Well what do you know, city hall has committed another $30 million for something other than real rapid transit, this time the Fast Ferry proposal. Why City Hall thinks this is a good idea escapes me entirely.
Even if they had spent the $30 million on more Metro Link routes, (what we have now seems to work pretty well and only cost us $13 million) it would have served so many more people than this fast ferry will serve (like four more routes).
How many people live in Bedford compared to the rest of the city? …maybe 20,000, and that is a very generous number. Are citizens really going to want to pay $10 for a round trip to travel Downtown which might save them ten minutes on a good day, for a trip that costs far less by car?
Not to mention the tonnes and tonnes of Oil this fast ferry will consume, and we know where the fuel costs are headed these days – up up up! I wonder how long it will be before they have to raise ticket prices? Or, more likely with the way things in Halifax are handled, they’ll do a few more reports, hire some more consultants, another few studies and by that time they will have spent half the money, have nothing to show for it, and shelve the whole thing entirely.
What is up with these ignoramuses on City council? They have their heads stuck so far in the sand that they must be halfway to China by now. The sooner we vote these gooney birds out this fall, the better.
Then, once these councilors who insist on buying votes in conservative rich Bedford with a lame ass ferry boat have done their duty for Chief ignoramus Peter Kelley, perhaps we can get on with some worthwhile transit options, like high speed rail or more Metro Link routes which are cheap but effective. Rail though, is the only way to go.
This article appears in Apr 17-23, 2008.
Have you ever been on the Bedford Hwy during rush hour? Or just during the week in general. One snag, some fender bender or construction backs it up for hours. That ferry wouldn’t just be serving Bedford. There are a lot of communities that have to pass by Bedford to get to Halifax: Sackvegas, Fall River/Wellington, Enfield/Elmsdale, Mt. Uniake, Windsor. There are a lot of potential users. Since the Bedford Highway was not built to accommodate the amount of traffic that flows thru there on a daily basis, something has to be done.
Yes, that is the short sided views typical in this province. They just see the population of Bedford as the rationale for the ferry. I agree with yourmom, the highway is really not a highway, more of a street with a really fast section every so often. Because it has actual interesctions, it creates its own back log. Unlike a true highway that isnt influenced by cars stopping to turn left and intersections that require cars to go from a standing start to merge as opposed to an on ramp which allows you to be at the speed of the existing traffic, the high way is a joke. The bus idea is a decent solution, but it is really not much better in the sense it could get stuck in the very same traffic that already makes it slow as hell to get downtown. So really what would it solve should you put more busses on the road? The very things that make them slower now, would just have more potential to increase the occurances of these slow downs.
But it’s not as if the people who are using the Bedford Highway as a throughfare from somewhere else are going to give up their cars to take a ferry for PART of their trip. It will take just as long, and probably more money for them to get a bus, if they even get regular bus service, then the ferry, then the bus again.It might sound like it will help, but it’s really only going to be helpful for the people who live very close to the ferry terminal on one side, and work very close to the terminal on the other side. That narrows it down to a much smaller number.
WTF I posted on here when I first saw this…there was nothing offensive…Web Nazi what is going on?
Ohhh poor P.Kelly…did he take offense that I said it was painfully obvious that the reason the fast ferry is even being considered is because he and a few other influential councilors live in Bedford? Or was it that I commented on the fact that the council has been using a war memeorial as a parking place (Grand Parade Square).
People are Stupid: I think that there’s going to a be large parking lot at the new ferry terminal, like they have now with the Park and Ride with the older ferries. You pay a little extra than a regular bus pass but you get your pass and parking for considerably cheaper than what you would pay downtown, not to mention the savings on gas. It’s the same idea as the Dartmouth/Woodside ferries, it just goes faster than the regular ferries and it’s in Bedford. The idea has been working for years, now they’re just branching it further and making it available to other communities. I used the Dartmouth Park and Ride for years until I moved to the Halifax side and let me tell you $75/mth for a pass vs $120/mth for parking takes the win.
The ‘Fast Ferry’ would have a speed limit of 8 knots (`15 km/hr) like all other vessels in the harbour. It would take probably around 20-30 mins to make the trip one way, depending where the terminals are. That just sounds like a pretty shitty solution. Not to mention they would probably put in a flat parking garage instead of a multi story parking garage to accomodate the most cars in the smallest footprint. More Link bus routes and expanding existing ferry routes would be the way to go to get the most bang for the buck. Incidentally, you probably hit the ‘Search’ button instead of ‘submit’, because of the shitty, counterintuitive layout.
