“Grown-ups” who segregate children

Lilac, you forgot what community you are speaking to. With a large population of gays and lesbians living in Halifax they couldn’t careless about how Halifax does or does not support families. Now before you send the pride flag up and raise a stink consider this. Gays and lesbians do not pro-create. That’s a fact. Yes they adopt or have kids from a previous marriage, but the majority are out to party and have a good time. Crying babies just rain on the pride parade…

I disagree with a lot of the points you make, Lilac. Some places just aren’t appropriate for children. For example, I recently went to see Neptune Theatre’s production of The Producers. It was a wonderful show, although I would have enjoyed it more if the couple in front of me hadn’t brought their child. I’m guessing he was around 3 or 4 years old. He was well behaved for the first 30 minutes or so. After that he lost interest, squirmed, talked, turned around in his seat, etc for the rest of the performance. He pretty much ruined the show for everyone in my row. Unless it’s a children’s performance, I think it’s proper etiquette to leave the kids at home. Same goes for movies.I feel the same way about restaurants. By all means, families should be ble to go out and enjoy a meal together. But do crying babies belong in quiet, upscale restaurants? In my opinion, no. I think you’re better off sticking to places that have “Family” in the name, or that have ketchup bottles right on the table. If an establishment doesn’t offer high chairs and kids menus, you might want to take the hint. Sometimes adults (those who have children, and those who don’t) just want to have a quiet, leisurely meal in a restaurant. There are plenty of family-friendly places to choose from. Leave Il Mercato, Saege, and the likes to the grownups who can appreciate them.I don’t have kids, but I have a lot of friends who do. I hope to one day have a few myself, so I hope I’m not coming across as some sort of “kid-hater”. I just think there are places for families, and there are places for adults. Yes, I was a kid once too, but you can bet my parents didn’t take me to whatever the 1970s equivalent to Da Maurizio was.

And thank you Ex for taking care of Tugboat and his moronic opinions.

Parents are not absolved of any responsibility to be considerate of others when they have an infant or toddler. There are restaurants you take your kids to and then there are restaurants you leave the kids home with a sitter for…know the difference or suffer the “humiliation and embarrassment” that a restaurant full of people that are pissed at your rudeness and glaring at you cause. Don’t point the guilty finger at the other paying customers who only wanted to have a nice and respectably quiet dinner, that’s pretty arrogant of you to place the blame on them.Get some class and hire a babysitter if you want to eat at a real restaurant…you want the kids with you, off to McDonald’s or even a diner for cripes sakes, your right to “get out the house” does not over-ride everyone else’s rights especially the restaurant owner that loses business from inconsiderate parents. I have definitely seen people get up and leave (refusing to finish or pay for their meals) after some obnoxious parent and their screaming kids showed up.Parents forget that their hearing has been diminished from repeated exposure to the shrill shrieks…non-parents ears quite literally HURT when your 1 and half-year-old belts out a mind shattering 100+ decibels right next to their table…

I am lucky enough to have rarely ever had my child act up in public. However, despite that, I have been given scathing looks and had absolutely ridiculous things said to both myself and my son. Friends of mine who have children have made similar remarks about such things happening with them. Halifax is an UNUSUALLY intolerant city when it comes to children and families. If one goes to Montreal or Edinburgh you will see babies in nice restaurants, B & Bs, galleries and museums. When I lived in these places I never had anyone say anything negative to me for having a child present. It was common for people to go out of their way to be nice, as a matter of fact. There are some who commented on here about spanking. Is it really your opinion that corporal punishment be used on an infant because they may be crying during a dinner out? A few posts mentioned that families should only go to family places. Why isn’t a nice restaurant a family place? Why would someone just assume that a particular environment is only for them and their needs? I can understand with the theatre, how someone may have been mildly annoyed, however I have also gone to theatres and found adults to be just as irritating or even moreso, due to cell phone conversations or massive doses of perfume/ mothballed coats, etc. and I would never suggest that single people not be allowed into a place that I enjoy frequenting. There is a clear and pressing prejudice against children and families in Halifax. Many people raised there children downtown a few generations ago, but now it is difficult to find families living in this city; it’s almost as if others feel as if children have no place here in the city, as if they don’t belong. That’s wrong-headed and cold-hearted. EVERYONE, and I mean, EVERYONE, was once a child.It takes a village, you know… : )

Why isn’t a nice restaurant a family place?There are plenty of “nice” family restaurants. Boston Pizza, for example, has plenty of kid-friendly menu options, pleasing decor, and I think they’ll even give the kids some crayons to colour with while they’re waiting.What makes a place ‘not’ a family place? First of all, listen. If people are speaking in fairly hushed tones, that’s a good indication people would prefer not to be interrupted by a an unruly child. And last time I checked, kids didn’t want to eat fois gras or escargot. If they’re on the menu, it might not be a place for youngsters.

