of changing climates.
I have no Ph.D. (I’m sure you now think me less qualified to debate with you). My background is in Architecture and Engineering. I’m working my way (slowly) towards a Masters in Education. My line about scientists questioning everything was in response to your quote from Christopher Brooks. I don’t believe that’s how people should operate (the orthodoxy you referred to). If 9 out of 10 people all come to the same conclusion, it should be the duty of the 10th to research as much as possible the opposite of the groups findings. This insures that a totally biased situation doesn’t arise.
So, the facts still support a global warming trend. I’ve been steadily making changes to mitigate my effect on global warming, what have you been doing?
What’s your Ph.D. in anyways? Philosophy? Just curious..
BTW: Knight on the Pole… clever. You get bonus points for that one.
RSVP
: Knight on a damsel (06/11, 8:43PM)
It seems that we have been arguing, at least to some extent, at cross-purposes. I had originally had you pegged as the usual “warmist” zealot characterized by two principal features: (1) The science on AGW climate change is settled and anyone who disagrees with this is a flat-earther or in the pay of Big Oil and, (2) The standard method of defence is to discredit the sceptic’s sources. On reading over you latest, however, I conclude that you endorse neither of these two features of the “true believer.” Let’s look briefly in turn.
(1) I did not put words in your mouth regarding the debate being settled but in the course of spanking “TrollTollBridge” (06/10, 4:04PM). My claim that it wasn’t was based on Ross McKitterick’s identical claim and, moreover, “That there is no way of fixing it by tinkering around the edges. Windmills are irrelevant. We’re talking about shutting down industry and taking cars off the road.” (quoted in Michael Den Tandt, “The gaps in climate-change science,” The Gazette, June 8, 2012). Similarly,
Den Tandt quotes Judith Curry in respect to the benevolent effects of global warming in northern countries: “In some parts of the world, warming would be good. Think Canada, Russia, northern China for starters. They might have more hospital weather, longer growing seasons, a longer tourist season.” My point is that you have neither maintained that the debate is “settled” nor have you attempted to discredit McKitterick or Curry as I (mistakenly) supposed you would.
(2) As I mentioned previously, I have debated AGW before. A major source of mine was Ian Plime’s “Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, The Missing Science” (2009) who claimed that it was not the result of greenhouse gas emissions but rather the normal shifts in the solar patterns which had occurred numerous times in the past. Immediately the “true believers” jumped on Plime, (and by extension me) charging he was a rogue, the tool of the Australian coal interests. But even though he served on the Board this does not mean that he was a rogue. No evidence was given to show that he was duplicitous but for the zealots this is irrelevant. So this experience “plimed me” (a little Montrealman joke there) to (mistakenly) anticipate something similar from you. My concern is not so much AGW as such but rather the dogmatism of its supporters.
Yes, my Ph.D. is in philosophy – Philosophy of Education to be exact. How did you guess? Your academic trajectory seems unusual to say the least, going from a B. Arch. and a B.E. to study for an M.Ed. Any chance for an elaboration?
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Excellent points, montrealman! (12/06, 4:40 p.m.)
I too have read a few studies claiming that the Earth is experiencing a natural climate shift. And I believe that. Just as much as I know the consumption of fossil fuels is causing an effect. It is the culmination of many factors, from our agriculture practices to our outdated recycling, and just how God damn many people there are (every continent BTW).
It’s interesting to look at the solution in the same light. It’s not just about throwing up a windmill, we have to use sustainable transportation (who doesn’t wish they rode a horse to work?), solar panels, eat sustainably and not live in a world with Wal-Mart. Most of all what’s going to stop a super progressive warming trend is peoples ability to sacrifice. We have to realize how much shit we just don’t need.
To date, there is no climate tracking model that charts all of the known factors of climate change. I believe they’re too busy contradicting or disagreeing with one another. I’m not prone to dogmatism tho, have no fear.
So, you show me a system that can graph all the positive and negative factors causing climate change, and I’ll be content.
Let’s just say architecture wasn’t as romantic as I had hoped. Unfortunately it was the architects themselves that soured things. I still practice, as a hobby more than work, designing homes is what I do best.
Knight on a Damsel. Now that I like!
RSVPs
: Biscuit
Biscuit (06/12, 5:05PM), I’m beginng to like you more and more each day. Soon I’m going to recommend that you go to the head of the class.
: Knight under a Damsel (5:21PM)
When you ask for a system that can graph all the positive and negative factors causing climate change I assume you’re not asking me, not only because I have none but also because I believe none exists. Climate modellers have difficulty predicing next week’s weather, forget about the next century’s climate.
Climate change is not my favourite subject – in fact I find it rather boring – but I checked my card index file to see if I had read any others taking issue with the warmist zealots. (I read about 50 books a year.) Entry #22 for 2010 shows George Monbiot’s “Bring On The Apocalypse” (2008) but that’s about it. Of course, I agree with your views about restricting (minimizing? eliminating?) our out of control consumption of the earth’s bounty but such agreement does not spring from any global warming zealotry.
You said that archtecture is more a hobby than a career. Does tht mean you do not have a B. Arch? What about your B.E.? Is that the foundation for your current work?
Nice talking.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
You’re right, I wasn’t asking you to produce that model. It’s possibly impossible.
No I do not have my B.Arch, unfortunately. I have an Engineering Technicians degree from College which allows me to do the structural work for homes, and sometimes small commercial buildings depending on their size and complexity. I also studied Architectural Engineering and Building Sciences. If things get too serious or complicated I need a P.Eng. to stamp my drawings (this only ever happens with commercial buildings). Every now and then I’ll design a renovation or addition for someone, if I’m lucky I’ll get to do a whole house form the ground up (this is my passion, and I have many ongoing personal projects). None of the work I do requires a professional Architect, in fact, except for large commercial jobs Architects are almost obsolete (and boy do they hate that!). The reason I do so well is my experience with several Architecture Firms around the city as well as a healthy bout of Civil Engineering I did for DND, through SNC Lavalin.
The best part was working for Dal. They were churning out classes of Architects every year, yet they would keep coming back to me with jobs instead of doing things internally. Odd, to say the least.