This is a bitch for every person out there. Well that is every person that calls into any service centre and treats that person like shit. I am sorry your life sucks and your spouse is leaving you because you are a complete bitch/asshole. Just remember, the people that you are treating this way have your personal information in front of them. You are probably too dumb to realize this but you will pay for your actions someday. On top of that, you are going to hell if there is one for treating strangers that way, especially because every customer service rep is a saint. —Go to Hell
This article appears in Apr 28 – May 4, 2011.
lolwhut?
hint, do not ever, get a job as a tech person, or a service call center sucker.
Typical call center slave bitch. Get a fucking education and a real job.
Another day at the Phone Farm…….and you have the nerve to say the callers have lives which suck……look around you and realize where you are working……..now, try and get the image of the bridge out of your head.
omg you guys are bad.. Call centres are a great way to gain experience and build a resume. It’s one of the only opportunities around these parts for those of us that can’t/choose not to fork over thousands for education or training. My 2nd job was at a shitty ass call centre named synovate that was in that office building on the corner of Robie and Quinpool. I was fresh out of high school. It was doin market research surveys. Yeah, I was that guy, and yes it did suck.
I transferred to their Montreal location and then found a telemarketing job up there which allowed me to afford my own place about 10 minutes from Downtown MTL. A year or so later after I moved back to NS I worked at Convergys for about 8 months and then Register.com for about a year. Yes, both less than awesome jobs. But because of that experience I now work a very comfortable, relatively well paying office job, great hours, weekends off, great benefits, tuition reimbursement and tons of opportunity. I’m a payroll specialist.
Because I stuck with those shitty jobs I now make more money than many of my friends who took trades or university. I also have steady work where a lot of my tradesmen friends are constantly laid off. I also don’t have the pleasure of making student loan payments for the rest of my young life. I work side by side with people with degrees. I make more money than some of them. Granted, I’m bilingual but still, I parlayed a shitty market research into what I consider a great job for someone with my background. I’m one of if not the youngest person in my office or 200 people or so.
Hang in there OP. Being able to take shit from assholes for long periods of time looks good on a resume and builds character. I think it helped me with my hot temper.
I work a part time, second job at a call centre. And you know what? It’s Not That Bad. Sure, some of the people who call can be unpleasant. They have a problem, and they want someone to fix it. It may seem trivial to us, but it’s important to them. A little compassion goes a long way, both in diffusing a difficult call, and in reducing your own stress. When a caller starts out yelling at me, I understand that they’re not yelling at ME, they’re just yelling. It’s not personal. I just let them get it off their chest, and then I try to help them.
And you people hating on call centre workers should be aware of a couple of points. First, the majority of call centre agents are university students. Telling them to “get an education and a real job” is just silly. Second, these people provide YOU with a service. 20 years ago, if there was an error on your phone bill, you had to physically haul your ass down to the MT&T office, during business hours, and stand in line for 30 minutes to get your problem solved. You may consider the job beneath you, but that doesn’t mean the job has no value. Think about the guy that picks up your garbage. You may look down on him, but if it wasn’t for the work he does, you’d have to haul your own garbage to the dump yourself
Boy someone thinks their shit don’t stink.
Tommy having a call centre on your resume is like having McDonald’s on your resume. They both indicate you’ll work for peanuts but at least McDonald’s have a university.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.as…
Tim you don’t seem like a big fan of thomas. Actually your not a big fan of any of us. Lol.
I think anyone who works any job and contributes to society instead of feeding off our tax dollars is on the right track.
It’s the french that really gives you the edge. If you have French, you’ll be able to name your ticket.
HAY! TIM LIKES PK!
lol my post is proof that you are wrong bro tim. There are entry level call centre positions that can lead to great opportunities if you stick with them. I believe I’m proof of that. I’m not rich by any means but I have my independence, a couple nice toys and a great work life balance. And I don’t have a mountain of student debt. Yes Bro, I’m proud of that. Don’t see how that makes me someone who thinks their shit doesn’t stink. Did I mention that my job pays for Canadian Payroll Association certifications that I can also turn into even more opportunities? I have a good job that I would have never gotten had I not been able to tough out shitty jobs such as convergys and synovate. I also made quick stops at minacs and teletech along the way. Very short stops. Can I ask what your problem is Bro?
If you don’t mind me asking, and you can totally tell me to go fuck myself, but what’s the salary range for a payroll specialist?
I’m in the HR bizz myself (employee relations) and have always wondered what the payroll side brings in.
Seriously, you can tell me to go fuck myself for asking this because it’s kind of a bold/inopportune question.
I agree with you OP, I’ve worked service and had to answer phones and sometimes people just yell at you and it sucks. I had one guy call in who just started ranting and raving for ten minutes straight about something one of “our employees” did only to hang up on me after I informed him that he called the wrong organization after accusing me of lying.
You have to get good at disconnecting from the conversation when someone is being an asshole and try to figure out what it is they want and whether or not you are able to help them. Unfortunately, most people don’t want anything and there’s nothing you can do to satisfy them or make then calm down, they just want to yell at someone, anyone.
