I am looking for day care for when my mat leave ends, and holy shit, it’s unbelievable! Day cares don’t want part-time kids, which is what I need, and top of that, they charge a shit load for your “services.” It doesn’t cost me a grand per month to look after my kid, so why do they need that fee? I thought standard day care was $25.00 per day, not 40, 50, even 60 dollars or more! Day care costs more than mortgages, it’s unbelievable. This costs more than my (and most people I have talked to’s) mortgages! What the hell!? So, I try to suck it up and look for better employment, and that’s not easy, either (but that is a bitch for another day.) How the eff do single income parents afford this? Respect to those who can pay for this! I once read an article nearly a year and a half ago about the cost of child care in this province. This article was explaining the need to need to make child care more affordable, and the possibility of opening ten and seven dollar per day centres, and free sites, where possible. So, where are the affordable child care facilities…..guess we can’t provide those now, we have an unnecessary convention centre to pay for. Man, this province is fucked. —Help Wanted

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93 Comments

  1. True enough, Painey, even in 1993, we were paying $125 a week, $500 a month. In those days, that was a mortgage payment.

  2. when it gets to the point where you are paying more for having the kids in daycare than you make at your job, its time to quit and go on welfare.

  3. THE DAY-CARE SITUATION IN QUEBEC

    Government subsidized $7.00-a-day daycare exists in Quebec but it’s an open system, i.e., regardless what the income of the parent(s) might be the fee is only $7.00 per day. This has led to those making $100,000 and up paying their $7.00-a-day as well as others making much less. This in turn has led to a long waiting list for subsidized day-care places and those who can’t wait pay up to $25 or $30 a day at private day-cares.

    The present debate in Quebec revolves around what seems to be a reasonable solution. While instead of simply placing a ceiling on the incomes of those parents using $7.00 a day-care, those who run the private day- cares (“les guarderies”) want to absorb the waiting list and, in return, have the province fund the subsidized $7.00 fee. The increase in numbers would swell the incomes of the private day-cares and eliminate the waiting list but the government, perhaps fearing a tidal wave of newly subsidized day-cares places, has not yet moved on the issue.

    In addition to purely financial considerations, there does seem to be a social justice reason for subsidizing the private day-cares, well illustrated by the poster’s complaint, one which involves allowing often single mothers to work full-time, pay the $7.00 fee, avoid unemployment and/or welfare, and contribute to the economy. There is also a strong human-dignity element in the issue as well.

    Good luck to “Help Wanted.” It sounds like a nasty bind she’s in.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  4. i had 6 months mat leave in ontario, the bear made more money and had the benefits, so i stayed at home. when we moved here, we worked opposite shifts and with relatives we didn’t need to rely on daycare. we were fortunate

  5. Wait until it’s socialized when it will cost $100+/day because the taxpayer is good for it.

  6. Perhaps doing some research before you had little Johnny probably would have been the route you should have taken. If you can’t afford’em then you shouldn’t have had’em. Having kids is a CHOICE, therefore, you get no sympathy from me. The world is way to overpopulated as it is, what made you think we need another kid? Better start putting about half of your paycheque away so little Johnny can get an education. Wonder what that’s gonna cost in 18 years.

  7. The effect in Nova Scotia of a universalized system such as Quebec’s fixed per diem would depend on policies that are currently in place in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia currently offers subsidized child care rates to families with net incomes below approximately $60,000. Prior to their $5/day policy (now $7), Quebec also offered income-tied child care subsidies. A few labour economists have published some fancy econometric studies showing that the introduction of Quebec’s per diem led to increased the labour supply among high income women rather than low income women. In view of this, and given the similarity of Quebec’s old policy and Nova Scotia’s current policy, I’m not sure that a per diem would improve the tradeoffs faced by low income mothers.

    On another note, I second Stephen Harper. Given the widespread availability of contraceptives and publicly insured abortion clinics, women and their families have more than enough resources at their disposal to delay fertility until they are financially prepared to have children. It is very easy to project your disposable income and assess the likely cost of child bearing, taking into account the tax/transfer programs available in your part of the country. Mothers who complain about the cost of child care are no different from a motorist complaining about the price of gasoline. However, I admit that my perspective on this is narrow because I don’t have children and I take the morally repugnant position of treating children as purely utilitarian objects.

  8. I love my daughter more than life itself, and raising her has been an incredible experience. I always wished I would have had more but I remember, all too well, the struggle to make ends meet. Its unfortunate that the cost of raising children can be the sole determinant of the number of kids a person can have. If childcare wasn’t such a financial burden, coupled with the huge loss of income incurred by taking a maternity leave, I may have been blessed a few more times. I feel your pain, OP.

  9. You are looking for child-care when your mat leave ends? Are you for real? This fact-of-life should be planned like the pregancy (hahaha, like you planned that too)!

    What the fuck did you think was going to happen with your tit-sucker when you returned to work? Have you thought about schools and after-school care? Hell, this is going to surprise you in FIVE years time!

    Have you set up a savings account for education? Full medical benefits for your family (private if not from your employer), dentists, orthodontists, sporting events, insurance, and then there are all the other necessities like food, clothing, and shelter.

    So happy it isn’t me going through this with your lack of reality …… good luck to the child.

  10. Koda kind of has a point… OB why did you put this off until the end of your mat leave??? I’d be scared shitless that I wouldn’t find any spots available for my child let alone how I was going to pay for it. Especially since it’s harder to find spots for children under 18 months.