Don’t even get me started on this one. I’ve been waiting for fucking transit for years out my way (Prospect Road) and despite the fact the traffic has quadrupled over the last five years, HRM just ignores us UNTIL it comes time to increase property assessments.
Just curious here…but why couldn’t something like the GO train be used in this situation. Have a major parking lot in Sackville and Bedford for those stops; have a stop at say MSV for students; one at the rotary or West End Mall to link up with buses; one at Dal and SMU again to help students and then a final stop at Pier 21. Maybe then rearrange a couple of buse routes to meet up with the commuters at Pier 21. Perhaps some future planning could even include the airport.I’m sure the logistics of the rail-lines are the biggest obstacles but if the tracks are there, why not use them…or increase their use. And yeah, I do know how naive this all sounds as people in those affected neighbourhoods will cry NIMBY but…I’d love to hear ideas on this.
Hey Katz, and others:The GO Train type plan could work, and could work quite easily, but it would take a much larger investment than $30 million, perhaps more like $300 million, but over 25 years. Go Trains use the older (re: cheaper) diesel trains, and as such are great for long distance commutes, LRT’s are usually preferred for shorter jaunts. From the airport, beaverbank, sackviille/bedford a dielsel train would be the way to go, and the track there could be leased and is realtivelt unobstructed.The problem with using the rail cut that goes along the arm is that it is now only one line, and as city staff (gleefully) point out, it is usually backed up with container traffic, for hours at a time. The city would have to build it’s own line in this area to utilize the corridor. Not that it would be prohibitively expensive, but we’re talking somewhere in the neighbourhood fo $8-$10 million a kilometer, so a good $100 million from bedford to the VIA rail station.Another alternative is the rail line that runs along the harbour next to Barrington Street – this is a great corridor that is essentially a huge rock wall most of the way along, and therefore land acqusition costs would be next to zero since it is DND parking lots all the way along. This route also offers the benefit of terminating right at Scotia square, and a proper transit hub could be quite easily set up where the Cogswell interchange is now.But a plan like that would require forsight and fortitude, something anyone currently at City Hall is either ill equipped or unwilling to provide.
I think the real reason City Hall is scared of implementing rail is that it’s operating costs are SO much lower. I mean really low.Consider that you only need one operator per train, and these trains can hold upwards of 1000 passengers – ends up costing the city about $0.30 per passenger ride, compare this to around $1.60 per passenger bus ride. The reason? While busses are cheaper to aquire, you also need one operator (bus driver) per 75 passeners or so, almost ten times more bus drivers are needed than train operators to transfer the same number of commuters. I’m sure the Amalgamated Transit Union would be scared of this, because it might mean layoffs for bus drivers, and certainly a major operational cost savings for the city.In reality though, an LRT or train system would complement and allow the bus system to do what it does best – pick up folks from more outlying areas (like Prospect Road) and deliver them to a rail terminal where they can complete their trip much quicker.So, though Rail costs a lot in the short term, this can be amortized over a long period of time as demand increases, and helps the exsisting system work much more effectively.Some good links:http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/technical_information.htmlhttp://www.lightrailnow.org/facts.htmhttp://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/Calgarys_LRT_1st_25Years_TRB_revised.pdf
Mike1979….if i could clap and shit, i would. That is the kinda post i gave to Tim in the other thread i made, but they all here just focus on the one thing. You have looked at this from all angles. Combined with the brilliant work with the GO idea suggested by Katz. you have showed why this city will never become world class. This is the OBVIOUS solution. But the bitching and whining that this would mean people here have to change, would make the logical solution impossible.
I don’t think it’s the people who live in this city who are the problem as much as it is the lack of any real leadership or shared vision or ambition about what the city can become under the proper stewardship. And I don’t mean turning it into an antiquated museum like Lunenburg or Chester, as the Heritage Trust would have you believe is the right course of action. Halifax though is the only chance of survival the (crumbling) tax base of this province has. It is imperative that we can attract new people and build denser developments, so that we can rake in enough tax revenues to break even on the things we need now or will need in the next 25 years.Hopefully someone with a personality and some ideas, or at least someone who is progressive can take the city by the reins and turn us around.One more thing about Fast Ferries – the consultants didn’t mention to City council that virtually every fast ferry in operation in North America is heavily subsidized for its life time by city and state. We’ll be paying for this for a long long time…
Sure they could have spen t the moneyon buses and achieved more but the federal government offered millions earmarked for something like a ferry and not buses. So council had to decide whether to start this expensive project and receive millions from the feds or pass on the feds millions and finance a few more buses.
