After reading in a national newspaper about a trend in ‘fetal reductions’ performed on mothers carrying twins who don’t want the ‘inconvenience’ of having two babies, I have to wonder, how do you ever justify to your child choosing to kill his or her twin sister or brother? How would that make someone feel? Knowing their parents chose to terminate their sibling for convenience’s sake, when it could just have easily been their life that was discarded. Grieving for one’s terminated twin and the life that should have been. Terminating a fetus for convenience just seems wrong. —Hell In A Handbasket
This article appears in Dec 16-22, 2010.
…and if you thought the Winter Parking Ban thread got ugly…?
‘FELIZ NAVIDAD , FELIZ NAVIDAD – PROSPERO ANO y FELICIDAD”
Everybody – Sing
Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear…
“Iiii’m dreaming… of a whiiiiiite… chriistmas! Just like the ones I used to know…”
“How would that make someone feel?”
I’m guessing lucky!
50/50 aren’t the best odds to go in with.
“Mother pleads guilty to disposing of her baby in Richmond dumpster”
Richmond News December 14, 2010
Read more: http://www.richmond-news.com/Mother+pleads…
This isn’t the first time this has happened in Canada either!
Blaming a couple for terminating a pregnancy, whether it’s a single fetus, twins, triplets, or a litter of 8 is the couple’s decision. But waiting until the baby is born and throwing it in the trash is a worse action.
I agree. What a hideous thing to do. Although I’m definetly not crazy about the idea of havings twins, I could never bring myself to do that
My brothers has twins, my grandmother had twins and there was always that chance that I could have twins. It’s really hard work….and I was petrified to go to the doctors and hear 2 heart beats….but there’s no way in a million years I could make that difficult decision of not keeping both. I feel very badly for the parents who have made that decision. I agree everyone has the right to choose….but in the circumstance of terminating one of 2 seems wrong in my heart….but I would never judge someone.
“The city’s full of manger scenes, And stores lit up in red and green. But down the road just out of town There’s more magic to be found.
The countryside is all a-glow With holly trees and mistletoe”.
if you didnt want to have them in the first place then why would you have sex you moron like killing one of them for YOUR MISTAKE i mean common how selfish can you get that little baby boy or girl didnt do anything wrong and shouldnt deserve that! i dont care what anyone else says its just like murdering your own child and you will live with that guilt for the rest of your life and you know that just as well as i do so dont act stupid
I’m wondering why someone may not choose to give birth to both and then give one up for adoption? I don’t know a whole lot about the land of babies/pregnancy, so I’m not sure why that wouldn’t be a viable option for people that would have a hard time taking care of two.
Either way, this is pretty sad that this is happening.
Yeah I’m very pro-choice but I think in this situation it would be more ethical to give one up for adoption instead of outright aborting it. There’s also the possibility of the abortion going wrong and both fetuses end up aborted (though I’m not really sure what the chances of that happening would be).
Curb your emotions, you crazies. One kid is trouble enough, even if planned for. Two is an enormous physical, emotional and financial strain. It’s not like these mothers are waiting until they’re born and handing one off to the butcher.
This certainly throws a new twist in the abortion debates.
Is it the same? a totally different case? Oh boy.
Thing *is* when you have sex, there’s SOME chance of getting pregnant and there’s SOME chance that that pregnancy is going to be a multiple. If you can’t deal with that possibility then don’t have sex! Or think about options such as adoption. Abortions out of convenience because of irresponsibility just plain suck. I respect people’s right to do so, but they still suck.
So, I’m not buying your argument Qubit.
I won’t even bother to comment on this, as there are way too many thin lines between what’s right and wrong, both legally and morally. Is it the Mom’s decision… is it up to both? Is it something the parents can live with following the birth and thereafter? Are they taking into consideration the potential emotional impact this could have on the surviving twin? There just doesn’t exist straight answers.