    And, you do realize that $1000 a month works out to less than minimum wage, right? Assuming your child is there 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (though, realistically, most parents will drop their kid off and pick them up outside of the 9-5 hours, meaning they’re likely there for 9 hours a day, but we’ll go with 8 just for argument’s sake) — $1000/4 (four weeks for the sake of argument) = $250/week. $250/40 hours = $6.25/hour. And I’m pretty sure min wage is up over $10/hr now. And yes, I know a daycare would have many parents paying $1000/month, HOWEVER, they can only take on so many kids at any given age as per licensing regulations. And they have to have a certain number of staff per child ratio. On top of that, there’s the cost of renting the space, or mortgage payments on the facilities (commercial spaces are usually more expensive than residential)… there’s business occupancy taxes, employee benefits… do they feed your kid lunch and provide snacks? There’s that cost too. Do they need to provide supplies (art, equipment, etc…)?

    People who run daycares and people who work at daycares gotta eat too… they have bills just like you do and they even have their own children to look after, so I really don’t think it’s reasonable to be bitching about a service where you’re paying someone less than min wage to perform.

    While I do agree that some government funding would allow parents who can’t afford child care get back into the workforce, but the reality is: NS is deep in debt, running a deficit and just can’t afford it. This province is barely keeping its head above water. And I know I know “well they can throw money at *insert companies in the south shore and cape breton*… yes they have, but that was just dumb, something that they province could not afford and makes it even more unrealistic that the province could afford to subsidize someone’s life choice (because, like it or not, having kids is a choice). They can’t even afford to chop wait times for ankle and foot ortho consults any lower than 10 years at this point.

    And Quebec is a WHOLE other world… the birth rate of quebec is declining and the government is frantically trying to up the number of people having little bebes de quebecois (I butchered that, painy, I know! lol)… so subsidizing daycare is just another incentive program to help the birth rate climb (along with other programs that reduce student debt, etc…). You can’t really compare Quebec to NS because there’s totally different factors in play.

    In any event, I think it was horribly irresponsible for you, OB, to wait until the end of your mat leave to not only price out childcare, but look for childcare at all! Some daycares around HRM have waiting lists for children under 18 months old that extend before the kid’s birth. It’s also ridiculous that you’re complaining about having to pay for a service that charges less than min wage and then expect the government to bail you out. I mean, why do people expect the government to ALWAYS bail them out of situations of their own doing?

    Sounds like you dropped the ball, OB and you refuse to take any responsibility for it. Did you really think reading an article a while ago about the possibility of 7 or 8 dollar a day child care meant it was a certainty and would magically come to fruition when your mat leave was over? Did you magically think that you could even find a spot in the first place at the last minute?

    Sure glad you’re not my mom. (sorry, but you don’t sound like the most responsible parent).

  11. While I sympathize with your struggle, OB, I don’t think government paid childcare is the way to go.
    Taxes are already through the roof. I, as well as millions of others, already pay an arm and a leg in taxes so that your spawn can benefit in this country and province.

    There are plenty of private child care providers that charge around $25/day.

    ” It doesn’t cost me a grand per month to look after my kid, so why do they need that fee?”
    Um, because they are businesses and not charities.

  12. “” It doesn’t cost me a grand per month to look after my kid, so why do they need that fee?”
    Um, because they are businesses and not charities.”

    I missed that part, Naveed.

    I already mentioned why it could possibly cost that for daycares, and you’re 100% right: daycares are not charities. People who work there work for the same reason OB works: to pay the bills and look after their families. Why should they work for slave wages (because oh HAY! they’re already getting less-than minimum wage from each kid) looking after your kid, OB?

    Again, I’m SO glad you’re not my mother…. Who else wouldn’t be totally shocked if OB was related to Survivor? LOLZ.

  13. Edward Jost is one i know that has part time care and they are also non-profit and at the price you’re looking for.

    Also there are a whole host of independant people who take children full and part time at a cost you’re looking for.

  14. One has to wonder where that child support payment is going.
    Ya picked a real winner…

    I know you feel like you’re working just to cover the costs of being able to work…
    but it’s been that way for a while now.
    I had to switch shifts with my manager 7 years ago so he could save one day a week’s worth of child-care costs. This is not new.

    Quebec isn’t even part of Canada so it is totally irrelevant.

    And I don’t even want to know what kind of person would voluntarily watch kids for 8 hours a day for $7. You may as well put your kid in Toothless Joe’s shopping cart full of bottles every day.

  15. makes the costs of ‘the pill’ and condoms look like nothing doesn’t it?
    not to sound like a bitch but don’t have kids if you can’t afford them

  16. How dare you be caught by surprise about the cost of a service you need, OP. Stupid irresponsible bad parent bitch. There, now you don’t have to read any other comments.

  17. IF more women would stay home & take care of the kid’s , there would be more jobs available … so less unemployment
    or
    IF women weren’t breeding with out the prethought of “how the FUCK am I gonna pay to take care of MYSELF & a KID” ! ! !
    perhaps this problem wouldn’t even be a problem !?!
    OF course there is always the wonderful welfare system … that’ll save ya .

    flame away~;p

  18. lol@ “wonderful welfare system”. Because the combined $360 personal allowance for mother and child, and $570 shelter allowance, make for wonderful living standards.

    Say what you want about lazy people and reproductive choices, but the welfare system has to (but won’t) stop applying models of proletariate discipline to single mothers who are toiling away in poverty.

  19. LOL @ the convention centre bit, as if that’s to blame for the fact that OP is having trouble affording being a parent. I guess she thinks our province should invest in more handouts and not jobs.