Here’s a thought, how about instead of calling a random service worker and making their day shitty why not just write a bitch about it!
mmm, it depends. There are many different jobs within payroll. I don’t actually DO the payroll, I support it. It’s my job to be able to explain to people how amounts are calculated and how the system works. I don’t know how it compares to HR work. I’m on salary but also can log overtime, I get 3 weeks paid vacation per year plus a week of floaters. My base salary when I started was 35k, it goes up every year and I get a generous performance bonus every year. Like I say I’m not rich but I feel more successful than many of my peers, some of whom still live with their parents, some of whom have paid to go to school and can’t find work. And I did it on my own terms, by myself. That’s always been what drives me, I don’t think I should have to invest thousands of dollars and years of my time just to get ahead. That’s what we hip hoppers call “hustlin backwards”. Not knocking education at ALL, but it’s without a doubt not for everyone and plenty people have worked their way up the corporate ladder without a degree. They started at shitty entry level jobs that any asshole off the street can get, the difference is they didn’t give up when it got tough. Plenty of people have also invested a shit ton of time and money in education and have nothing to show for it but a piece of paper and great big pile of debt.
These aren’t opinions, these are facts.
Again, like with the concert bitch, you can’t tell me otherwise because I’ve seen it and done it. Where are you supposed to get work experience but at an entry level job? Everyone wants experience, so you go work at a place like convergys or teletech for a while till you have some real experience and then all the sudden surprise more doors open for you. If you think you’re in a dead end job, you are. It’s all attitude and planning.
Or you could go to university and try that route. Either way is tough, both ways have their pros and cons, I’m just sick of ppls telling me “if you want to find work, don’t go to university.” That’d be fine if it didn’t cost so much bloody money and take you out of the work force for years at a time. That doesn’t sound like getting ahead to me. When you take into account the fact that I don’t have a huge loan payment to make every month in addition to regular life expenses. I think I’m at least on par with someone making 40 or 50k a year who has that student loan to pay off. And I’m 24 in June. That’s how I look at it.
Again, I’m not saying that education is for suckers, just saying there are other ways to succeed in life, and if they don’t work out they don’t leave you thousands in the hole. I’d like to go to university or college maybe one day, I’d like to be able to pay my own way through it. I took Audio Engineering when I was 18 at Centre for Arts n Technology, BIG MISTAKE. Most of the 13 or so guys in my class are making less money than me. The course cost like 24 grand. Good investment? I think not. This isn’t meant to be an example for all education opportunities. You wanna take nursing you’re guaranteed a pretty well paying job. This was just my experience.
I was fortunate enough that I didn’t have to take a student loan, my grandparents and parents had been putting aside money for me to go to school. It really makes me sick when I think about how little all that money that they saved all those years for accomplished. I’m very interested in Audio, but I think I can make more money doing other things. So I’m gonna make my money, THEN pursue my interests. Not too many people can do both at once, unfortunately, and that is the dream that higher education sells. There, you got the info you wanted PK but you had to bear another TommyJules rant.
Ah, everyone’s not gonna like everyone, RC. Me n Tim had it out a few days ago over vigilante justice and police brutality, quite polarizing topics. We probably wouldn’t get along too well in person, that’s ok though. I’m sure neither of us expect everyone to like us.
call centers are okay, if you don’t get rerouted to india or some other country, for something that can be taken care of locally. case in point, 2 years ago, had problem with wireless router, call 800 number, guess where call went, korea.
what the fuck is up with that. you mean people here don’t know the nswers to my questions? or is it because these other people work dirt fucking cheap. if you can understand some of them, then you really get lucky. 45 minutes later, i ripped the thing out, threw in garbage, and went and bought a new one. i hate outsourcing. and if you got something over yonder, do they call canada to deal with it, bet fucking not.
LOL it’s ok, tommy.
35k is about average for a professional degree to start around here, realistically. Though, I know business students who have such big heads when they graduate that they expect to have CEO offers thrown at them.
Silly c-unts.
I’m kind of surprised at how many Bitchers I’ve come to genuinely like, Tommy. I enjoy reading your stuff, even if I don’t always agree with it. And I like Bro Tim and Suckulous for a whole bunch of reasons. Your debate with Tim was interesting because you were both arguing from very strong positions of personal experience and knowledge. Hell, I’ve even come to like bitchers that I’ve gone toe to toe with. Whatever my objectives when I started bitching last year I’ve definitely changed from interacting with various people here.
And the folks I’ve actually met are amazingly cool folks.
Now I’ve got to go gargle with bleach to get the taste of Dr. Phil vomitus out of my mouth.
Bleeech!. >; )
NAMES, IVAN. WE WANT NAMES!
Yeah I hear you Ivan. I gain a lot of respect for some people, even if they go against everything I stand for, if they intelligently explain their point of view. I’m a very liberal progressive guy and I don’t tend to agree with the typical conservative mantra that I hear. But I understand that we all have different perspectives and values and so on. I really stated enjoying my life a lot more though when I stopped trying to be liked and like everyone a few years ago. It’s good to be disliked by some and it’s good to dislike ppls, so long as you acknowledge their right to exist. I’m sure Bro’s not a bad guy, I kind of took out my frustrations on his whole generation/political party on him during our argument. I defend my opinions and stances so I’d expect everyone to do the same and have respect for those that do so without making it personal.
God damn I can’t seem to post anything that takes less than a couple mins to read. I like to make sure I dead any counter arguments before they happen so I give a broad approach to my assessments. But yes Ivan, I have no doubt that these people are really cool. They certainly seem it, for the most part.
As our Paingirl would say “We ♥ Words.”( Mouse ears, Ass-cone, LessThanThree or ; )
EDUCATION vs TRAINING
“So I’m gonna make money, THEN pursue my interests. Not too many people can do both at once, unfortunately, and that is the dream that Higher Education sells.”