I found out a few years back that my birth mother had a baby girl less than a year after I was born that died when she was only a few days old. Weird how something that never impacted you before can leave a strange emptiness in one’s soul. I can’t even imagine how a twin would feel upon one day finding out their parents made the decision to only have one by terminating the other. Obviously people would HAVE to consider all possibilities when getting pregnant… while having unprotected sex even. There is always the risk of a multiple birth pregnancy. While it’s true that infants born of multiple baby pregnancies run more of a risk of health issues, where can we really stop at intervening with this natural process for the “supposed” betterment of the child? These kinds of discussions always arise when talking about such choices. I expect to see well over a hundred posts for this topic….. quite a few of them mine.
That said- not too shabby for someone who proclaimed he wouldn’t even comment on this, wha?
All right, PK. You enjoy carrying and birthing multiples if and when it happens to you. Fact is- there’s nothing wrong with early abortions, and it’s the safest way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. The fact that accidents happen is no reason to abstain from sex for your entire life. This unnecessary sentimentality is the problem, not nipping the biological equivalent of a mole.
I felt that same strange emptiness, jonnoman, when I learned as an adult from a ‘well-intentioned’ relative about an older half-sibling who was placed for adoption. Besides grieving the lost relationship with a sib, my birthplace in the family suddenly shifted. I can’t imagine how I’d feel about my parents and my life after finding out that my twin had been targeted as disposable and thusly terminated.
But many families, while shocked at first end up being very grateful for their children. I have a close friend of mine who had twins 10 months ago and is over the moon with her two girls. It’s a lot of work, she was terrified, but it wasn’t the end of the world. Also, a co-worker is currently expecting twins. Seriously, it’s probably LESS complicated to have 2 at once as it is to have them 5 years apart. At least they’re off to school at the same time.
I try not to have broad stance on these issues because it’s soooo situational. Life is precious. Abortions SHOULDN’T be used a birth control. But I agree with a woman’s/man’s right to choose too. I’m just sad that the majority of people out there don’t make informed decisions or completely understand the long term repercussions.
As jonno said, sometimes it’s years before it’s felt… and might be a strain on the baby who lived.
But I would fight for your right to choose, even if I would probably never abort myself.
So Qubit… you are quite obviously someone who figures anything goes for now- deal with the consequences when they incur.
To quote you, “The fact that accidents happen is no reason to abstain from sex for your entire life.”
Would this be something you’d include in a waiver to have any of your sex partners sign prior to a date of any kind, whether it be planned or the product of a drunken night at the Dome…..??? It’s like-minded people like YOU that cause me to pity the world my children and my childrens’ children will have to populate after my generation are gone. I do apologize, however, if you are simply referring to the tiny margin of error in effectiveness that condoms have….. but something tells me you’re simply a shoot and point type of individual. Just don’t expect me to show up for the benefit dance you’ll have to eventually plan for yourself to cover the cost of all those abortions.
When unattended moles develop into a human beings, Qubit, your stupid arguement will have some merit. I read this article in the G & M and it was about couples who choose to become pregnant but don’t want the inconvenience of two children.
I accept your apology, Jonnoman, because that is what I’m referring to. I’m not a sex fiend- I have specifically refrained from drunken hookups throughout my twenties BECAUSE I don’t want to risk impregnating someone, BECAUSE I would accept the woman’s choice, no matter what she decided. And I would shovel human excrement for a pittance to support my kids, if it came to that.
Strangely, the one time I got someone pregnant- two levels of protection were in play. Shit happens.
For my part, I would LOVE to raise twins. Seriously. But I won’t condemn any woman who chooses not to. She doesn’t need to tell her one child, that wouldn’t accomplish anything.
Irrational sentimentality is the issue here. Everyone’s ready to condemn the women OB mentions without understanding their situation.
It’s ok, jonnoman, Qubit sounds quite immature. Way too immature to be having sex, to be honest.
Biologically, sex is for procreation and while there are methods to stop that, nothing’s fool proof, and not being prepared to deal with those complications is reason enough to abstain from sex.
I’m pro choice, don’t get me wrong, but where I draw the line is using abortion because a kid isn’t “convenient” for you. If kids aren’t convenient and you don’t like the option of adoption, then don’t have sex. Stick to oral and manual stimulation.