  20. I don’t think your gouging comment is fair. I have two kids in daycare at the moment, and I pay about $1,500/month to have them in there. I don’t like paying it, but I need them to be in daycare and so I work a lot of extra hours to pay for it. The daycare providers work really hard and are not living lives of luxury off the $35/day they charge per kid. They are helping to prepare my kids for school and give me piece of mind that my kids are in good hands while my wife and I work. They give them good snacks and a good lunch every day, and do arts and crafts with them, etc. It is worth every penny, and I sacrifice a lot to pay that monthly bill, but I’m not a fucking hero, I just do what it takes to provide for my kids because I decided to have them and nobody else is responsible for that.

  21. Amen, Nayer!!!! See, it is possible to be a parent and not be a “where’s my free shit?”, whiney, bitchass .

    When are people going to learn, the roll of government is not to pay for everything you can’t afford?

  22. Steve A lot of people are never going to learn that Welfare isn’t a Human Right.

    —————————————————

    sodeypop It’s not like you can’t get free birth control. FFS

  23. I totally agree with Harper, do some research before bringing a kid into the world. They’re damn expensive. Besides, you don’t think you should be paying top dollar to trust someone else with your kid’s life? You’d rather a bargain basement daycare with one caregiver to 50 kids? There’s seven billion of us, adopt a 14 y.o. kid next time.

  24. I don’t understand why couples have children for strangers to raise.People don’t live within their means so, the children end up in daycare or at a babysitter’s;until they’re old enough for school.
    I think it’s more important that a child have one of their parents at home;even if “home” is an apartment instead of a posh house decked out with all the trendy furnishings.

  25. Not everyone who has to work and put their kids into daycare is ‘living beyond their means,” boru.

    Perhaps you should call my mother and ask her why she worked. Then get my dad on the phone and ask him why he worked two jobs.

    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with putting your kids into daycare, and in fact, children benefit quite a lot from being socialized with their peers at an early age.

    My family never lived above their means. Still don’t, but that didn’t mean my parents could’ve done the one income family thing. Most parents I know with children under five would love to stay home with them, but they can’t. Most don’t live in ‘posh homes with trendy furnishings,’ either.

    And some of us just want to work. With all the good childcare services available these days, there’s no reason in the world someone should feel guilty about leaving their kids in an environment where they get to socialize with their peers and are cared for by people who are probably more qualified to take care of a child and teach them the building blocks they’ll take with them into their school years (trained early child educators) than their actual parents. I don’t feel one bit guilty about the fact that I’ll be leaving my child in daycare while I go back to work after I have kids.

    My parents and I are pretty close and I got more than enough time with both growing up. I don’t think putting your kid into daycare harms the parent-child bond… I certainly know people who had a parent stay home with them when they were kids and they are anything but close with their parents. I don’t think there’s a cause and effect when it comes to putting your kid into daycare.

  26. A LITTLE HOUSECLEANING

    Dear Help Wanted,

    Well, it looks like the usual right-wing rednecks are out in force. With a few exceptions, where their posts are not incoherent, irrelevant or beside the point, they resort to the usual tactic of blaming the victim, i.e., you. You CHOSE to have the child, they shout, and therefore it’s your fault so stop whining! But there is nothing in your bitch about the circumstances resulting in your having a child – it could have been spousal divorce, death, desertion, or even just an accident. But that doesn’t matter for the rednecks. YOU ARE TO BLAME!

    I thought it might be fun to take a fast look at some of the more fatuous comments, so let’s go:

    : Dim Bro Tim (03/06, 4:50PM): When day-care is socialized then the cost will go to over $100 a day. Any evidence? Are you kidding?

    : Stephen Harper (5:00PM): “Having kids is a CHOICE!” Is it? See my intro above? “Blame the Victim!”

    : canned (6:28PM): The first paragraph is incoherent – he’s “not sure that a per diem would improve the tradeoffs faced by low income mothers” whatever that might mean. The second paragraph, predictably, is “Blame the Victim!”

    : koda (10:02PM): Incoherent. No planning. “Blame the Victim!”

    : Pretty Kitty ((03/07, 1:09AM): “Blame the Victim!” You can’t compare Quebec and Nova Scotia. Any evidence? Are you kidding? Quebec has the largest debt per capita in Canada, as well, of course, as the highest taxes in North America. Without the transfer payments we’d be out of sight.

    : Naveed (5:07AM): It’s your “spawn” Help Wanted, didn’t you know? “Blame the Victim!”

    : The Dribbler (9:57AM): “Quebec is not part of Canada so it’s totally irrelevant.” What a mug.

    : funnygirl (12:51PM) : “Blame the Victim!”

    : More (3:27PM): “Blame the Victim!”

    : tj902 (5:58PM) : “Blame the Victim!”

    : Sodypop (9:51PM): “Blame the Victim!”

    : Reg Le Crisp (11:13PM): “Blame the Victim!”

    : Boru (11:41PM): Incoherent.

    : Pretty Kitty (03/08, 5:57AM): Irrelevant.

    : Brawdove (2:30PM): Why, Brawdove, why? What do you have besides nothing to offer?

    So Help Wanted, you’ve got to remember that this is a reactionary right-wing site where even the suggestion of government subsidized day-care raises the specter of unspeakable socialism. Although the actual circumstances surrounding the birth of your child were never made explicit, you must understand that IT IS STILL YOUR FAULT! YOU ARE THE VICTIM BUT YOU WILL STILL BE BLAMED! But don’t worry. I’m on your side.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  27. MM You must have a problem with your reading comprehension at times.

    Obviously to me,PK understood my comment concerning this post.if my writing was ‘INCOHERENT’, she wouldn’t have understood my comment.

  28. ugh i know… We’re talking about living close to the in-laws so they can help out. Thankfully we don’t have any kiddlers yet but we want them. We’re thinking of selling a kidney or two.