(Tommy Jules, April 28, 3:04PM)
As Montrealman has constantly pointed out, education should not be confused with training. The first furnishes the mind, the latter the bank account. As such, there are two fundamental difficulties with Tommy Jules’ account:
(1) His goal is simply to initially make money and then to pursue his “interests.” The first goal, by definition, precludes a genuine interest in education properly understood. Simple monetary acquisitiveness is totally inconsistent with “furnishing the mind.” More than that, making money as one’s goal tends to continue to be one’s goal.
The second goal, that of pursuing his “interests,” turns on just what those “interests” might be. By the sound of it – I could be wrong – Tommy’s “interests” do not seem to relate to furnishing the mind either. (Does Tommy intend to pursue philosophy, for example?) So both of his goals are irrelevant to education. Tommy in interested in training and training is obtained at trade schools, not university. This leads to the second confusion.
(2) Tommy claims that the dream that Higher Education “sells” is to combine making money with pursuing one’s interests. But “Higher Education” – one assumes Tommy is talking about university here – “sells” no such dream. Rather, it is Tommy who, given his materialistic/pragmatic presuppositions, THINKS that is the dream that University “sells.” He has confounded education with training and demands, as a consequence, that university must have a monetary “pay off.” Tommy’s devotion to the monetary nexus is obviously complete. He belongs in trade school.
Of course, Tommy is not to be rebuked for his materialistic/pragmatic presuppositions since they embody our culture’s prevailing “climate of opinion.” However, that does not make them right or even correct.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
P.S. Pretty Kitty (3:16PM), herself given over to the forces of materialism and pragmatism, speaks of the income for one starting a “professional degree.” At the university level such a “professional degree” means training after the Bachelor’s level, i.e., an M.D. in Medicine or an L.L.B. in Law. But perhaps Pretty Kitty is using the term in a metaphorical manner as in the case of a B.Comm. which is really just another training diploma.
Right! exactly PK, so that helps make my point. They make the same amount of money I’m making starting out but they had to spend a ton of money and study and give away their ability to work full time for 2-4 years. Not to mention their job is probably a lot harder and more stressful than mine. In the long run they may very well be better off than me financially, but that’s ok with me because I’d rather enjoy myself while I’m young. I can’t live the broke student lifestyle, I just can’t. I’m used to having money in my pocket and freedom to do what I want when I want. I’m gonna try my hardest not to get anyone pregnant, as long as I do that, I should be fine.
People who want to raise a family need to be shooting for those 100k a year and up jobs AT LEAST, shit ain’t cheap these days. I’ve pretty much decided that’s not what I want in life, of course that can all change if I happen to meet someone and fall in love with them tomorrow, or next week. I’ll keep you posted. For right now a family/settling down is not on my list of priorities at all. I’m actively avoiding it actually. My outlook on marriage is similar to my outlook on higher education. It ain’t for everyone and if it doesn’t work out it usually sucks big time. I like the young professional bachelor lifestyle, and I believe I can turn it into success and dollars and cents if I apply myself. I don’t like the idea of walking into an institution and saying “Here’s my money, make me smart.” They can’t teach me anything I can’t learn on my own, and there’s a few things, to say the least, that you can learn in the real world that you can’t learn in a classroom. That’s another reason I want to leave Halifax cuz most of the ppls my age are students and it’s hard to have stuff in common with them when most of them look at you like you’re from another planet when you tell them you chose not to pursue a post secondary education and join the work force right away. For many of them it seems like they believe it’s the only way to go, and they look down on those of us who know otherwise.
Most High schoolers aren’t being exposed to other options, in my experience.
Geeze smeghead, “Tommy is not to be rebuked”, of course not…he’s right and you’re wrong….again 🙂
Why don’t you address the non-relationship of education and ability.
So annie, get a book published yet? Time’s running out :O
I think it’s funny the way annie uses “pragmatism” as a dirty word.
Actually my first paragraph was for the OB, not Tommy. The OB says we have your info and can use it (in a tone that appears to say we’ll cause you problems), and ends it with “especially because every customer service rep is a saint.” Anyone who says that thinks their shit don’t stink.
My point with Tommy is that a resume from McDonalds is equal to a call centre both being service centered jobs, dealing with crap for low wages. Tommy has stuck with it and has gotten promoted as would anyone working for McDs (and remember it is a huge corporation). Which is pretty par for course with any company – start at the bottom and work your way up.
I actually enjoyed my debate with Tommy and hemade many valid points and we departed with I hope that both sides have a lot of work ahead of them. And the best part was no personal insults were used.
Nice post Montrealman. I pretty much agree. The only problem I have is that if you say University should not be looked at as a way to start making money, why the f should it cost so much damn money up front and years which could have been spent making money?
Many uni students go on to be teachers, as do their students. That seems a little odd and backwards to me . If the only job I can get with an English degree is an English teacher, what’s the point? If we stopped studying and teaching English at a post secondary level these people’s degrees would be useless. It’s an expensive cycle. I didn’t put that as well as I could have I just don’t know quite exactly the words to use to make that point. Do you see what I’m trying to say? If we’re just spitting out generation after generation of teachers, what’s the point? What are they actually teaching? Not job skills.
In France, for example, if you do well enough in school university is free. If you don’t you can’t go. That makes sense to me. What can I learn at university that should cost me 20 grand plus? For that price I wanna know the meaning of life.
It teaches you work ethic and dedication, for example how to meet deadlines and stand behind your work, things you can learn without university. All the actual academia can be found in books and on the internet. Like I said, I can’t learn anything in university that I can’t learn for cheaper elsewhere.