No pal, it could be used for anything, city council decided in their endless wisdom it should be for a ferry; there were no strings like that attached.
Mike1979…… are you sure it isnt the people of this city? Look for the rant i made about “you dont have the games….” Look at the replies the EDITOR OF THE NEWS OF THIS PAPER. It is the people of this city and the lack of vision. They feel they cant afford anything. They want to poke there nose in EVERYTHING city council does. If it doesnt affect them, people of this city get pissed and think they cant afford it. If it inconviences them, they tell people we should have it. If it goes against there taste, they think halifax shouldnt have it.I gave a great example of how facilities in this city will cost you FAR more than the $2billion that the CW games would have cost, doesnt matter. They are far too fixated on how much someone running the games spent on some dinner. They feel here, they should have thier opinions heard and that everything shoould be put in front of the public board to debate for years on end. They still dont have a plan for downtown. Just a bunch of nice photographs and shit. They tabled the whole concept. Just wait now, each individual part that needs to be done of that plan, will get stone walled by people like Tim that feel the people that he helped elect him, need his and every person’s input.Now this, the short sightedness of this group kills me. The logic of adding more busses does quite a few things, it adds more traffic. The point of a ferry is that it isnt impacted by cars. It will be ontime EVERY time. Much like the ferry from dartmouth is. Take them Metro Link Busses. they are at the mercy of traffic. One car accident and the Express link to Sackville is slower than walking. So what is the point of adding more potentials to be late? Now, i am not voicing an opinion as to whether or not this is a good idea, but unlike the majority of people in this city, i look to other cities and see how they have made things successful. Here, we have 300,000 chiefs, no indians.
that should be a “shouldnt have them?” in my last post. And one question for Mike1979….what is the point of electing city officials, if everything they attempt to do should be scrutiniized and debated for months on end? Isnt that a bigger waste of money than making a choice, letting our reps vote on it, then going and getting it done? We pay more in taxes for our city officials to come up with a choice, then turn around and cry about it or fight about it in city hall, than we do actualy having them same politicians actually get things done.
yourmom: I understand how well Park and Ride works, I take the ferry every day from Halifax to Dartmouth, but the problem is that it really only works if you work close to the ferry terminal. It’s only going to help people who work downtown. And there are already enough busses that go downtown. We need more busses that reach outlying areas, and that go from one end of the city to the other. Having a Park and Ride bus terminal would be just as effective in Bedford, but cost a lot less, and they could have a Link. Or they could just have a lot more bus routes put in that would get people from out lying areas into say Halifax Shopping Center where they can catch any number of busses to downtown. They should spend the money on more busses/routes, and maybe a bus lane on the Bedford Highway.
i dont know if anyone has been downtown, or near halifax shopping center…… busses are the leading cause of the congestion in the area. More busses isnt going to help traffic in any area.
Maybe Halifax should adopt the model of London, UK. Charge a fee to drive into the downtown core. (eight pounds I believe it is) Maybe then, all the drivers ALONE in their vehicles in the morning would elect to take public transit, and leave their car at home.
Public transit isn’t available to everyone, Vicky, so a lot of people don’t have a choice. Charging people to drive in Halifax? Don’t they do that with the bridge fees (haha). You’re right People are Stupid, they should be extending bus services to outlaying areas. But I disagree with your point about the Link buses. They too only work if you’re going to downtown Halifax because they don’t take you any further than Scotia Square.
That’s true about the LINK. They need to make some LINK busses that go from say, Dartmouth Crossing to Halifax Shopping Center. Or from Bedford to Burnside. Basically just faster busses but from one outlying area to another. Like make a 152 for example.
I like the idea of a LRT, but there is no way it’s going to go all the way thru to downtown along Barrington. I’m pretty sure DND isn’t going to give up what little parking they have, considering there is already no where near enough for everyone. Not to mention that you would put a train track right through the middle of the property of the base, which is a big safety and security problem. Right now the tracks go until a bit south of Duffus, and they’re used quite a bit.There really is no magic bullet, no matter what you do, the access to the peninsula will always hit a few bottlenecks. So really, the best way is to reduce the number of vehicles coming in and out durign rush hour. Carpooling is a good start, same as the making it cost/time effective to take the Link buses in. Having the Link buses go somewhere other than scotia square is also not a bad idea
one word….MONORAIL!!!!