  29. MM. I’m interested in hearing you explain why you think the first paragraph is incoherent, apart from the type (” led to increased”). Data shows that Quebec’s per diem did not increase labour supply or fertility of low income women. Given that Nova Scotia currently has a similar child care policy as Quebec’s previous policy, there is little reason to suggest that a per diem would affect the labour supply or fertility of Nova Scotia’s low income mothers. High income mothers can already (presumably) afford child care, so what are the welfare implications (i.e. social justice) of a per diem?

  30. P/ … How can anyone even make sense from … mumble, mumble, mumble,mumble I’m better than you & you & you & you .
    It’d be funny if it wasn’t the same ole song & dance for every single response aka MUMBLE MUMBLE MUMBLE , the poor enlightened fool is just so pathetic .
    don’t forget ‘enlightened’ means smarter & better than everyone else lol.

  31. I’m definitely a redneck but, calling me “right wing” may earn you a ham sized fist upside your noggin, MM.

  32. Good morning Help Wanted. I trust you slept well.

    Well, as expected HW, the reactionary rednecks were up in arms about my brief comments on their views of your bitch but since they were all more or less saying the same thing (when, that is, they said anything at all) i.e., YOU ARE TO BLAME!, any extended analysis would be both tedious and, of course, pointless. However, one or two replied showing at least some stirrings of thought so I’ll dispatch them quickly and mercifully.

    : Boru 1014 (03/08, 6:43PM)

    Boru, read your statement (03/07, 11:41PM) over again:
    “People don’t live within their means so, the children end up in daycare or at a babysitter’s until they’re old enough for school.”

    Now Boru, do you see any mention in HW’s bitch to the effect that she didn’t live within her means? No, that’s right, there’s none so that part of your comment was just irrelevant. However, your claim that they end up in daycare as a result of not living within their means is incoherent in the context of HW’s bitch since – are you ready for this Boru? – SHE CAN’T GET INTO DAYCARE! That was the substance of her bitch and your comment, as a consequence, was incoherent.

    Of course, on the basis of her comments, there’s no guarantee that PK would understand anything that does not directly concern her welfare or her body. She certainly has no knowledge of the situation in Quebec when she airily dismisses any comparison with Nova Scotia.

    : canned (7:01PM)

    The “welfare implications (i.e. social justice) of a per diem” are just that, the implementation of a program aiming at social justice. Your econometric, mechanistic account of the benefit/loss consequences of a low per diem for day-care – ” the trade-offs faced by low-income mothers” as you so sensitively put it – has clearly blinded you to its point which, as I pointed out, is both irrelevant and consequently renders your account incoherent.

    Of course, your embrace of the reactionary thug Stephen Harper (8:12PM) comes as no surprise.

    Well HW, since the other comments were, without exception, lacking in substance any comment I might make would be, as previously indicated, both tedious and pointless. Invariably, those are the two pre-eminent emotions when one reads their vacuous jibes.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  33. —–
    so I’ll dispatch them quickly and mercifully.
    —–

    Saves time from engaging in actual conversations.

    Troll.

    p

  34. MM failed to understand my question (“what are the welfare implications (i.e. social justice) of a per diem?), thus leading him to disregard the rest of the facts I stated as “irrelevant” and my argument as “incoherent”. I will reframe my question using two equally important sub-questions to make it easier for MM to comprehend.

    Would replacing an income-tested child care subsidy with a universal per diem reduce social injustice? If so, what principles of social justice favor a per diem over an income-tested subsidy? Please include a definition of social justice.

    Good luck, MM.

  35. Good afternoon, Help Wanted.

    I trust your lunch was satisfactory.

    It appears that a few stragglers want to continue to challenge me on the question of the admission of your child to affordable low-cost day-care. One hopes that new reasons will be forthcoming to support their objection to such admission but, of course considering the reduced cognitive capacity of most of them, one must not get one’s hopes up too high. Oh well, let’s see what they have to say.

    : P/ (03/09, 10:21AM)

    Now this is ironic, HW. P/ claims that I am attempting to avoid engaging the commenters in “actual conversation”.
    Now, if anyone has never engaged in “actual conversation” with anyone it is P/ himself whose comments are usually simple variations on “fuck you” or even, as in the case of 10:36AM, reduced to some incomprehensible letter code. I guess “troll” and “D” constitute “conversation” for P/ but, of course, not for me (or any other rational individual).

    : The Ivan Has Landed (10:28AM)

    Here’s another one, HW. He claims that I don’t engage the commenters in conversation. To support his claim he posts an attachment. I don’t know what’s in the attachment because I don’t open them, his or anyone else’s. In addition to finding attachment’s fatuous fluff and often crude I’ve always thought HW, that if someone has something to say they should, um, go ahead and say it where, of course by “saying it” I mean not just uttering a brain fart but give actually giving reasons in support of their assertion. I’m sure you agree with that HW. It’s just being rational.

    : canned (1:53PM)

    Contrary to his claim HW, I understood both his question very well and the fact that his “facts” he cited were, indeed, irrelevant to his argument. His “facts” were those of a blinkered, bean-counting, econometric and mechanistic technocrat but the question never concerned such simple mechanical “trade-offs” for low-income parents. Rather, the real question was that of “social justice” which I see he now wishes to discuss. Well, let’s do so.

    (1) “Would replacing an income-tested child care subsidy with a universal per diem reduce social injustice?”
    Let’s look at the case of HW. Unless one is to count welfare/employment insurance as “income,” she doesn’t have an income so the income-tested child-care subsidy would be irrelevant for her and those like her. In other words, a universal per diem would indeed reduce social injustice for those in her circumstances. In still other words, HW would have to get a job to qualify for an income-tested subsidy and this is precisely what she cannot now get and so the per diem rate would indeed reduce social injustice.