I have a reason for what you posted Scott:”There are a way more spoiled children now then there use to be. The parents seem to have less consideration for others.”Those parents are the “grown-up” spoiled children now having children of their own, and because most of them have no idea how rude and inconsiderate they are…don’t realize that their kids are a nuisance…kind of like themselves. THE APPLE DOES NOT FALL FAR FROM THE TREE

I don’t think taking the kids to a restaurant that THEY want to go to is classless. Class and McDonald’s are not mutually exclusive, while it certainly won’t add anything to the culture of your personality it also does not detract from it…so I return your MORON with a double helping of: Get some REAL class and open a book and learn what it is. Class is something that is a proponent of your personality, it’s the way you react and deal with circumstances..whatever they may be, not some pathetic opinion of what is considered haute couture…that’s just being a SNOB.Ruining a quiet dinner (with rudeness and inconsiderate behavior) for dozens of people is about as un-classy as you can get.

Kay that is an argument about whether it is ok to take your kids to McRotties…not about CLASS…you seem to be confused about what you are debating.

No one’s suggesting it is, Kay. It’s a fact – kids like McDonalds. A parent who takes them there every once in a while as a treat isn’t doing them a great disservice. Everyone needs a treat now and then. No one is suggesting adults should be fed healthy food and kids should be fed crap. They’re saying kids don’t belong in fancy, upscale (quiet) restaurants.

That was one example. I certainly don’t think he meant they should exclusively go there. There are plenty of places families can take their children for made-from-scratch meals. Any of the family-owned Greek restaurants on Quinpool Road, for example. Or Cousins Diner. Jimmy’s Homestead on Kempt Road. Jim’s Family Restaurant on the Bedford Highway. Those are just some of the many family-friendly places that offer homemade meals. Any of the chain restaurants are great for kids (Jack Astor’s, Montana’s, East Side Mario’s, etc), although their food is made right there in store.The point it, when someone is paying for an expensive meal in a higher-end restaurant, they should be allowed to enjoy their dinner in peace. If parents want to take their kids out, choose a family restaurant. Otherwise, leave the kids with a babysitter or family member.

When I was writing the original comment I had meant Halifax society in general, not only restaurants. Though to comment upon restaurants, I have to say that a certain simian establishment on Argyle is really nice when it comes to kids, as is a certain “corner” in Dartmouth. If you enjoy having a good meal and you tend to only feed your children healthy food, then they will tend to want to eat like that, always. My kid has never eaten at McRotties and hopefully, never will. There have been more than a few comments on other bitches regarding children being brought into a vast myriad of places. One of which was weddings, believe-it-or-not, that apparently it was wrong for families to bring their children with them to weddings, and other posters actually agreed to this a few weeks back. I was surprised by this attitude as such occassions are meant to include the young and old alike. I have been in places where an incredibly adorable toddler (before I had children) came over near my table while I was writing, giggled, and then ran back over to her father. There was nothing wrong with what these people did, it brought a smile to my face, however I noticed others in the place acting as if this child had absolutely ruined their day by playing close-by to them. I was taking a course at Dal and the professor had to bring in her kids with her once during a lecture. They were sweet and quiet and even helped to clean the board as everyone was leaving. I couldn’t believe the attitudes of the young women who were there seated next to me! They were actually upset that the professor had brought her children with her, even though they hadn’t interferred with the class at all! Where is this attitude coming from? When I’m speaking about people’s attitudes towards children and families I’m talking about in general. I once went into a cafe here with my son in a sling. It was on Granville and also serves liquor upstairs. I was told in no uncertain terms that I had to leave as it was a grown-up establishment, and I was in the cafe part to purchase a hot chocolate and an oatcake. My friend had already been served their coffee and so we all had to leave! There were no laws preventing me from being there at that time of day and no harm caused, however I could see from the glares given to me by others who were nearby and the tsks I heard, that it was not something I wanted to fight about. Many friends of mine have had extremely rude things said to them and their children (who were well-behaved), just for entering certain stores together. I have read about how people are often bothered by strollers on buses, etc. I never used a stroller, but friends of mine with twins did and had people often become angry with them for using the transit system. Where is all this anger coming from?There was a comment on here from Tugboat suggesting that gays don’t have children. This is completely untrue! My uncle is gay and helped to babysit me when I was a child. His partner has kids from his first marriage and now they both babysit the grandkids : )I have read a few different comments for different bitches regarding children fussing on busses. If a baby is fussing on a bus, then what can a person really do about it? They obviously can’t just get off of the bus and if an infant needs its diaper changed or what-have-you (probably the source of the tantrum), there isn’t anyplace that a diaper could be changed there. Our society should be tolerant and inclusive. These little people may not be being raised by you, however they will be contributing to the world as they grow older and perhaps to your future well-being. What is with this sense of entitlement that I keep encountering? I hear on here about “spare the rod, spoil the child” and “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”. What sort of world do you want to create by your actions and attitudes? Children are raised by their entire environment, not just the people they are born to. Why do we feel the need to exclude children from almost everything we do? What is the root of this? When I lived in other places and have travelled to different parts, I have found people to be far more friendly towards children and families. In a society that limits the movements and activities of children it also limits the movements and activities of women. Look at the comments on this thread. Very few are supportive at all, while most seem to showcase the attitude I’m refering to.