My Audio Engineering experience for example cost me 24 g’s. I could have a pretty fuckin nice studio for that amount, and could have just bought the books and the software that they taught me on. Most people in that field don’t go to school. They go out and make it happen on their own. All we did in most of the classes were copy notes directly from the book. The rest of the time was spent in labs on less than current computers in dingy rooms that were damn near impossible to get any work done in. My peers shared the same frustrations.
Technical arts schools like the Centre are SCAMS and sell dreams to young, ambitious kids who want to do what they love for a living. Then they dump them into an over flooded industry where jobs are scarce. For the amount of money some people make in a year. They don’t even throw in a computer or a piece of software. On top of the 24 g’s u basically have to buy your own mac computer, preferably a pro, (about 2 grand) and about a thousand bucks worth of software if you want to be able to do your homework/assignments. Anyone on this board who is considering pursuing a career in film, music, animation, don’t do it around here. If you’re gonna go to a school go to the best damn school you can possibly find. I dont care if you have to go to mars. Do a ton of research, talk to grads, students. It’s all yes yes yes yes yes till they have your money then it’s no no no no no. I reccomend spending the money on the gear and books instead, if you’re serious about it you can succeed.
I have a philosophy. It doesn’t matter how intelligent you are and how much knowledge you have. If you can’t make yourself happy and successful, you’re pretty much stupid. The broke dude with a phD is an idiot. yeah, I said it. If you can’t turn your knowledge into dollars, you’re doing something wrong. Taking care of yourself, making sound investments, protecting them, and making sure you have a roof over your head is the most basic of things.
There are a lot of intelligent idiots out there as far as I’m concerned.
So answer me that Montrealman, why should anyone spend that many years and dollars on something that is not designed to make money? To be smart? Doesn’t sound like a smart thing to do. That ain’t my definition of an investment. Not a good one, anyway.
“Back to school and I hate it there I hate it there,
Everything I want I gotta wait a year, wait a year,
This dude graduated at the top of my class!
Went to cheesecakes he was out motherfuckin waiter there”
-Kanye West – School Spirit
Shit, I had a whole post typed out and forgot to press the submit button before I left work.
Basically, MM, I agree 100% with your post.
careful tommy don’t get too close http://ramparts360.files.wordpress.com/201…
Good to hear Bro Tim,
I can’t lie I was really riled up, that shit stuck with me throughout the day. I lost my cool a bit. You’re right I didn’t insult you. I only opined that you “sounded” like a typical PC d-bag, but let’s not bring up the past.
Oh GOD, tommy, don’t let ANYTHING that’s said on here rile you up. Or affect you in any way irl!
tommy and you’re a bleeding heart liberal but that doesn’t mean we can’t get along. Hell I even talk to Rick Howe and in person at that.
We can be the Felix Unger and Oscar Madison of the board.
Oh yeah guys – this has hilarious mid-season replacement sitcom written all over it.
Rawk!
…can one of you be a ninja – cuz that’d be hella kule.
K Tx.
it’s gotta be better than this one, tho i like linda http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1875432_f520.jpg
She does seem to get some sucky parts
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48064…
then again…
http://www.blackfilm.com/i3/movies/t/thein…
MONEY LOVE
“Nice post Montrealman. I pretty much agree. The only problem I have is that if you say University should not be looked at as a way to start making money, why the f should it cost so much damn money up front and years which could have been spent making money?” (Tommy Jules, 9:55PM)
Tommy, you don’t happen to see a little logical inconsistency here, do you? If you “pretty much agree” with what I said – i.e., that University should not be looked at as a way to start making money – then why do you deplore the fact that it costs “so much damn money up front” and years which, undoubtedly, “could have been spent making money?” In other words, Tommy, you cannot simultaneously pretty much agree with what I said, on the one hand, and maintain your profound love for money on the other. A course in elementary logic might have helped you, Tommy. Well, so much for money. What about jobs?
You write, “If the only job I can get with an English degree is an English teacher, what’s the point?” Well, of course for you Tommy, since the point is always about money, there is no point but others might say that the job as an English teacher has enormous point. The English teacher opens the minds of her students to a world of meaning and beauty. We live in a world of language, Tommy – our minds are constituted by it – and the English teacher serves as the one who introduces her students to that mind-constituting world. But I realize that for you, Tommy, there is no point. That is because you are immersed in money-love.
“The broke dude with a phd is an idiot. Yeah, I said it. If you can’t turn your knowledge into dollars, you’re doing something wrong.” Well, I won’t go on. We get the idea, but Tommy, if you studied English, particularly Amertican literature of the early 20th century, you would realize that exactly the sentiments such as these were voiced by people with a world-view such as yours. They were called, among other things, the “Robber Barons.” You’ll find their descendants today among the Wall Street rapists, Tommy. They’re your sort of people.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
P.S. Stunningly, Pretty Kitty has written, “Basically, MM, I agree 100% with your post.” This shook Montrealman more than anything Tommy said. A new light has been cast upon Pretty Kitty – and it looks good!
this is a good duster
http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cac…
MM, correct me if I’m wrong. The english prof gets paid a handsome salary. She’s a capitalist just like me. I have a great handle on the English and French languages, I read a lot. I educate myself with different perspectives accross the board. I don’t need to pay tousands for an English degree and neither does anyone else.I’m not a complete money grubber, if I was really all about money I’d be selling drugs or something, but yes I am a capitalist because you kinda gotta be in this world.
If it’s not about money than why does it/should it cost such a great amount of money? I love knowledge, I just don’t think it can be bought. Again, answer me this. What can a prof teach me that I can’t learn on my own for free? What I ask you.