    (2) “If so, what principles of social justice favor a per diem over an income-tested subsidy. Please include a definition of social justice.” The guiding principle favouring a per diem over an income-tested subsidy, as indicated in #1, is that of universality. Social justice – if it is indeed to be social justice and not some sort of simulacrum – demands impartial universality in its application. My definition of social justice is identical to that of Fourier, the 19th. century French socialist who maintained that simply it consists of, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” If you can do better, here’s your chance.

    But all of this is overhead traffic. You have offered a formal distinction which doesn’t distinguish. Who knows in theory whether a per diem as opposed to an income-tested subsidy reduces social injustice? Your contrast is, in fact, itself irrelevant. It’s all very nice to compare and contrast a per diem day-care rate as opposed to an income-tested subsidy but the issue on the ground is HW’s inability to obtain affordable day-care for her child so that she could both provide for him and provide a sense of dignity and purpose for herself. That is and always was the issue. It’s called “social justice.” I hope you are able to comprehend that but, given your “argument,” it appears that my hopes may well be misplaced.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  36. —–
    In addition to finding attachment’s fatuous fluff and often crude
    —–

    He accuses others of relying on cursing and insults, but is fixated on the labia of one(or more) female posters, talks of pulling down the panties and spanking others, and talks about masturbation.

    T. R. O. L. L.

    By the shining beard of Dennis Cato, I swear this to be true.

    Weetabix!

    p

  37. I personally think it’s hilarious when people accuse others of not using birth control or et cetera, when the people in question have two or three kids. If they weren’t using contraceptives fairly reliably on a regular basis they’d have 9-14 or more!
    Remember how it was like four generations ago?
    Also, for those of you complaining about the lack of foresight with parents in regards to daycare costs, maybe daycare would be cheaper if parents weren’t shamed into not complaining about it in public forums?
    It’s always been my philosophy that if you don’t play the game, you shouldn’t referee.

  38. “Unless one is to count welfare/employment insurance as “income,” she doesn’t have an income so the income-tested child-care subsidy would be irrelevant for her and those like her”

    An income-tested subsidy is usually designed as follows: provided your income falls below a certain threshold – in this case a family net income of $60,000 – you qualify for a reduced rate, i.e. a subsidy. So if OB is on welfare or receiving EI, she would qualify. So, no, a per diem would not be welfare enhancing, even for OB.

    I agree with you that child care ought to be available for those who want or need it. My point was that a per diem such as Quebec’s isn’t a necessary condition for the social justice you’re seeking. I think you failed to see that. Better luck next time.

  39. this message is a test message to determine if our new moderator has shut these guys down again

  40. “Also, for those of you complaining about the lack of foresight with parents in regards to daycare costs, maybe daycare would be cheaper if parents weren’t shamed into not complaining about it in public forums?”

    Because paying less than minimum wage for a service where someone is working per hour for you is ‘fair.’

    These are just the costs associated with having children and being a working parent.

    Having kids in this country is a CHOICE. You can choose to have your kid or you can choose to not have sex and/or have an abortion. All are life choices. And it’s not fair to expect people to work for slave wages because of your life choice.

  41. “It’s always been my philosophy that if you don’t play the game, you shouldn’t referee.”

    It’s always been my philosophy that when you are expected to pay for someone else’s choices/mistakes, you’ve earned the right to kvetch.

  42. Good morning Help Wanted.

    I trust you slept well.

    It seems that some are still hanging on in an attempt to justify preventing you from obtaining low-cost day-care for your child and you from living with purpose and dignity. I realize that all this is tedious for you – the usual blame the victim types are back – while others muse on the mechanisms of low-cost day-care rather than engage the real-world problem directly – but one must engage them at their level(s). So what’s on our plate this morning?

    : P/ (03/09, 5:46PM)

    As expected. P/ is unable to escape his monomania that I am a troll but that’s his problem, not mine. He cannot grasp that this is a real issue which must be faced. Also, lacking a sense of humour himself – in fact I detect prudish undertones – he is unable to distinguish between my humour – the panties and all that -and the “crude,” often vicious content of many attachments posted by those who are unable to articulate their “thoughts” and so rely on cartoons of various sorts. While on the subject of attachments and why I don’t open them, I could add that in those cases where they are not simply fatuous they are aggressive and totalitarian in nature, aimed at shutting down debate. One cannot debate with a cartoon. Finally, P/ is unable to grasp the fact that topics like masturbation, as with all conscious human activities, can (and should) be the object of philosophical reflection. He is unable to do this because, clearly, he lacks philosophy. So, HW, that’s that for P/. Who’s next?

    : lilac (6:06PM)

    Listen to this, HW, “… maybe day-care would be cheaper if parents weren’t shamed into not complaining about it in public forums?” What about that, HW? Right! It’s incoherent. There’s no connection between the two parts of the sentence. Don’t ask about his “philosophy” and referees “playing the game.” Clearly, lilac not only doesn’t have a philosophy, he doesn’t even understand the meaning of the word.

    : canned (6:59PM)

    Well, HW, he has his paper and pencil out again but, as usual, he misses the point. What is that point? It is social justice. His “point” was directed at me to the effect that “a per diem subsidy as Quebec’s isn’t a necessary condition for the social justice you’re seeking.” But HW, he fails to see that I DON’T CARE WHETHER IT’S A PER DIEM OR INCOME-TESTED SUBSIDY which results in a diminution of social injustice! It’s SOCIAL JUSTICE, not the particular methods of achieving it which is paramount. Why not have both? I think he just failed to see that, HW. Better luck next time. Of course HW, he also failed to provide a definition of social justice, the very thing he demanded of me and which I provided but which I guess he also “failed to see.” But that’s not a matter of “luck,” is it HW? No, you’re right, it’s not and moreover, it provides the rationale for all his pencil and paper calculations. He has the mentality of the accountant.