Pete, by the Barrington corridor I meant on Barrington Street – 30 feet up a rock wall from the DND lands – so security shouldn’t be a concern, any more of a concern than it is now anyway?? A few parkades would solve the problem of their wasteful parking lots, from a landuse perspective. It’s not the middle of the base, its the extreme edge of the base and thirty feet up a rock wall!Anyhow, even if they had to lay new track, it actually gets people downtown, versus to Pier 21 where nowhere near as many people work. Plus, with all of the discussion about the Cogswell interchange going on now, the timing couldnt be better. They wouldn’t have to tunnel through bedrock at the terminal (near Barrington Place hops) because there is already all of the below grade construction completed for the cogswell interchange. Then they can cover it up and build whatever they want on top, it really fits so well.
Plus an LRT track (a two way one) is only 8 meters wide, so that wouldn’t take up too many parking spaces, just the land that is directly adjacent to Barrington Street which is just wasteland right now
click for map Actually the track ends near North Street
Sorry I dont want to sound like a know it all or something, I am not and I hope I don’t sound too pretentious!!… but I have spent a lot of time researching and studying these issues and I like to see what people think the obstacles are, because most of them are pretty easy to overcome. The hard part is getting council on board, not fellow citizens of our city who all want the same thing – a great transit system that works, not a white elephant!!
nope Mike, you don’t seem pretentious to me at all. You seem informed and interested in raising important issues and finding solutions that will make Halifax a better place to live.
Agreed Miles. I really appreciate your facts and input Mike1979. Just a cursory look at the maps in the phonebook suggested to me that this was feasible. The numbers you have provided make it seem reasonable. Since the council can suggest spending (potentially) $2bn on games, why can’t they get together and suggest spending $100 million (your number) on infrastructure that would alleviate a current issue and contribute a solution to future congestion. Holy foresight batman!!The population of Halifax peninsula can only grow up or out and when the building height limits are put into effect, it will only grow out. That means more people commuting and more congestion. An LRT would certainly help alleviate that problem.As an aside…I think the whole Fast Ferry fascination is just a romantic white elephant that council thinks would be ‘cool’ but they haven’t looked at practical applications or costs of this service, or the future. An LRT could always extend to Enfield or even Truro. The ferry can only go so far.
while i agree the ferry can only go so far… really, the answer has to be anything that doesnt use a road. Lrt, is sorta the same as the ferry in that it will have zero effect on existing traffic. The bedford highway, really there isnt much you can do with that interms of widening or whatever because the city doesnt own enough land to do this. Lots of tiny little peices of property jut out, or connect to that highway and that would require the city buying that land to make it one big long highway.the problem in this city is that tossing more busses really doesnt work, since there is no real room for street expansion or anything of the sort. Who ever decided how this place was going to be laid out 50 years ago, most likely didnt see this city was going to grow to this size. Only real suggestion to move people from outlying areas, to downtown, is anything other than vehicles that take roads.
Hey Homie,Yes I agree, as we inch towards peak oil (or away from depending on who you ask) investing tons of money to support our current single driver transport system is ridiculously short sighted, and will end up costing us all so much more in the long run.The nice thing about LRT is that they don’t necessarily need to run on oil unlike ferries, for example, Calgary powers their entire 45km LRT system on green energy (electricity from windmills). Also, at 1000 passengers a train, it would make pretty short work of any congestion problems Halifax can throw at it.I think the mayor and councilors need to get out and do a little traveling themselves this summer, travel to Boston, New York, Calgary to see how a real transit system works. Granted those are all massive cities with massive transit systems… But you’ve got to start somewhere.Smaller cities can afford to invest in LRT’s too – like Camden, NJ (pop 79,000) Charlotte NC (pop. 630,000) Little Rock, AK (pop 184,000) all have systems constructed in the past few years.I
Now that is what i like to hear. People that use vision. Now i would agree that the 1000 person vehicle would be great at peak times, at off times, that would be a long assed train with minimal people. Still better and faster than a bus. I sorta think the people/trip ratio on the ferry would be better in the course of a day. during peak times, the LRT clearly wins out. Over all however……ummmmm tough call. I would like to see how that would work out over an entire year say. However, lets just agree with the haligonians that adding more busses (which is really just putting a band aid on a broken leg) is a great idea. Then when they complain about how bad the roads are, or how they missed the bus, or busses are late, we can look at each other and know that we were going to say “told you so”
Hey Homie,The great thing about the “1000 person vehicle” is that it consists of a 4 car train – so at the rail yard – if the city had one – they can fit trains together to suit rush hour, or off peak, or weekend or what have you (1 car, 2 car, 3 car, whatever they need). It is really simple, and that is what other cities do. They have express trains that make limited stops, and local trains that stop at EVERY stop along the way (kind of like the Metro Link). There are so many different ways to tackle the problem, and as you said, they key is not to be traveling on the roads.Personally, I’d support a rise on bridge tolls to $2 if it meant that the new money was diverted towards rail infrastructure and not a third bridge!