MM — I had quite a lengthy post written up in response including my experiences in both an ‘academic’ discipline and a ‘training’ discipline and how those in the ‘training’ discipline floundered in a course who’s prof taught it ‘academically’ (philosophy/rhetoric) because they had no idea how to “learn” ‘academically.’ I on the other hand did quite well (best in the class with an A+ and the praise from the prof who was the most brilliant academic I have ever met) because I had a background in an academic field.
So, I completely understand and agree with what you said.
I agree that you souldn’t get a degree because you want to make money, I just don’t think it should cost so much. I don’t get how he finds my train of thought illogical. The university is a business whose ultimate purpose is to make money and build their portfolio. I feel that they rip a lot of people off, you can’t put a price on knowledge, but you can put a price on a viable skill that can make money. No amount of knowledge to me is worth that much money. Not the knowledge alone, which is all some students end up having to show for it.
MONEY LOVE (II)
(1) “Again, answer me this. What can a prof teach me that I can’t learn on my own for free? What I ask you?” (Tommy Jules, Ap. 28, 9:51 PM)
Judging by your comment Tommy, probably nothing. However, the reason has nothing to with money but rather with your consciousness which is structured according to the principles of money love. I could have replied saying something like providing structure and perspective, insight, opportunities for dialogue, understanding and so on, but given the structure of your consciousness you would simply be gobsmacked, regarding these aspects of learning and teaching with incredulity. This is because, in addition to everything else relating to education, your concepts of learning and teaching are themselves corrupted by your consciousness-structuring principles of money love. (Perhaps Pretty Kitty woud like to add something on her experiences distinguishing academic from training teaching.)
(2) “I don’t get how he finds my train of thought illogical. The university is a business whose ultimate purpose is to make money.” (Tommy Jules, Ap. 29, 12:58AM)
Tommy, your “train of thought” issues from the nature of your consciousness which, as has been pointed out, has been structured by the principles of money love. Initially, your illogicality goes back to the first sentence of your first post (Ap 28, 9:55PM) where you said that you “pretty much agree” with my views which, of course, are diametrically opposed to yours. That is being illogical Tommy. In this case however your view of the ultimate purpose of the university renders any such “train of thought” on matters of education not so much illogical as completely irrelevant. In other words, Tommy, your money-love consciousness has rendered any coherent discussion of the nature and purpose of the university beside the point, or “otiose” as they say in academe.
(3) “No amount of knowledge to me is worth that much money. Not the knowledge alone, which is all some students end up having to show for it. (Ibid.)
Tommy, your statement is incoherent and it is incoherent for the same reasons found above. But let’s play the game. Can you provide us with a set of conversion tables rating (a) amount of knowledge with (b) amount of money? Do different kinds of knowledge count more than others? Is inflation taken into accoiunt? Moreover, to speak of “amount of knowledge” bespeaks a distortion of the concept of knowledge itself. How does one measure knowledge, Tommy? By weight? By the yard? Further, when you speak of “knowledge alone” you reveal a conflation of knowledge and “skills” which takes us back to my original distinction between education and training. We mustn’t go in circles, Tommy.
I have no problem with your money love Tommy, but I do have a problem when you want to import your money-love consciousness into the realm of education. It doesn’t belong there, Tommy.
Do not corrupt education.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
How does one measure knowledge? By the degree of course. That’s how we as a society evaluate someone’s knowledge and abilities, by the peice of paper hanging in their home or office.
I’m not the one who is “import(ing) your money-love consciousness into the realm of education.” The universities are. The whole education system is for profit. All your criticisms can also be applied to the very system you are defending. I’m no worse or better than they are, we’re all chasing the same buck.
I value education I just believe that it shouldn’t be so financially difficult to attain. People are profiting from your tuition, but you aren’t necessarily.
How’s a young kid from a poor family supposed to set a goal of going to college when he knows his family can’t afford it anyways? Even if he gets a scholarship. This, in my opinion is a big reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Higher education just isn’t a realistic goal for huge segments of our population.
The for profit post secondary system is just as evil and corrupt as Wall street. I believe that when something gets privatized the quality suffers and it becomes all about the bottom line.
So, again, while I agree with you that the purpose of university is not just to be able to get a good job and make lots of money, I believe that it should cost a lot less, especially for a a bach. degree that really only qualifies you for another degree.
I have respect and admiration for those who want to be educated, it’s just not the route that I think makes the most sense to me personally.
I’m not all about money it’s just that making big loan payments really does suck and can constrict the quality of your life. All because you wanted to go pay to learn something that you could have learned for free or much cheaper. If you can’t measure knowledge by the yard as you put it, how can you measure its worth in dollars?
“I have no problem with your money love Tommy, but I do have a problem when you want to import your money-love consciousness into the realm of education. It doesn’t belong there, Tommy.”
My point exactly!!
And Bro, you’re absolutely right, political views shouldn’t get in the way of two people being able to respect or like/tolerate each other. Look forward to our next debate.
PK, it had me riled up because it was a subject that was close to my heart, the murder of one of my peers (he wasn’t my close friend but I knew him well enough to know he was a great guy, and many of my close friends grew up with him.) and the justice system’s inability to take his killer, who has a 8 foot long rap sheet, off the streets.
I agree with pregnant chick, where she says anyone contributing is better than the welfare bums.
But I still don’t believe anyone working anywhere deserves to be screamed/yelled at or abused verbally by a complaintant with problem(s) that you the employee are there to try and rectify.