    : PK (03/10, 5:17AM)

    Well, HW, here’s another pious Pete blaming the victim, claiming that YOU HAD A CHOICE! What she fails to understand is that the issue is – now, presently, concretely – not one of past choice but rather one of affordable day-care for your child – now, presently, concretely – so that you can provide for him and, through gainful employment, acquire purpose and self-worth. In other words, the issue is about – you’re right again, HW – SOCIAL JUSTICE!

    So there we go HW. Another chapter is entered in the books. Maybe it will be the last. Fingers crossed. I’ll be back after lunch to make sure you’re not being bullied again.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  43. “Social Justice” – that radical notion that it is far preferable for the innocent to suffer than for one irresponsible, self-absorbed miscreant to have their “rights” in any way diminished.

    So go on, follow your biological imperatives like a brood sow. Keep farting out the kids, secure in the knowledge that the benefit cheques will continue to arrive like clockwork and society will foot the bill for childcare, education and eventual incarceration.

    Anybody else pick up on the fact that our resident Ph.D’s Socratic Dialogue with HW, is, in fact, a monologue.

  44. “Unless one is to count welfare/employment insurance as “income,” she doesn’t have an income so the income-tested child-care subsidy would be irrelevant for her and those like her”

    It is income no matter what semantics you use. It is money coming into a home and that includes any support payments. It may or may not be earned or taxable but it is definitely income.

  45. Predictably, MM ignores the point made, which was:

    —–
    He accuses others of relying on cursing and insults, but is fixated on the labia of one(or more) female posters, talks of pulling down the panties and spanking others, and talks about masturbation.
    —–

    Or says it’s alright when HE does it, because he is doing it philosophically.

    Accusing others of relying on insults and ad hominim, he does just that.
    Why?
    Because his troll character applies one set of values to others, who he is attacking, and himself, who he allows plenty of leeway under the canard of “Philosophy”.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you, Montrealman.
    Take my troll, please.

    By the shining beard of Dennis Cato I swear this to be true.

    Weetabix!

    P

  46. Good afternoon Help Wanted.

    I hope that your lunch was satisfactory.

    Things seem to be thinning out but there are still those who persist, although there is not a shred of evidence in your bitch to support it, that you are little more than the Whore of Babylon, a conniving parasite who freely chose to have your child with an eye to feeding on the community of dupes and innocents. The fact, of course, is that there is nothing in your bitch relating to the circumstances surrounding your choice – the possibilities include spousal death, divorce, desertion to name just the “d’s” – but this is ignored and has blinded them to the fact that the basic issue is the the same as it always was – the nature of social justice itself which none, including the Accountant, have managed to define. So, a few brief replies to clean the slate.

    : The Chairman (aka The Most Popular Poster on this Site) (03/10, 9:48AM)

    It’s a familiar refrain HW, he who pays the piper calls the tune which is fine, as far as it goes. But how far does it go? Not very far. Society is more than a simple commercial arrangement signed on to by autonomous self-seeking individuals. It is a community of mutual assistance, one founded on the principles of social justice, particularly as it applies to those who are very young or, through no fault of their own, are disadvantaged in attaining a life of dignity and hope. In other words, the principle of social justice is operative in a community conceived in terms of mutual assistance, sometimes called the “organic” view of society, as opposed to a Hobbesian “bellum omnia contra omnes ” – that’s Latin for “a war of all against all” – sometimes called the “atomistic” view of society. It is this basic philosophical conflict which powers the present debate. Look for the key “atomistic” words, HW like, “Choice!” “Liberty!” “Freedom!”; “Individual Rights!” and so on. Then look for the Hobbesian subtext. It’s not difficult to find. “Me and mine and to hell with you!”

    (10:34AM)

    Now HW, there’s a classic Hobbesian formulation. There are some “rights” which are legitimate – those of the “innocent” – but not those of the Whore of Babylon who, it is maintained (without a shred of supporting evidence), keeps “farting out the kids” who – drumroll please – will all eventually wind up eventually being incarcerated. Is it possible, however, that the root cause of such a scenario is the Hobbesian vision of society itself – that “war of all against all” – which has brought us to this pass in the first place?

    Yes, it might sound like a monologue but HW is in total agreement with everything I say – “on all fours” as they say in Law School case-work – so her additional input is neither required nor necessary. Is that right, HW? “Yes Montrealman, that’s exactly right!” “Atta girl, HW!”

    : Dim Bro Tim (12:37PM)

    Yes Dim Bro, that is true and you can confirm it with the Accountant. But – hang onto the arms of your chair to prevent vertigo – that is not (and never was) the issue. It is – and always was – that of social justice, speaking of the definition of which we haven’t yet heard from the Accountant. Can a cat have gotten his tongue?

    Well, there we are HW. Not terribly exciting but one must touch all the bases. I’ll check things out tomorrow morning to make sure no one’s bullying you.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  47. RSVP

    : P/ (03/10, 2:44PM)

    Read my reply (03/10, 10:22AM) to yours (03/09, 5:46PM) over again. Try not to move your lips. If you have difficulties either in vocabulary (i.e., “book words”) or in general comprehension, do not hesitate to ask.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  48. I didn’t specify my definition of social justice. I made fairly obvious to anyone who can read between the lines that anything that enhances welfare (well being, total consumption, etc) is also socially just.

    It’s all fine and well to desire social justice (who wouldn’t want to live in a socially just society?) but you need to know a little bit about the empirics of things (in this case, day care) in order to say anything relevant about how one might alleviate social injustice. Or you can talk about Quebec’s per diem even though doing so does nothing to help OB’s current situation.

