I work for a non profit organization. We help people live. Why isn’t there more breaks for us as employees of non profits. We do jobs that int eh “for profit” world would make two, three four times as much as we make now, we pay horrible rape taxes on the pennies we do make, we get no fringey benefits like annual bonus’, company trips, education benefits etc and when we try and work outside the non profit industry w3e are laughed at because all our experience is non-profit. Can’t there be some break for those of us who work our rear ends off helping others? A tax break would be beautiful.. just to recognize that we sacrifice so much financially (basically, I am ruined financially because I spent so much money on university to make this piddly salary). Even if emplyers recognized that the job we do in a non profit is just liek they do in the for profit world in 99 percent of cases…. I have budgets to meet, I have tough business decisions to make and I am accountable for my job.. just like any other job.. but yet I just work for a non-profit, i can’t possibly know about the real business world.
I shoudl just go on welfare.. would make more and have more help.
This article appears in Jul 17-23, 2008.
I think the deeper issue raised by this post is that sometimes that isn’t the only option, or it shouldn’t be. non profit or badly paid fields are important adn often fulfilling- why is the choice poverty or job satisfaction?
My point is why prolong the agony? It’s been my experience that if people are willing to put up with being treated so shabbily, it will not only continue, it will get worse. It’ll only be when enough people refuse to work under such meager circumstances that it will change. Then the powers that be will follow it up with committee after useless tit committee until they decide to hire someone out of province – at three times the salary. Happens all the time.
ok yes, and that is kind of the clarion call for workers revolts and unionisation, isn’t it?I’m not disagreeing with you- as long as people put up with stuff, it will continue. heck, my work finally started to tone down the ridiculous amount of unpaid overtime we all put in because I refused to sign a contract saying I agreed to that- I made a fus, they stuck in a clause that said we’d get time in lieu. lovely. Because I put my foot down, my coworkers are reaping the benefits.the trouble is when dollars get involved. make a stink about salary at a job where it’s perceived to be about more than the cash (as many non profit and public sector jobs are), and you’re seen as greedy and disloyal. it’s murder on the interoffice politcs, and it basically puts a big ‘rocker of the boat’ sign on your back. plus there’s always a line up of eager young things to DO that work for those shitty wages if you refuse, and bosses know that. until we can change that, it won’t change.
TTFN you are wise beyond your jaded and cynical years. I love it. Hedgy, I understand your plight and I sympathize and empathize with it. I am in a similar situation in some ways. I just don’t see how the government can help the situation out and still be fair. The money has to come from the NPO itself, and they have to find a way to justify it to the public, if it is public donations funding salaries. If the Government is funding the salaries through grants or whatever, then I think it is fair to offer higher salaries/stipends through those channels using taxpayer money. I think it is definately a trend among many professional tracks that it is taking longer and longer to make a return on your education investment. I would encourage my children to think careful before going to university. It is overrated and barely increases your chances for fiscal security. If you are smart and motivated, you can find a successful path with minimal post-secondary education.
but what about learning for the sake of it? I keep hearing statements like that miles and I think it’s incredibly sad- we’re losing as a society the desire for a pursuit of knowledge, instead content to only learn enough to make more money…..that wasn’t the point of university, for me at least: I went to university not only for career training, but to learn how to learn, to have my brain opened up to ideas and thoughts and to gain skills in how to acquire knowledge that will hold me in good stead for the rest of my life.otherwise, what are we doing but simply grinding out cogs for a financial machine?I don’t think the government really can do much to change the wage situation, frankly. what needs to change is people’s perception of what work is worth, and what is a reasonable salary. I’ve had higher ups in my own field claim I make more than enough, at just under 20 grand a year before tax, to live comfortably and have a car (a requirement for my job). it just isn’t so, but again, as I’ve said in other threads, it seems older upper management is totally out of touch with the real costs associated with beginning a career these days.sorry guys I’m not being very amusing today am I? again, it’s monday.
Good points, both Miles and Hedgy. You’re right about post-secondary education, Miles. My zygot has opted to do the NSCC route rather than university. The tuition, while still high, isn’t quite as ridiculous as a four year undergrad program. Better my little TTFN becomes an IT specialist and be able to handle the loan rather than go for a B.A. (which I believe still means “Bugger All’, as it did back in the 70s) and have to sell their first born on eBay.Jaded and cynical? You betcha. After 20 years working in government, 15 in the private sector, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it all. I’m still having shock treatments over the shit I don’t want to remember – like the electronic toilet seat scandal of the late 80s.