In a perfect world More, no one would ever have to take the fall for someone other people’s mistakes, but hey, if the job wasn’t stressful it wouldn’t pay as well. Working in payroll I constantly am taking heat for mistakes made by someone else. I don’t input the info I just receive it, so calling up and yelling at me and asking “why is my pay short?” and saying “payroll screwed up” and blah blah after ignorant blah is utterly pointless. People do it though, and I was advised in the interview that I’d be dealing with irate callers on a regular basis. You know what you’re signing up for when you go into customer, or in my case employee, services.
-yelling at me and asking “why is my pay short?”- are you frikin serious?
Advice (military) from my father: Never ever, piss off the cooks, pay-writers, or supply techs. You want them to be your friends.
Sage advice, works in the real world too.
In my experience pissing off the cook(s) or the people in payroll is just like self mutilation.
All you end up doing is hurting yourself.
tommyjules…just because you were warned it may happen, IMO doesn’t make it right & those who call you should be reminded that you are there to help them & didn’t cause the problem.
MONEY LOVE (IV)
“I have respect and admiration for those who want to be educated, it’s just not the route that I think makes the most sense to me personally.” (Ap 29, 12:18PM)
But will those who want to be educated have respect and admiration for you, Tommy? Or will they think that you’re just interested in taking the “money route?” Mun mun, Tommy. Mun mun.
“If you can’t measure knowledge by the yard as you put it, how can you measure its worth in dollars?” (Ibid.)
Tommy, I think you’re catching on.
Re: The poor kid gets a scholarship. “This, in my opinion is a big reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.” (Ap. 29, 12:28PM))
Read that over again Tommy. Maybe you should take a course in Political Science.
Re: in response to my assertion that Tommy’s money love consciousness should not be imported into the realm of education because it doesn’t belong there, Tommy replies: “My point exactly!” (Ap. 29, 12:34PM)
Then what are we talking about Tommy?
“Hey Bro, political views shouldn’t get in the way of two people being able to respect or like/tolerate each other.” (Ibid.)
Shoudn’t that be “philosophical views” Tommy? Anyway Bro, maybe before our “next debate” you might think of taking a course or two in coherent/logical thinking. See you then, Tommy.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Oooh Tommy, I didn’t know that. Still, what people say on here… don’t take it seriously though because the internet does allow for a certain amount of dickery.
FUUUCK!!!
Must be contagious, PK, I had a huge long post written that I was quite proud of!! and I forgot to save it before I had to restart my computer. Fuck. I’ma attempt to re-create it.
First of all the Bro I was referring to was Bro Tim, not you, MM. Think what you will of my capitalist outlooks but PLEASE don’t imagine me as someone who calls people Bro.
I guess we just don’t understand each other.
Your argument lacks logic to me. It would make sense if it weren’t for the fact that university costs a lot of money, an amount the most of us can’t afford and that many of us can barely afford.
The university sells a product at profit and students buy it. They are a business just like any other, their purpose is to generate revenue.
I find it difficult to understand how you can’t apply the same criticisms you’ve thrown at me to the post secondary education system we have in this country.
“will those who want to be educated have respect and admiration for you, Tommy? Or will they think that you’re just interested in taking the “money route?” Mun mun, Tommy. Mun mun.”
They should respect other people’s life choices. Especially if university education is supposed to make people so open minded and what not, as you expressed. If they were open minded they’d respect and admire anyone who tries to get ahead in life the best way they see fit. (within reason, and the law, obviously) Many students I’ve encountered seem to think that their way is the only way. Not what I consider to be open minded.
“money love consciousness should not be imported into the realm of education because it doesn’t belong there”
This is why I believe for profit education is backwards and wrong.
I love expanding my wealth of knowledge, I just don’t think that knowledge can be bought or sold. It can be attained many ways, some choose to pay an institution to employ a professor to explain and explore various concepts to/with them. Some choose to learn on their own.
I refuse to believe that someone with a bach English degree is somehow smarter, more enlightened or better than me. Or that they are of more value to society.
It comes down to personal choice. Some people go to school and do quite well for themselves and some end up regretting their choice to pursue higher education because it didn’t get them anywhere. I’m sure they’d sell the knowledge back at this point if they could.
They bought into a concept and it ended up being a bad investment, much like people who bought into Enron, for example.
Are you paying all that tuition so you can sit around the dinner table or online on a msg board and have deep, intelligent conversations? I can do that with my high school diploma and my healthy thirst for knowledge. What justifies spending all that money?
Are you telling me that if you guaranteed an English student that their tuition was not going to make them any richer in the long run that they would continue to go?
You’re telling me that uni students don’t want that dream job of theirs? A job in their field of interest? This is what I mean by pursuing your interests and making money at the same time. Of course that’s why they’re there. They’ve bought the dream.
How much emptier would all the campuses across the world be, if we told the students that the thousands of dollars they’re investing has at best a 50/50 chance of making them more financially stable.
Fuck I wish I didn’t have to paraphrase, man I was on a roll.. fuck.
MM, perhaps you have not been enlightened but brainwashed. You are saying to the education system “here’s my money, I know I might not get it back, ever, but that’s ok because you’ll make me such a brighter, more enlightened, open minded person”
Sounds like a loyal employee to me.
FUCK that lost post might have been my best yet, you’ll have to take my word for it.
My point is that education shouldn’t have to cost so damn much, especially if these institutions are going to make the argument that education shouldn’t be looked at as a way to make money, or even increase your chances of doing so.
It’s a two way street.