no no mike, i am familiar with the Go train multi car system. More at peak, less cars at not. This having lived on the Lakeshore line. I just see the sales to these people out here being extremely difficult and sorta hard. The studies they have had make a ferry seem cheaper per run sorta thing that LRT.But like i said earlier, the entire thing would have to be studied. It would be close no doubt. If you had to establish a ranking between adding new buses, a ferry or and LRT and you made the criteria of Avg passengers per trip, cost per trip, cost to build or implement or construct, length of time to pay it self off, plus most likely customer satification per trip, i am sure that busses would fall dead last as no one wants to be the sucker that has to stand on a packed bus, especially from bedford. More busses, mean that on a snow day or should there be an accident (most likely to have been affected by traffic) more potential patrons would be so pissed by delays. The ferry and trains would have little excuses to be late. They arent affected by traffic, it would be the other given categories i would have to see before passing judgement on this.
I know public transit isn’t available to everyone, yourmom. However, when I’m on the bus in the a.m., 90% of the cars I see only contain the driver, no other passengers. If some of these people would take the bus, or actually carpool, maybe transit would actually run on time, and traffic would be reduced at rush hours. I suggested the London model, because it cut down on many folks driving into the core, thus cutting traffic jams and freeing up precious parking spaces. Sure, we’re not as populous as London, but their fee scheme seems to be working. ps. the bridge toll is not a fee for driving into Halifax.
Hi Vicky, re the “London Model” at 8 lbs/car/day… Thanks but uh…No we WONT be doing THAT
I don’t think we will need to adopt the London model, because thanks to economics, the free market will solve the single driver problem very soon. When gas hits $3 or $4 a liter, you’ll see a lot less of these people commuting by themselves to work in their SUV’s, I can guarantee!And with the lack of planning this city has undertaken in regards to tranist, we’ll all be in the “same boat”… fucked!
YAY! Go free market economics!
Homie and Mike1979, I came across this by accident (on the greater halifax partnership website) and remembered this thread and the debate about Homie’s notion that Haligonians are anti-change. http://www.greaterhalifax.com/site-ghp2/media/greaterhalifax/BOF_April21(3).pdfIt‘s a survey of Haligonians about their attitudes towards economic growth for halifax. It basically says that about 80% of haligonians think growth is essential for our continued success. Also, note that the stats on tall buildings indicate that we are more concerned with the aesthetics of the building than the height. I think this is an important point….we want to preserve and maintain the feel of our city while moving foward. This could explain some of the resistance to ideas like the twisted sisters.
This is what i have been getting at. People can want all this change, but they will fight over some of the most piddly shit and do it forever. The whole, “you cant see the harbor from the hill” argument will be brought up and fought FOREVER…… then some guy who loses a harborview, will sue someone or get an injunction this and that…. and some people agree this and others will agree that…. and the sun will come up and the sun will come down, and snow will come, then some heat, then some snow, then they will argue it again, then it will go infront of the utilities review board, then someone will lose and sue, then we will all talk about it again, then our kids will be posting about this shit….the library, them twisted sisters, the convention center, the cogswell turnpike, a new metro center, and the eye sore called shannon park all need to be replaced or built or built over. Not a chance that shit will be done by 2011
but hey, just them things and a stadium worthy of concerts or maybe a cfl team or the vanier cup or some big college games should smu or dal make it……..plus them facilites, when you add up the cost of all that shit when they actually do come around to having them done…. I PROMISE YOU that shit will be more than $1 Billion…….. of course i am adding in the salaries of the people that we elected to be debating this, the estimates and contracts tendered, the surveys and studies, the consultants that will be required prior to contracts and after contracts……sorta makes the games seem like a bargain…. of course Tim and the rest of the media leaves this out. Instead, lets complain and talk about it in front of city council for the next 5 years.