And for the record, I have many friends who have young children who regularly take them to the shopping centre, the museum, the cafe, the market, etc. without experiencing negative feedback from the staff or other patrons.But do children belong in a university lecture hall? Nope. There’s a reason you have to graduate from high school first before going to university.

Then let’s start bringing small children everywhere. Let’s bring them down to the legislature every day while the politicians are trying to work. Let’s bring them to city council every night. And university lectures. Heck, why not bring them to the Pogue for drinks tonight!I’m all for exposing children to a variety of environments and experiences. I think that’s what makes them grow into well-rounded young adults. However children have short attention spans. It’s part of their development. I don’t think most 3, 4, or 5 year olds are going to be able to stay focused or interested (which translates to quiet) during a 90 minute university lecture on Microbiology, or a two hour debate on whether a certain bill should be passed in the legislature. Most children, no matter how well-behaved, are going to become disruptive out of sheer boredom. And it wouldn’t be their fault, it would be the fault of the holier-than-thou parent who feels it’s their right to bring their kids to adult-oriented environments.

First of all, I don’t at all agree that we’re limiting places mothers can go. It’s not wrong to leave your child with a father/other family member/caregiver, etc. when it’s not appropriate to bring a child somewhere. Mothers who refuse to ever leave their children with someone else are doing them a huge disservice. They often grow up being dependant and wary of others.There are certain places where adults go to conduct important business, or further their academics where children simply don’t belong. This is important work that needs to be done, distraction free.Maybe you have an exceptionally well-behaved child who is capable of sitting for hours at a time without becoming disruptive. But he or she is just that – the exception. Most small children don’t have the attention span required to sit quietly for long periods of time in an environment with nothing to stimulate them. It’s part of their development. That’s why they shouldn’t be there. I’m not saying children don’t belong at a wedding, at a cafe, at a museum, at a store, at the market, at church, at the park, at the library, at the mall, etc., etc., etc. But there are a few places where adults should be able conduct important business without having to worry about spilled juice and wet diapers.

Lilac, lighten up. You are clearly twisting Jennie’s words to support your own perceptions, which are becoming increasingly unrealistic. Your initial argement that society has changed its view of children and that children are less tolerated in public was interesting and worthy of discourse. However, Jennie has consistently defended a perfectly valid and common view of the role of children and parents in society. Jennie has said nothing that any reasonable person would construe as viewing women and children as “second class citizens”.Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are times and places where adults should conduct adult affairs without the presence of children? Maybe kids should be welcomed at weddings, and restaurants and other very common public and private occasions. But that is the subtlety of this debate….”which restaurants should exclude kids?” “what type of theatre is not child appropriate?”. Also, in the real world, people have to learn to respect one another. There are parents who have the attitude of “to hell with everyone else, me and my kids are gonna do whatever we want” and there are others who have the equally distasteful attitude of “kids should be neither seen nor heard”. Both camps have it entirely wrong. Part of the proper socialization of a child is that they be intruduced to social settings that are age appropriate. Family restaurants might be more age-appropriate for young children, and fancy restaurants might be appropriate for teaching an older child (10ish?) how to integrate better into the adult world. Lilac seems more interested in making a large social statement and toting some sort of feminist agenda than recognizing that all these anti-/pro- children in public discussions really boils down to both parties trying to respect each other in public.