Intelligence also goes to where your at and what you do. For example the difference between school smarts and street smarts. One could have all the advanced degrees they want but it would do them little good in a crimeridden inner ghetto (and we have none of those here, you’d have to go to NYC, Chicago, LA, etc for real ones)just as an undereducated person would be completely lost, and if both were stuck in a jungle, neither would have little chance of survival. As we said in the military “Intelligence is a trade not a prerequisite”. Bottom line, getting a university education makes you no better than the next person.
Is university education expensive? Well it depends on where you go.
Law degree:
Dal $9,166/yr
McGill $7,348/yr
U of T $7,693/yr
U of Alta $5,735/yr
UBC $10,135/yr
Yale $50,275/yr
Harvard $43,848/yr
These figures are 2010-2011 and is for tuition ONLY (books, fees, accomodations etc NOT included).
MONEY LOVE (V)
“Think what you will of my capitalist outlooks but PLEASE don’t imagine me as someone who calls people Bro.” (Tommy Jules, Ap 29, 6:11PM)
Hey, Tommy, are you knocking my old friend Dim Bro Tim?
“My point is that education shouldn’t have to cost so damn much, especially if these institutions are going to make the argument that education shouldn’t be looked at as a way to make money, or even increase your chances of doing so.” (Ibid.)
Tommy, we have a number of confusions here:
(1) I don’t think that you’ll ever find the statement “Education shouldn’t be looked at as a way to make money or even increase your chances of doing so” on any university prospectus. Like administrators elsewhere, university administrators may be slow but they’re not that stupid. Being in administration is tautologically related to money love. (A “tautology,” Tommy, is a assertion in which the “definiendum,” say a “bachelor,” is logically contained in the “definiens,” the definition, here “an unmarried man.” So, to say “A bachelor is an unmarried man” is tautological since that is what it MEANS to be a bachelor. In the same way, the assertion, “An administrator’s consciousness is constituted by money love” is a tautology since that is what it MEANS to be an administrator. You’ll find that most dictionary definitions are tautologies, Tommy.)
(2) Tommy, your premiss (education shoulddn’t have to cost so damn much) and your conclusion (education shouldn’t be looked at as a way to make money) are not related. In other words, since your conclusion bears no relation to your premise, you have committed an unforgiveable logical solecism. Further, the term “shouldn’t” is normative – i.e., a recommendation or a command – and not empirical – an assertion of fact. No logical conclusions can be drawn from normative assertions, Tommy. It’s back to philosophy class with you!
(3) Most importantly Tommy, is the philosophical point that you and I are talking about two different things. Your assertions are based upon empirical fact, i.e, university education is expensive. But I never disputed that fact, Tommy. My assertions were not empirical but were rather conceptual, i.e., that your consciousness is constituted on materialist/pragmatist grounds, what I have, in the present context, called “money love.” As the old saying goes, Tommy, we are as “two ships passing in the night.”
: To Dim Bro Tim: “As we said in the military ‘Intelligence is a trade, not a prerequisite.'”
You got that one right, Dim Bro.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
lol so I should go study philosphy so I can make more logical arguments that you can better understand?
Whatever MM, you’re just like the rest of these pompous “I’m ever so much more educated than you and therefore above you” snobs. This city is crawling with them.
How about a little math. If $20 000 + 4 years in the prime of your life = bachelors degree and bachelors degree = likely not so great real life opportunities, then I conclude that bachelor degree = waste of time and money.
My argument might not make sense to you, but to many people who live in the real world and don’t have a money tree anywhere on their property, going to university just doesn’t make sense.
Your whole premise is totally self-serving. Life I said to Bro Tim during our debate, it’s easy to win an argument when you dance around or dodge the tough questions.
You are regurgitating philo 101 text books instead of having a conversation like a normal person. I really do feel like “educated” people come off as brainwashed much of the time.
Nothing personal, MM.
I’ll admit one thing though. My part in the past post about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer kind of defeats my whole argument that education doesn’t necessarily make you rich.
However, one should take into account that those of us who have to pay our own way if they want to be educated have a great disadvantage over kids who’ve had RESP’s waiting for them since before they were born.
In other words it makes more sense for people who come from money (as I’m 100% positive MM does) to pursue higher education. That’s why they get confused when you tell them there are other ways to get the most out of life.
you are a very thoughtful person thomas
Bro — thing about law school is, it’s hard as fuck to get into some law schools based on a variety of factors. If you’re a resident of NS, it’s easier to get into dal than it would be U of T or McGill (and quebec schools teach a different type of law so you can’t automatically practice in other provinces) if your marks aren’t super awesome, but you do well on the LSAT, or vice verse. So, one might have no choice but to pay the higher tuition.
MONEY LOVE (VI)
Tommy was really getting to work on me there, calling me a “snob,” saying my premise is “self-serving” and that since I’m just regurgitating Philosophy 101 I can’t have a conversation like a “normal person.” I was getting worried there. But then Tommy said, “Nothing personal MM.” Whew! That was a relief!
Anyway, let’s have a look at a couple Tommy’s main points:
“You’re just like the rest of these ‘I’m ever so much more educated than you are and therefore above you’ snobs.” (Tommyjules, Ap. 30, 5:14PM)
I was worried about that Tommy. Previously your money-love consciousness was restricted to just that, money, but now I see it has slopped over into your social views. You have conflated “more educated” with “being a snob” but, as I’ve pointed out before Tommy, there is no causal connection between the two. Your assertion is called a “non-sequitur,” Tommy, meaning your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise. One can be “more educated” yet not be a “snob.” So there’s a large logical problem there Tommy. A little philosophy would help.