Like I said, Kitty. Have fun when your number’s up and you’ve got some inconvenience clinging to your walls.
Well, I don’t see having kids as an inconvenience so I guess I will have fun 😉
Also, the fact that “sex is for procreation” is a ridiculous argument. We reject the biological reason for things that our bodies do on a daily basis in the interests of pleasure, aesthetics, etc. Ever shaved? And yes, I will equate an unwanted 8-week zygote with unwanted facial or body hair.
Kitty, if you’re in such a position right now that you could be surprised with a pregnancy, and carry it to term, and raise your child in a responsible manner, then power to you. Not every woman is in your position. Take a look at the state of our orphanages and the number of people adopting within Canada, and tell me that adoption is the better option. Bull. Shit.
Last time I checked, there were other ways to have sex besides the act that results in the production of another human being if that is not the desired reult.
And again, a new moral/social dilemma is now raised by you Qubit. Unfortunately such a discussion is prone to neverending branches of these questions. Because all it takes to conceive a child is two people, each with working (and I use the term rather loosely) brains and equally functioning sex organs. If you live where I live you see countless examples SUPPORTING mandatory castration for some…….
It’s a vicious circle and unfortunately we see the evidence that lack of education spawns (pardon the pun) many more accidental pregnancies amongst the “underprivileged” population than those who actually have the brains and the support to experience such a “mistake”……
From what I know of her, I am pretty sure Kitty would have the web of support and certainly the intelligence to be able to deal with such an occurrence. I am assuming she also takes the necessary precautions to ensure it doesn’t happen. In the scenario you raise, “new Q of the Coast…”, that’s where the whole discussion of morality becomes as cloudy as a Spring day day in Scotland. But the whole premise of this discussion is the morality of the decision to terminate PART of a pregnancy just because one didn’t like the cards they were dealt…….. That to me is independent of the general argument involving abortion in the first place…….
humanity is a viral plague… destroying everything in its path.
is there not some extreme extremist out there with the balls to blow this stupid co2 covered pile of shit straight to smithereens?
I agree it does sound awful but why would you ever have to justify it to the living twin ? Why would the parents ever even bring it up? Unless they decided to go rooting through archives at the library one day. But other then that the other twin would probably never know the difference.
And the Number One Christmas Video this year is Bing Crosby/zZz singing “Little Drummer Boy/Peace On Earth” *narf*
Hey — I don’t think sex is just for procreation, but at its core that’s what it’s for and the only 100% foolproof form of birth control is abstaining from sex. S’all I”m saying.
And hate to say it but most people want to adopt babies — that’s why there’s SUCH a long wait to adopt an infant, especially a newborn. It’s the older kids who don’t get adopted. And afaik, we don’t have orphanages anymore so much as a foster care system. Not saying that’s all sunshine and cupcakes, but you have to look at adoption stats and break it down into age categories. I think you’ll see that infants from healthy parents have a pretty decent rate.
And what jonno said in his last comment.
Also: you’re awfully gloom and doom these days, z3 :S
Kirbul, in real life there is always the very real possibility that some in-the-know well-meaning individual other than the parents will inform said ‘twin’ about the other. The fear of this may even prompt one or both parents to admit the truth. Life isn’t scripted.
personally o.p., i don’t understand how the hell these people could even think about doing something like that. it must take one coldhearted motherfucker to make that decision. i know that if i was a female, faced with this, i would rather give one or both up for adoption.
with my own twist…. I’ll take the bowie role…
“pieces of earth… can it be….
years from now, perhaps we’ll see….
we’ll see a day of glory….
we’ll see a day when men of good will die in peace… die in peace again…”
I FECKIN’ LOVE IT! >: )
I would imagine that aborting one baby would be necessary. As in it wouldn’t be done because “oh you could have complications” but because both the babies are at serious risk.