I think the people fighting are not always the ones advocating change…that is part of the problem. And Like mike said, it’s partly attributable to poor leadership. And I also think that Tim has a valid point in that hosting the games could have cost more than we could afford. Inflating the estimate by 300% is more than a cost overrun. You may be right that those facilities could not be built faster or for less money, but that does not mean they can not be built at all. Sometimes the pace here can be frustrating, but that is not something unique to Nova Scotia. It happens at all levels of government and in a lot of different places. Also, Nova Scotia is not exactly lagging behind. We are 3% of the national population, produce just shy of 3% of the national GDP, are 7th provincially in terms of population and 7th in terms of our economy. We are precisely where I would expect us to be. Sure, we could do better than just average, but we are not lagging far.
you should go to like page 6 or 7 and read the thread. I have read your arguement, but the fact is that the longer you wait, the more unaffordable they will become. The facilities arent going to get better and the tape and glue jobs arent going to last forever. the other thing to consider is this….. you are looking at the cost as something you have to pay up front, yes that does sound huge. However, what isnt factored is that the Feds will increase what they have contributed. They have to EVERY other games that have been hosted in this country. They have contributed more or less depending on the province. They havent turned thier backs on any bid EVER. Why act like this would be any different? It might be bad to assume, but the track record of how the feds have reacted to a poor performance at any games by tossing the tons of extra cash that they are…..look at the fact that medalists are getting paid cash for medals, athletes are getting a stipend to train. If you want to waste the money of the tax payers, wait and replace the facilities that a society needs. Name one big city in North America that has less than 5 arenas, no major arena, no stadium, no major facilility. There isnt one that has at least 300 000.
so far you have told me what cant be done, but has any one tabled a solution that is cheaper? The leadership is always in question. There is not a single leader that has been able to please the masses. This city seems to have a million mayors and many of them tell ya what CANT be done but have no viable solution or response to the point tabled…… in this case the games or the ferry.
I never said the games COULDN’T be done. Lots of people agree it could have. My only comment along those lines was questioning if we had the population to support the facilities after the games left. Someone else decided it wasn’t going to go ahead. Everyone on here generally agrees with you that that would be the most economically viable way to get those kinds of facilities to Halifax and we may have missed a golden opportunity there. There may not be a solution that is cheaper. But the games ain’t coming, so we have to find another way. Now that we don’t have the games, we also have to reevaluate if we need all of those facilites and if we need them all at once. Especially now that they are going to be more expensive and we won’t have federal help. This is the current reality.
Reality is that we need our arenas fixed. Arenas are big for tourism. Tournaments and conventions.We need a large arena to lure world class events and keep Halifax as a world class city. We need satellite arenas simply because all cities have them, it is a part of Canadian society to have hockey. We need gyms and tracks as our kids health depends on these facilities. Many Scotians like sidney crosby and others, many kids have gotten a scholarship and education paid for from skills learned. A society’s physical health depends on these things. Now that we have lost the games because we refused to look at the examples and realized that just letting these people work is the way….. it might be hard to realize they might have a clue…. and let them work. I vote for the person best to represent me, for me to undermine him like Tim and that article tried to do over every little thing…. makes voting pointless. Its like calling the person that i voted to most honest a habitual liar.