What is wrong with having a feminist agenda, Miles. Exclusionary practises remain exclusionary, regardless of the ‘logic’ employed behind them. I am not twisting this woman’s words. I am trying to argue with her arguments:“But do children belong in a university lecture hall? Nope. There’s a reason you have to graduate from high school first before going to university.” (Jennie)….what would this reason be? If a child is well behaved, like the children of the professor that I had given an earlier example of, then why would there be a problem? It wasn’t that long ago, that a pregnant student could be forced out of school for the way that they made others feel uncomfortable. “In my opinion, no. I think you’re better off sticking to places that have “Family” in the name, or that have ketchup bottles right on the table. If an establishment doesn’t offer high chairs and kids menus, you might want to take the hint.” (Jennie)So children and caregivers should not be allowed anyplace that does not serve “grown-up” food in the downtown core or that may be also enjoyed by someone on a date? That’s silly and exclusionary. There was one or two around Quinpool, that was mentioned, but really, one or two? Come on people!“Then let’s start bringing small children everywhere. Let’s bring them down to the legislature every day while the politicians are trying to work. Let’s bring them to city council every night. And university lectures. Heck, why not bring them to the Pogue for drinks tonight! ” (Jennie)”Most children, no matter how well-behaved, are going to become disruptive out of sheer boredom. And it wouldn’t be their fault, it would be the fault of the holier-than-thou parent who feels it’s their right to bring their kids to adult-oriented environments.” (Jennie)To base arguments on the assumptions that something may happen at some point in the future with any random individual is biased and highly intolerant. Unless you are a fortune teller, then I’d find the above argument without merit. Anyways, psychic people would tend to be far more empathetic, I’m sure.“First of all, I don’t at all agree that we’re limiting places mothers can go. It’s not wrong to leave your child with a father/other family member/caregiver, etc. when it’s not appropriate to bring a child somewhere. Mothers who refuse to ever leave their children with someone else are doing them a huge disservice. They often grow up being dependant and wary of others.” (Jennie)To say that a child would not be ever left with another person, just because I’d mentioned that they should be brought to some places at sometimes and then for her to suggest that they might become developmentally harmed somehow, to answer my argument that children should be more included in society, is bizarre and without fact to say the least.The argument in the end boils down to, where is it appropriate for a child and its caregiver to be? There might be many different feelings about this, however as I stated in my earlier Bitch, it seems as if Halifax is an UNUSUALLY intolerant city when it comes to children being accepted in public places. The attitude that Jennie exhibits towards children and by extension, their caregivers, in regards to governmental buildings or places involving higher education, is the same attitude shown by many in Halifax for families doing something as simple as attending a wedding, being on the bus or going to a café, to which I have read several bitches on The Coast about. The line of tolerance/ intolerance just seems to shift a bit from person to person. I’m glad that you feel it’s alright that kids can be flower girls or ring bearers at weddings, Jennie, but it’s very sad that so many people feel as if the proper place for the young and their families should be as far from the public sphere as possible. Thankfully, you only wish to limit their movements and freedoms, just a little. Miles, I have posed many queries to Jennie, without her having answered most of them and then those that she chose to answer, she answered without using any fact based or logical reasoning.This is the last I will say upon this subject as I am finding it sad and troubling that people really do appear to harbour an attitude that children and caregivers are unwelcome in places like legislatures or somewheres that may serve “escargot”; which means public places. Do you believe it should be against the law for children to be at legislature or at Dalhousie? Or is this just how you feel things should just be naturally? I hope that no one ever feels that they have a right to restrict your movements or freedoms based upon their own or another’s prejudice.EVERYONE is allowed in a public place.It’s the law. Thankfully.

By the way, it’s not a stretch to assume that a child is going to get bored and misbehave if we force them to be in environments that don’t interest or stimulate them for long periods of time – like the legislature or a lecture hall – because that’s what children do!!!