Sex isn’t for for procreation anymore … it just isn’t. It’s recently that we’ve been separated from that biological side. Ever taken the pill … well that’s separation of biology. Should I not buy a car for fear of accident … no, but I should take all the proper precautions to avoid such an event. Take the classes, buy insurance, put on snow tires … I see babies as no different. If you can’t buy the snow tires for the car or afford payments then you should take the bus … but that’s harder said than done.
Ughh
I have a hard time believing ‘fetal reductions’ are a significant trend.
Which national newspaper?
I can see several reasons for ‘fetal reductions’. Severe defects, mothers health is at risk, no way all the embryos will make it. So then you abort the weakest 🙁
Abortion as birth control, and for elective reasons, is wrong.
I’ve said it before, abortions should be done in such a way that the embryo can be harvested for medical use.
i googled it farmer, i don’t read this paper. i’m a mop and pail gal
sorry
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/When+twin…
OB I agree, choosing one is wrong, if you’re going in for an abortion…abort all of them .
there problem solved.
NEXT !
Question for anyone who is saying that sex produces children therefore you shouldn’t have sex if you can’t handle the kids…or that there are other things to do besides intercourse.
I am in a long term relationship and neither of us want children…EVER! If I got pregnant it would be aborted without hesitation so should I never be allowed to have intercourse for the rest of my life?
Just in case you’re wondering…that is not going to work for me. Intercourse is one of my favouritest things.
devil_girl, one of my good friends knew in her early 20’s she wasn’t the maternal type, her tubal ligation was successful at preventing pregnancy until menopause interrupted the reproductive phase. Tubal ligation and vasectomy might be good choices for couple not interested in ever becoming parents.
Thanks pain-sis for being quick with the link. May I also point out that for some reason my fingers typed G& M when I actually meant NP…ooops.
/snip
the big v or the hard candy newt?
I haven’t looked that much into tubal ligation, however if it’s a procedure requiring anaesthetic I may not be able to do it anyway.
I did offer to get my partner a vasectomy one christmas but he’s resistant to say the least which is why our agreement is that if he won’t get the vasectomy than all of the costs for birth control and (god forbid) an abortion fall on his shoulders. I think he’s playing a waiting game and hoping for menopause (he’ll regret that wish once it starts, I’m sure) 🙂
I’ll be 40 soon…I’m hoping I’m getting past my child bearing years but every time I say I might be too old to have kids soon someone tells me about their 55 year old pregnant aunt or something.
It’s actually kind of a non issue for us, in the 15 years we’ve been together I only had one scare which was really only being a week late – possibly flu related since I was pretty sick at the time. We don’t think about the possibility of pregnancy very often since we do use birth control however I have had people say directly to us that if we don’t want kids than we shouldn’t have sex which I think is kind of rude.
I think if we actually had a big scare where I actually took a pregnancy test (never done it and hope I never do) he might think more about a vasectomy but I can understand why he doesn’t want an operation…even a relatively simple one since our methods seem to be working so far.
I just like the sound it makes. /snip
Preferably the one that hurts less and works better, paingirl.
paingirl,
Thanks for the link.
I still don’t know how common this is in Canada. They quote an American OB-GYN who estimates these make up 4% – 7% of reductions, which I take to mean 4% – 7% of procedures to reduce multiple births for medical reasons, not 4% – 7% of all abortions.
I find the whole abortion debate very challenging and absolutist positions seem to lead to absurd results. If never allowed, then a 12 year old rape victim is forced to give birth – a double violation. If always allowed, then it becomes simply birth control and we are supposed to accept that until the moment of birth, a fetus is ‘just tissue’. I fall somewhere in between these extremes, but my own position doesn’t rest on very solid ground.
I’d hate to have to decide for everyone else.
devil_girl,
The vasectomy operation is as simple and as near painless as an operation can be, far simpler than a tubal ligation for a woman. I was in and out in ten minutes. Sure, my voice is a few octaves higher now, but that helps me sing the soprano parts written for ‘castrati’. Seriously, there is no noticeable difference with respect to sexual function and . . . uh . . . ‘output’ to put it bluntly. But I admit it was an easy decision for me because I am already a father and don’t forsee wanting any more children. Might be different if I had never had any.