I know lots of folks doing that TTFN, in fact I know several people who graduated from university with me who are now doing MORE school at colleges etc to get a better job….my point was just when exactly did university style education become so, ahem, obsolete? when did it become so expensive and so impractical (on paper- I learned all sorts of soft skills that while not as easily seen to be job-usefull I rely on every single day and overall make me a better person and employee) that people no longer feel they should or can go?we’re going back to a time when univeristy and higher knowledge was the realm only of the priveleged, while the average people made do with career development courses, leaving higher thinking to those with money. This shouldn’t be allowed to happen. we want to move forward as a society, not backwards, and that is definatly a backwards step.
Why would the government give you a tax break? If you are willing to work for less than you are worth, than it is not the government’s responsibility to compensate you. The satisfaction of knowing you are helping people would presumably be your compensation. The only fair thing I could think of would be to have some flexibility in you student loan repayment schedule, since that is probably the burden that you would have versus other people working jobs for similar or less pay with little to no University training. But I don’t think it is fair for the government to give a tax break because you chose to go to university and then chose to take a job that pays less that your training would dictate. As for the employers not counting your experience with non-profits as valid….I think you are right there, your skills should be recognized as transferrable.
I have to disagree with you Miles. Someone has to work these jobs right? These organizations need people with PR and Commerce degrees just as much as a for profit organization does. The government should cut them some slack in regards to taxes or something for doing a service to their community. Maybe if they did this these not-for-profit organizations would be able to attracted more educated people to help them.
But how would you distinguish between one non-profit sector and another? The tiny fund-raising office for say, the Steak & Kidney Foundation is non-profit and pays diddly-squat. A hospital is also non-profit, but pays rather well. Both help people. Where do you draw the line?I agree with Miles. It’s your choice to accept the low-paying job. If you don’t like it, move to somewhere that you are still helping people while getting paid better.Remember these places only get away with paying so little because the market allows it! Don’t take the job and maybe the salary will be forced upward.
I know lots of people who work in the for-profit sector for less-than-impressive pay, no benefits, no perks, etc.What you’re taking about certainly isn’t limited to non-profits.
I agree with the notion that the government should take an interest in helping non-profit organization do their jobs better, since the efforts of the non-profit are usually complimentary to the government’s agenda anyway. I just don’t think income tax is the place to do it. It wouldn’t be fair to all the other people who work for the same wage (with or without training) and are still stuck paying high taxes. Since the difference between the employees of these NPO’s and other people with the same wage might be the burden of the student loan, that seems a reasonable thing to target, in the interest of fairness. If not a break on the loan repayment, then maybe your income tax could be adjusted based on the value of the loan outstanding, thus giving you a break only while you are carrying the extra burden of the loan. Of course, you would have to do this for everyone with a student loan, which I don’t think is a bad idea either, and another bitch altogether.
I agree Jennie….this isn’t limited to the non-profit sector. I think the problem lies in where we as a society place value on work. LOTS of neccessary fields that keep this country, and society as a whole, running smoothly and in ways we need and enjoy are paid far far less than they should be…look at teachers, journalists, paramedics, whatever. These are neccessary industries BUT the trend in recent years has been pay slashes, downloading of more and more job responsibility, lack of unions, health benefits, or any sort of perk at all…meanwhile, these employees do just what the OP said: bust their ass for very little tangible reward. Now, they do it because they love it and job satisfaction can’t be measured with dollar signs, BUT wouldnt’ it be nice if people could stay in needed jobs they love and still make a living wage?I’ve seen lots of epople I graduated with going into soul sucking career streams for the cash.Hell, I’ve seen tons of people out west opt out of university or college at all in favour of making cold hard cash working the oil rigs. It’s sad and if it keeps happening we’re going to be a poorer society for it.
I agree with you hedgy. I just don’t see what the govenment can practically do about it. The problem is that for-profit companies use those profits to pay their employees competitive wages. The non-profits don’t have that resource, or if they do, you get people complaining that the heads of these NPO’s are squandering your donation dollars on salaries and perks. It’s a tough position. I don’t know how the government can step in and change that, even though, like you said, it may be in all of our best interests to do so.