As I also explained before Tommy, we are coming at the issue from different perspectives (I called them “ships in the night” in my last post). You are coming from a “first-order” empirical perspective, i.e., one involving a descriptive account of phenomena as they exist in the world whereas I am coming from a “second-order” conceptual perspective, i.e., one involving an explanatory account of the cognitive frameworks through which such first-order phenomena are perceived. (Some call it “higher-order thinking” Tommy, that is, thinking about thinking.) I dubbed your cognitive perspective “money-love” to indicate the prism through which you perceive reality which, it appears, is not just money but about social reality itself. Anyway, to those at the first-order the phrasing of the comments of those at the second-order might sound snobbish, Tommy, but they are not. They are simply, well, of a higher order.
: For those “who don’t have a money tree anywhere on their property, going to university just doesn’t make sense.” (Ibid.)
This may be true Tommy, but it was never my point. My point is as it always was – that the cognitive framework of money-love should not be imported into education. It’s a philosophical argument Tommy, not an economical one.
: My premise is “totally self-serving” because I’m “dancing around or dodging the tough questions.” (Ibid.)
Well, Tommy, it all depends upon how one defines “the tough questions.” As I pointed out above, your definition springs from your cognitive perspective, i.e., a first-order empirical viewpoint, one involving a descriptive account of phenomena as they exist in the world, whereas I’m coming from another perspective (see above, Tommy). So our definitions of what constitutes a “tough question” will therefore necessarily differ.
: Montrealman is just “regurgitating Philosophy 101 instead of having a conversation like a normal person.” (Ibid.)
Tommy, if you can sign up for a class in Philosophy 101 that imparts philosophical jewels like I’m doing here, sign up for it immediately. Anyway, Tommy, the question – I hope you’re beginning to get the drift – turns on just how one is to conceive of a “normal person.” Your conception, Tommy, predictably flows from your background world-view, i.e., one of money-love and not from “Philosophy 101.” But, thank God Tommy, that is not the only perspective of what const itutes a “normal person.” I’m up for having a “conversation” as well, Tommy, but it has to contain at least a scintilla of intellectual nourishment. Do you agree with that, Tommy? Wouldn’t that be called “normal” as well?
Oh yes, in spite of the fact that you are “100% positive” that I “come from money” (Ap. 30, 5:21PM) that is not the case. True, I have no heroic stories of overcoming grinding poverty, but I don’t “come from money.” As with everything else, it all depends on what you mean by “coming from money.” It is true that I have met socially and indeed have been childhood friends with those that really do “come from money” but it is not the case with me. In any event Tommy, it’s not about the money, it’s about the mind.
A pleasure as always.
Cheerio!
Jesus f’ing christ dude… what’s the point?
I never said that all educated people are snobs, just people like you who say I should go study philosophy in order to be able to argue with someone as “enlighted” as you. As if my lack of formal philosophical education makes me somehow less able to make valid points.
I asked some valid questions, such as “do you believe that most students aren’t in it for their dream job?” And “Are you telling me that if you guaranteed an English student that their tuition was not going to make them any richer in the long run that they would continue to go?” and you didn’t acknowledge them. That’s what I call ducking or dodging.
People go to school to have better chances of making money or they wouldn’t invest so much time and money into it. If you think that’s not true then you’re lying to yourself. If you think it’s not right, that’s fine, but it is a reality. I agree with you that that shouldn’t be the main goal of it, but when it costs so much it kind of has to be, that’s why the same points you make about my money loving ways can be applied to the post secondary system.
I assumed you came from money because you talk about it as if it’s not important.
No one spends 20+ grand just to be enlightened, if that’s all they wanted they would go to a bookstore, library or one of the millions of websites where they can learn the same things they teach at university in the Philo classes that probably cost you thousands. They do it in the hopes that it will help them gain their financial independence WHILE enlightening them and expanding their minds. You’ve been arguing with yourself and it’s tiresome, and to me, you come off as a big time snob.
You’re no better than someone who brags about how much more money and material things they have than you, or that they can bench press more, a snob. A condescending person. Never have I said to you that my way is better than yours, and to be fair neither have you, but when you imply that my argument is invalid just because it doesn’t fit in with your philosophic views, you come off as a complete fuckwad with his head way up his ass, swearing to god that his shit doesn’t stink. You’re not smarter or better than me no matter what you think, and I’ll be damned if I go and study philosophy just so I can make sense to people like you. Good day.
He’s trolling you, Tommy. There’s a reason noone here really debates with MMan anymore.
He’s. Trolling. You.
🙂
Let it go, dude. You’ll live longer!
WP
lol thanks wheelip. Yeah the guy is obviously impossible to win an argument with. I guess I’m just fresh meat. If he was so goddamn smart he’d learn how to read because that last interpretation of my post was 100% bullshit. He wants to wax poetic instead of trying to answer or even ask important questions. Whatever, he can have fun making those student loan payments till he’s 35 while I enjoy my life, independence and disposable income all before my 24th birthday. Hope those Philo books keep him nice and warm at night, because if he’s this way in real life he is an insufferable bore.
“Tommy, if you can sign up for a class in Philosophy 101 that imparts philosophical jewels like I’m doing here, sign up for it immediately.”
I don’t know whether to laugh or throw up.
Judging from these posts, MM, you have a lot of free time on your hands. Looks like all that wisdom of yours really translated into real-world success.
the monsieur does not want to win, he wants to play
I think he gets paid by the word.
haha, we wouldn’t do well at that bro timothy. our posts are short unless you are giving out law advice^^
Yes, PG but most times we have something to say ad not ramble on ad nauseum about nothing that most people just scroll over as quickly as they can.
we do get to the point…short pointy sticks