I wonder if the couple didn’t consider adoption as an option.
“… we shouldn’t have sex which I think is kind of rude.” … … …
“… it would be aborted without hesitation”
Yup, I support your decision to not become a mother.
Oh trust me Donk…I am not mother material. My time and money is happily spent on whatever I want. I’m much too selfish to have children. If I’m near children for any length of time I just can’t imagine having one in my own home (shudder)
Luckily I haven’t had to go down the road of abortion but instead of waiting until there’s a crisis to make that decision I find it wiser to have my decision made when I’m level headed.
Just waiting patiently now to be just too old to have kids.
Simple. Don’t tell your kid. Lying to kids is an important part of raising them.
that’s why i used to have all kinds of fun devil_girl, i was fixed years ago, and no worries of bringing any more into the world. all the navy wives used to love me, literally. but of late, the old boy hasn’t seen a lot of action, damn it.
the big v is definitely less painful newt
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yeiwBjhM8UU/TE-V…
Qubit, kirbul, sodeypop. There is no way a kid would make into adulthood without finding out that their sibling(s) was aborted. A slip of the tongue, a vague reference, or what’s said in the heat of an argument.
I can hear it now, “I should have aborted you instead.” Take it from there.
Hugo..that’s awful but so true. Some secrets should be kept, but they never truly stay hidden. Because there’s always assholes out there who love to gossip and point fingers….as long as the catty bitches are pointing fingers at you no one’s talking about their skeletons. I have a whole family full of ex-in-laws who love to talk about other people.
“There is no way a kid would make into adulthood without finding out that their sibling(s) was aborted.”
It’s not like they’re going to stumble upon an abortion scrap book. The lie will just take a bit more effort than the santa claus or jesus shenanigans.
The omission of truth, is a lie.
Are you actually suggesting that it’s ok for parents to lie to their children for their entire lives?
That would mean that the childs life is a lie.
Gross.
Full disclosure: I would _never_, myself, have an abortion. I am pro-choice as a general principle, but cannot see any circumstance under which a fetal reduction can be justified when either terminating the entire pregnancy or keeping all the fetuses as long as possible are also options.
It is the kind of secret that cannot be kept, unless the mother tells absolutely nobody – ever – about it. The stress of keeping that kind of secret from the child you chose to keep, as well as the emotional fallout that will arise if you fail to keep that secret, may likely cripple you emotionally. If it doesn’t fill you with guilt or fear or sadness, one may wonder about your fitness for parenthood to begin with.
Forget your financial fitness for parenthood – no matter what your situation, understand that any parent worth their kids will do anything to keep them safe and healthy and happy. I would gladly starve to keep a bite in my kid’s mouth. If you feel that you genuinely cannot afford twins, to the point at which you would choose between them, you probably should not even consider a single baby.
I couldn’t do it. It’s either terminate the pregnancy or have both. I couldn’t live with myself, knowing I had somehow killed their twin (shudder). Twins run in my family also and I haven’t met a set, I haven’t liked.
I prefer to follow Ivan on this one. Thanks, Ivan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihW56Xa3XGQ
You’re very welcome Puss. And for those dog lovers/military history buffs out there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RKHq5b3oLI…
excellent commander. that brought back memories, many things rolled into one video^^
PNB, I hope you didn’t change your avatar on account of me, I was just poking.
my brother and my cousins and me listened to “snoopy and the red baron” for hours on a machine similar to this http://www.ilike.org.uk/images/Portable4-m…
Pokin’ right back at you, HD.
Ivan it brings back memories for me too, I had a couple of little critters called snoopy:)
Purrrrr!!!
That’s how doppelgangers are made. 😛
I don’t think its entirely wrong, when the mother is making a choice based on weather or not she thinks she can take care of two kids.. I call that a person who knows their limits and doesn’t try to push them for the sake of others.. Think about it this way, what if someone had two kids, and then for their entire lives they suck for both of them because their parents made the choice of attempting to support more then they could.