I don’t think it’s so much goverment as corporate. We simply, as a society, do not place the proper value on these jobs. We’re so enthralled with corporate growth we’ll let them do whatever they ahve to to cut costs and increase profits- that’s nice, but some of it should be shuffled to the workers! and that’s where I’m going to stop before I get into a socialist rant ;)I also think that, in a lot of fields, not just non profits, where job satisfaction or that feeling that you’ve made a difference and you’re somehow fulfilled by your work, employers expect that to be the defining thing, not the salary. In my own field it’s almost subversive to talk about the cash- at least in my office. none of us are here for it, and to discuss you know, wanting a raise to keep up with rising costs of living, seems greedy, and disloyal. That has to change- we seem to have this split whereby you’re either in it for the cash, or you’re not. why can’t I be in it for both?
I would note however that many of these sectors are in fact heavily unionized. I would also note that teachers and medics can make pretty damned good money once they are full time.
yeah Jammie, but how do you get to full time? and how do you get into a union? If you’re young and starting out, which is when a lot of our costs are higher (thanks student loans and debt!), it’s incredibly difficult. A lot of these fields prefer to keep people at part time because it means they don’t have to provide benefits, and union shops, in my experience, are incredibly hard to break into because no one wants to leave once they’re there.I’ve had this rant before so I’ll keep it breif but my point is we are making it, as a society and a corproate environment, incredibly difficult for peopel to get into these fields and stay there long enough to get to these fabled lands of good money and benefits. But we’ve gone all topsy-turvy; some of the lowest paying jobs, to start at least, require some of the most trainign adn eductation, wracking up obscene levels of debt, only to work for no pay (yeah unpaid internships!) or very very bad pay for years. if you can cope through that, great, you may just make it to that great land, maybe- but I’ve seen lots of senior employees still makign shit wages 10, 15 years in.so lots of educated, driven people abandon neccessary careers for cash in the private sector. doesn’t anyone see anythign wrong with that????????
Can’t pretend to know the answers to those questions Hedgy. It was never an issue for me, fortunately…I do work in the public sector but have never been part time, have never been in a union, and have a great salary.
I do hedgy, I do.
P.S. when I finished school, I volunteered to do some work in a particular organization for free. One of my profs pointed me to the project, because the organization had been looking for a student to help,out, but the school year was over.I did the work, and it just so happened a job was posted in that department around the same time. I did not know any of the players previously, and had no connections in Halifax. The job posting was not put up for me, because the people only met me a week before, and it generally takes several weeks for HR to go through all the process to create a new position.I applied, interviewed, and got the job. It was initially a one year temp, but it was full time and I got all the benefits etc. They made it permanent after the one year was over.
yeah sorry, it’s monday and my highly fulfilling, yet excrutiatingly badly paid, job is grating on me after a weekend of ‘sorry can’t’ to pals who make a living wage…le sigh.I think honestly that’s part of why this is stagnating, and there won’t really be change for another couple of decades, when my generation has finally aged into power. right now, lots of people in their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s whatever just don’t realize what it’s like- and no, that’s not just typical mid-20’s alienation riff.I just mean that 10, 15, 20 years ago, things were different. Heck for my parents things were different and they were starting out in the middle of another recession! Things have changed so quickly, it’s hard to explain or comprehend until you’re living it. there’s a different flavour I feel to being broke and starting out now then there was 20 years ago- and that’s because there really isn’t a fabled light at the end of the tunnel. I can look forward to increasing costs of living, downloading of responsibilities making my job harder, while benefits and salaries are slashed and I scramble to secure any sort of permentent or reliable employement. it’s not as easy as turning down a job and hoping the market will respond by raising wages- there is ALWAYS another eager 20 some behind me to take that shitty pay, while I don’t even qualify for EI.there’s something twisted happening when my generation has gotten nicknamed the boomerang generation, as so many of us end up living with our parents again and starting careers, just to get us through that first 10 years of bad pay.
sorry I’ve sort of hijacked the thread………
For the record Hedgy despite my good luck in getting good well-paying jobs, I was saddled with huge debt after getting the three degrees it takes to get a frickin job in the crazily overeducated market. Even after working 10 years now, I still find myself very frequently saying “sorry, can’t”. I do feel some of your pain.
yeah I’m not trying to be antagonistic Jammie- I’m just having a melancholy morning/first year out of university you know?there’s something weird about all that though- I mean, what happened to the ability to work hard, get paid accordingly, and advance? when did that go away?