    Better luck next time.

  49. @ PK…I believe that anyone who works with children should be paid WELL over minimum wage-Lowering costs in other areas or allotting greater subsidies are far better options if we are trying to make childcare more accessible for families. This is something that is commonly done in other places, such as Scandinavia. Allowing more parents to work from home is also a feasible option that is sometimes utilized in other countries, but that is rarely implemented here. Primary caregivers need more viable options. Especially when weekend, shift-work or evening/ night hours are worked-Very few daycares are open past 5 and none are open on Saturday and Sunday. Money is only a small fraction of the problem.
    Do you have children PK?

  50. Good morning HW.

    I trust you slept well.

    It looks like we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel this morning HW so it’s just a matter, to change the metaphor, of tying up loose ends. Who’s up first? Ah, it’s Dim Bro Tim.

    : Dim Bro Tim (03/10, 3:54PM)

    For God’s sake Dim Bro, have a little class. Try not to advertize your flatulence!

    : canned (03/10, 3:54PM)

    Hello! Who’s this? Why, it’s the Accountant! Well, well HW, let’s see what he has to say.

    The first thing to note is that he doesn’t say much. All the Accountant does is to blame the reader for not understanding his definition of “social justice” – a perfectly reasonable position in view of the fact that he never gave one – and then claims that we must “read between the lines” to grasp the profundity of his insight into the nature of social justice. Okay, what’s between the lines?

    Well HW, the Accountant wants us to know that social justice consists of “anything that enhances welfare (well being, total consumption, etc) is also socially just.” How would you deal with that, HW? Right! The first thing you might ask is, just what does the “also” refer to? The Accountant never specified anything else that might be read “between the lines” so what’s he talking about? That’s called incoherence HW, a fact I’m sure you already are aware of. Okay, what’s your next line of attack?

    That’s right HW! Social justice does NOT simply refer to ANYTHING that enhances welfare but rather it involves a great deal more, specifically an appeal to the principle of “distributive justice.” Look at that word “justice” in the phrase “social justice.” What does it mean? That’s right, HW! It means “fairness”. But what is fairness? Right again HW, fairness is the operative principle underlying operation of distributive justice and, in the present context, is the principle serving to allocate affordable day-care places which are not infinite in number. In other words, a criterion is required to adjudicate such distribution. What is that criterion? As I claimed in a previous post, the criterion is that of “greatest need”. In your case, HW, it consists of the justice of your claim, given your contextualizing circumstances, to low-cost day-care. So what’s next?

    Well, here we come to the nub of the issue, HW. The Accountant’s claim to the effect that one needs to know “the empirics of things” to say anything relevant about how social injustice is to be alleviated is to get the issue precisely wrong. “The “empirics of things” tell us nothing. It is the principle determining the distribution of those “empirics” which is the operative factor. In other words, “the empirics of things” is parasitic on the principle of social justice, not the other way around. But the Accountant, being an accountant – and also, no doubt unknowingly, being a philosophical empiricist as well since the terms are interchangeable – is unable to grasp this fundamental truth. The level of his understanding stops at “the empirics of things.” He lives at the empirical (i.e. strictly “measurable”) level. His view, in other words, is ethically lobotomized.

    Better luck next time.

    Well, HW, that should about do it. I’ll drop by this afternoon to make sure there are still no bullies around. Have a good lunch. You might want to try a little vintage Riesling.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  51. As I thought:
    Why you do it, it’s “Philosophy”.
    When I do it, it’s different.

    Go back to your labia and whippets, Dennis.

    p

  52. how is she a victim for choosing to have a child and then complaining about the associated costs Montrealman?

  53. Now Zedster. would I do that to the folks I love?
    Strictly speaking, everybody in the picture is clad.

  54. Good afternoon Help Wanted.

    I trust your lunch was satisfactory and you acted on my suggestion to accompany it with a glass of Riesling.

    As a result of my philosophical analyses things appear to be calming down. There’s no sign of the Accountant so it looks like he’s accepted my spanking as his due. He’s learned his lesson, i.e., when engaging Montrealman it’s always a good idea to have your philosophical ducks lined up in a row. Well HW, who’s first? Oh no, not P/!

    : P/ ( 03/11, 10:10AM)

    I think we’ve hit a new low in incoherence, HW. It might be called “textual incoherence,” one where his post, while only a couple of lines, fails to convey his meaning. He writes,

    “Why you do it, it’s ‘Philosophy.’
    When I do it, it’s different.”

    Did P/ mean to start the first sentence with the word “When?” Who knows? Although in either case – “Why” or “When” – he is quite correct. Why (When) I do it, it is indeed Philosophy. (No scare quotes necessary.) I engage the mind of the other, analyze his assumptions, and test them against the criteria of rationality. That’s called doing Philosophy.

    In contrast, where P/ does it, it is indeed different. The question obviously is, of just what does that “difference” consist? Clearly, when P/ does it, it is without thought, without reflection, without careful analysis. But what is it, you ask. Sadly, it is only a brain fart. Nothing more, nothing less (as if there COULD BE anything less). Who’s next, HW? It’s the Chairman!

    : The Chairman (aka The Most Popular, Most Beloved and Most Esteemed Poster on this Site) (10:12AM)

    In spite of my protestations that I do not open attachments because they are totalitarian and bullying, the Chairman has nonetheless posted another. Why has he done this? Is it some sort of ploy, an enticement similar to his “gifts” at the summits but with the difference here that it is not loyalty he wishes to command – the foundation, of course, of his power and command on this site – but rather to ridicule and mete out punishment? What’s on it? Who knows? Who cares? Who, for that matter, is “Honoria”? Haven’t a clue. And oh look! The Dribbler has joined in! Aren’t they just having fun? Aren’t they just enjoying themselves? Aren’t they just a wonderful in-group?