What’s with the spams tonight?
it happens every year, they’re all over the coast…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
yay for some Python to kick off the vacation right. Mornin’ painey!
mornin ralmn. the python is always lurking “he likes to push the pramalot” the boy comes home this afternoon^^
That’s wonderful pg, it’s been a long time coming. Is he home until after new years?
I’m back in NB for the holidays, so I know just how great it feels to be surrounded by family this time of year. 🙂
I’m stuck here until Friday. >.> Though at least I’ll be keeping busy.
I can honestly say I’ve never seen an episode of Monty Python….but I remember it in the background growing up.
Good morning Miss Pain…hope your all set for Christmas!!
Orgas-Bren…Hopefully the week goes quick for the both of us.
Ralmn…good thing you left for NB already…were getting a bad storm today.
5 more sleeps bitchers!!!
Well it’s certianly not off to a great start. *grumblegrumble*
Woohoo! Bet the wee one is getting pumped, eh, RC?
I’m bummed about the storm and wishing it was snow instead of rain! Going to get my run in now before it hits…
he is here for seven days, hoping the weather behaves until his flight gets in
I think the build up has been going on for so long that he dosen’t think Christmas is really ever going to get here.
Also I don’t have him for Christmas morning this year – I’ll get him around 11am from his dad – it’s only fair to share I guess…
Whats up Org-bren? It’s Monday…Mondays are never great.
Nothing in particular really. I think I’m just not wanting to work this week.
Ivan, that’s loosely based on the Christmas Truce of 1914 where both the allies and Germans played soccer, traded souviners, tokk the dead and wounded out of No Man’s Land, etc. Needless to say general officers on both sides were pissed off with this.
Right you are Ossifer Bro. There’s a beautiful folk song called “Christmas in the Trenches” by John McCutcheon (John McDermott’s version is also nice) and two excellent books “The Christmas Truce ” by Malcolm Brown and “Silent Night” by Stanley Weintraub that deal with the subject.
It only happened on a wide scale that first year of the war. The generals got their way.
Rawking big Screeee for Painey whose Christmas present comes early today.
Happy vacation-sis Ralmn. I’m getting as excited as RC’s little guy Whooo-Hooo.
And Bendorgasm, let’s start seeing some Christmas spirit from you or Santa won’t bring you that Illudium Q-36 Space Modulator you’ve asked for >; )
thanks commander. i’m watching a christmas carol at the shoppe, b&w of course. how is freedom feeling?
I’m more or less in the spirit I’m just somewhat freaking out at the amount of stuff I have to do before I leave. Plus there’s work stress as well.
Would feel a tad better if I didn’t get a little whammed watching “Celebrity Rehab” last night. That Innis & Dunn was niiiiiice. Rawk.
Got most of SOBova’s big gifts bought, now it’s the last minute impulse stuff which is loads more fun.
I can dig it Brendon. I’ve got a fair bit of housework to do but I’m more interested in sniffing glue and tormenting the cat. >; )
Bahaha… Ivan, that’s EXACTLY what I’m doing today. Heh heh… kitteh didn’t enjoy the ride home last night, but he’s feeling better today, so I’ll torment him properly 🙂
Tomorrow is my baking day! And I’m hosting a party tomorrow night, it’ll be a hottenanay!
my baking has come to end, for the time being. we cleaned the whole house yesterday and now i can concentrate on the family. that’s tasty beer ivan and not “lite”
Wooo party! So far I’ve been to two parties: the office party (which was quite fun due to copious amounts of free booze), and a fangroup of sorts party which was alright, but dominated by noisy teenagers. *shakes cane angrily* Wednesday night isn’t really a party per se, but it sort of is as a bunch of people from the group I mentioned will be going to see TROOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNN! (hopefully sans noisy teenagers)
looks like a good flick, the new true grit looks view worthy. i loves me the dusters
am I the only one who missed the new “I spit on your grave” movie coming out???
didn’t even realize…
been on a saw kick lately.
taking notes….