I truly believe that heavy unionization has seriously affected that old ethic. I also think the workforce in this tiny province is oversaturated with too many people with too many credentials. I also think we have a huge bump in the population pyramid that is the Baby Boom generation, and they are not ready to go away and free up those management jobs just yet. Us Gen X, Gen Y, and Millennial kids are gonna have to wait!
Get use to it Hedgy. I’m not much older than you and it took me 3 years after graduating to get the job I’m at now, which is a permanent full time job. Before that I could only find contract work and was registered at every temp agency around here. It’s very discouraging trying to find work as a young person around here only to turn around and have them say, well, you don’t have 10 years experience. Well duh! How am I suppose to get that if you won’t frickin’ higher me.Even the job I work now isn’t a fabulously paying job (although it’s the best paid one I’ve had since finishing school). I’ve recently decided that Halifax isn’t the place for me to start my life and I am trying to head west to get the start I need and hopefully come back here one day and be able to live comfortably. What I’m saying is, I feel your pain like you wouldn’t believe.
I think this was already debated in another thread a while back, BUT I do agree with you that unions did change things, however I think their time might be coming back. I’m not a fan of militant evil ones (cough cough ontario teachers union cough cough) BUT at least in my field, they do serve a purpose, and I think could really lend a hand to changing the way the system works now.and yeah, I agree- baby boomers are sort of driving me wacky. I’m not saying forced retirement, but….
West isnt’ always that much better yourmom- I tried it and actually just wrote about that in another thread……..gee Im having a bitch tastic morning ;)but thanks. I feel all warm and fuzzy now haha 😉
Now I’m feeling very emo. Thanks for ruining my Monday Hedgey!
you’re welcome- what’s the point of being melancholy if you can’t bring others down with you?now miles, want to go battle some goth kids with me?
ps check out http://www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com for a giggle- they’re actually talking about unpaid internships today so…..
I now officially appear to have taken over this board this morning…curses.slinks off to her troll cave…..
Thump yourself over the head with a rubber chicken, OP, you made a baaaaddddddd choice. Only one solution – get out of non-profit Dodge.
LOL TTFN….you mean the Turbo-John!!!!???I actaully saw one of those when i was in NYC recently (functional, at the toilet by the public library) and I remembered it from the news when I was a kid. I just HAD to try it out. And hedgy, I am a huge fan of learning for the sake of it, I just think it is not for everyone, and that some people would be happier and better off with less training, getting a decent paying job at a 9-5 so they can come home and spend their free time and decent pay on things they enjoy. I don’t regret my decision to go to university, but I have lots of friends that are burdened by the debt of a university education and are working a job they don’t want to pay it off.
You hit the nail right on the noggin, hedgy. Money trumps aptitude and dedication everytime. What it’ll mean down the road are subpar doctors and lawyers who’ll thrive despite their shortcomings while the rest of us suffer from their stupidity. Meanwhile, the truly talented who can’t afford an education will be wrapping a drool bib around my withered old turkey neck in the nursing home and earning minimum wage. Fuck, that sucks.
Turbo-John – Jesus, what a fucking legacy Buchanan tried to leave us. I always suspected it was an idea born of too many lobsters and beer at the Shore Club. Buchanan was infamous for his eat-and-drink-til-you-puke parties.
ok someone needs to explain this turbo john thing to me (I was born in 85 so I guess I missed it)
I tried to find a picture, but to no avail. It is a toilet seat that is covered in a tube of cling wrap and when you are done, it automatically reels in the stuff you were sitting on and replaces it with fresh plastic. I forget what the controversy was over the seats when John B was premier though…i was pretty young at the time. He probably just spent lots of money on a dumb idea.
For anyone interested:http://www.hygolet.com/usa/
Fuck, you guys, I have shoes older than you. Still, it’s much more fun flappin’ the fingers with you young’ins than some of the tunnel-visioned old farts my age.