    : funnygirl (11:35AM)

    You ask how HW is a victim for choosing to have a child and then complaining about the associated costs. You must try and read my posts over more attentively. I refer you to the introduction to my “A Little House Cleaning” (03/08, 4:56PM) where I clearly stated that HW’s bitch did not contain a scintilla of information surrounding the birth of her child. The word “choice” did not appear. She simply had a child under circumstances we know nothing about, wanted to put it into day-care, but could not afford to do so. Simple as that.

    The result – it must be obvious to you – is that to blame her misses the point. The point is not “blaming the victim” as I continually pointed out but rather about social justice. It is in that context that HW can be called a “victim” since she is clearly one of the dispossessed in our society and, given the costs associated with unaffordable day-care, both her child and HW herself must face sharply diminished prospects to the point that any hope beyond the welfare/employment insurance trap is lost. You do understand that now, don’t you? If you have any further difficulties in comprehension, don’t hesitate to write.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  55. Like I said- labia and whippets.

    Your run is over, Dennis. Pack your bags.

    By the shining beard of Dennis Cato, I swear this to be true.

    Weetabix!

    p

  56. MOVE & COUNTER-MOVE: THE PSYCHOLOGICAL SUB-TEXT OF ATTACHMENTS

    Good morning Help Wanted. I trust you slept well.

    Instead of playing ping-pong with the lightweights – there are only two remaining, the lightest of them all since the Accountant has clearly bitten the dust – I thought I would reflect on the attachments some feel compelled to post in addition to their usually very brief and vacuous textual efforts. Specifically I would like to elaborate on my reply (03/11, 4:25PM) to the latest comment of the Chairman (aka “The Beloved”). I want to develop my initial question, i.e, why does he do this? What is going on? The answer, in brief, is low-grade psychological warfare consisting of move and counter-move. It goes like this.

    The whole point of the Chairman’s attachments is that of enticement – not dissimilar to his “gifts” at the summits – but with the difference that it is not some counterfeit “bonhomie” which is on display but rather a clearly aggressive move aimed at occupying the consciousness of the viewer, in this case me. In other words, once one has opened the attachment and gazes at it – the content is usually irrelevant – one’s consciousness, if only momentarily, is captured. That is the point. The Chairman has occupied one’s conscious awareness. One has become his plaything. The Chairman has won. He has come to exercise power by means of his attachment. In philosophical terms, that is what might be called the Chairman’s first “move”. What, then, constitutes an adequate “counter-move?”

    It is not enough to just not open the Chairman’s attachments and leave it at that. No, it is imperative that one announces that fact in unambiguous terms. What happens as a result? The Chairman is undone. His move to gain control – the whole point of the Chairman’s posts on this site – has failed. His attachment sits limply, flaccidly in his hand, shorn of its utility. The Chairman is crestfallen. He realizes that his first move was impotent. But what then? Will the Chairman mount a counter-counter-move? That is what remains to be seen. Otherwise, the pit beckons where, with luck, he might join up with the Accountant.

    Sorry for the diversion, HW, but some things must be claified. I’ll whip through this thread after lunch to make sure everything’s on the up-and-up. You might want to finish that bottle of Riesling.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  57. I haven’t “bitten the dust” and I would be wary of mislabeling your obtusity with intellectual superiority. Go over my posts again, and try not to move your lips.

    Better luck next time,

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  58. Good afternoon Help Wanted.

    I trust your lunch was satisfactory. Did you finish the bottle of Riesling? I bet it was good.

    Just a couple of stragglers and we’ll lay this one to rest.

    : The Toad (03/12, 10:07AM)

    The Toad doesn’t realize that the legitimacy of an answer doesn’t depend on the question which anyone – particularly on this site – has asked. A fortiori (that’s Latin for “even stronger”), since the Toad has no answers to give, her ruling on the legitimacy of any question is moot (that’s a legal expression meaning “irrelevant).

    : The Accountant (10:35AM)

    There is no such word as “obtusity,” you buffoon.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  59. And by someone, I mean MM.

    I hereby declare this debate over. MM, the clear loser.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  60. RSVPS

    : The Chairman, aka “The Beloved” (03/13, 5:10PM)

    Disappointingly, the Chairman did not pick up on my “move”. Seneca was not in a bath but rather had two pans of water resting by his side into which he held his slit wrists. Also, there could not have been munchies since it would have resulted in a hell of a mess on the table. You must beware of false “moves.” My win.

    : The Accountant ((0314, 8:50 & 8:52PM)

    You don’t “declare” anything.

    And, oh yes, “obtuse”, a. dull, not acute,; stupid, slow of perception. Hence – ly adv., – ness, n.” (The Concise Oxford Dictionary)

    So, the correct substantive for “obtuse” is ….. “OBTUSENESS”!

    You buffoon.

    A pleasure as always.

    Cheerio!

  61. —–
    my win
    —–

    lols
    Whatever you say, princess.

    —–
    How was your bath Dennis? Not too warm was it?
    —–

    More like a shower.
    A golden shower.

    By the pissy beard of Dennis Cato I swear this to be true.

    Honeycrisp!

    p

  62. I get it, it sucks…I grumbled myself but recognize that these workers get paid minimum wage of just over $10, then there’s the cost of food (way more if you want a healthy child not living out of canned goods), then there are activities (if you want diversity of excercise & entertainment), taxes, & insurance. Do the math, $25 truly doesn’t even cut it! $25 at 8hrs/day is $3/hr for the worker, would YOU work for that?

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