“If you want to waste the money of the tax payers, wait and replace the facilities that a society needs. Name one big city in North America that has less than 5 arenas, no major arena, no stadium, no major facilility. There isnt one that has at least 300 000.”I just wiki’d this and Halifax isn’t doing too bad. There are only 12 canadian cities between 200000 and 800000 people (~1/2 to 2 times the size of Halifax) Of those, StCathrine’s/Niagra, Oshawa, Victoria and Windsor are within the 300000 people range (Halifax is ~373,000). The major hockey/basketball arena’s for these cities (all 12) range in seating capacity size from ~9100 (London) to 17,400 (Quebec city) with Halifax Metro Center at ~10,000. The average capacity is around 12-13,000 so Halifax is doing OK, especially when you consider that most of the cities of comparable size to Halifax lie in southern Ontario where about 20% of the country’s population is within a few hours drive of each other making it a lot easier to fill these venues regularly. When it comes to Stadiums, the huskie’s stadium at St Mary’s is of comparable size (9000-11000) or larger than those in similar sized cities except for Winnipeg, Regina, and Hamilton (30-50,000), the only 3 cities on the list with CFL teams. Also, A quick check lists at least 20 ice rinks for skating in HRM with several (Forum, Dartmouth sportsplex, Dal memorial arena and SMU alumni arena) seating between 1000-5,600 people. As for a major facility, I guess the metro center fills that bill too. So, you might be right, there may not be a city in North America over 300000 with less than 5 arenas, no major arena, no stadium and no major facility. If there is, Halifax is NOT that city. If you lump Halifax into that category, than a lot of other cities will fall into that heap too. Again, I am not saying Halifax does not need to invest in some infrastructure. It really really does. I just want to point out that Halifax is doing OK, even compared to other cities our size using only the facilities criteria. I want to see Haifax be a world class city with above average performance on all fronts. A lot of Haligonians do too. There will no doubt be more frustrations and disappointments ahead for this city, but I am sure there will be lots of successes as well. So, thanks Homie for getting me interested enough to look into the issue, now I am even more confident that Halifax is doing well and has the potential to thrive. Let’s hope the next big opportunity like the games does not get passed by.
First off, the cities mentioned with arenas, all got an arena within the last 5 years. Ones that will last at least 50 years each. The metro center has LONG outlasted its use. London’s arena is disqualified for the purpose of world class events since it is usually at the mercy of whether Toronto bids or not. Halifax being the only city in the area, should only be compared to Winnepegs new arena. Also, pretty much any concert that is held in London, is also held at the ACC in toronto the next night.a quick check of the arenas on your list. Have you seen the Sportsplex arena? ewwwww clearly you havent seen the public facilites in ontario or elsewhere? You may have 5 years tops outta the forum, shannon park and that nasty assed one in fairview. Your Smu staduim? That wasnt even considered a possibility when the thought of bringing a CFL franchise to Halifax. That place is antiquated. When they do have the CFL come for the Exhibition game it is not liked by CFL brass. They love the fans, but the stadium isnt an option for them to make a regular stop in. Have you been able to find a complete 8 lane track in this city? Me neither. Your Metro Center? Many tours bypass this city as the trouble to reconfigure thier set ups to the small arena is a problem. London’s New John Labbat Center is ahead of its time for arenas that size. its configuration allows it to not lose many of the seats because of the site lines it provides. Have you been to the Metro Center? It really only holds about 8000 for concerts. The seats there are very cramped. A tall person is screaming in pain afterwards. The seats at the top few rows cant see the scoreboard. While it will do for a few years, it has seen its day. Other cities are building thiers because these small cities are cashing in on these just under major league sized arena tours. the cirque de soliers, and the likes….many do come, but there is many more. look how close to toronto, london is, amazing that it can compete for events so close to toronto which has 3 arenas the size of the metro center, hamilton, kitchener, guelph all in between with arenas the same size and it manages 200 dates a year, simply because it is so new and equipped for all the modern needs of concerts, sporting events, festivals, shows…. and the likes.
by the way. I like conversation like this that can be had minus insults. People take this shit way too personal.
Homie, I have a link for you too. A analysis of the bid that suggests that the infrastructure investments may not have been a good idea for halifax anyway. http://www.policyalternatives.ca/documents/Nova_Scotia_Pubs/2007/Halifax_Commonwealth_Games_Bid.pdf
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2008/04/23/5364421-sun.htmlthis is the example of what happens when a city is well run, and the people there get shit done. Again, when i state examples of how someone or somewhere else did it….. London was worse off than this city when i moved there in 90. They had an aging arena, a dying downtown, and facilities that were just so outdated. Diccico and Gosnell, the last two mayors, they got a new arena, a new stadium that was a joint venture with the UWO and the city, they have a new convention center, a new world class pool, 3 new schools, 1 ever expanding college, a transit system that is not taking NEARLY as much as this city is from the public coffers as ridership is at an all time high, they have a new public market that is as big as your metro center……All of this was decided years ago, and was fought by few as they realized they couldnt toss a band aid on the situation and these things needed to get done. Now you go to that article. Nice problem to have huh?Before you think that being close to other cities helps, think this, other cities like windsor, niagra falls, sarnia and kitchener arent able to say they have surpluss.
Excellent article you linked me to.However, much like the biased nonsesne that Tim wrote, this article failed to address any success cases. It failed to show any of the positives. It failed to show anything that a paticular society might have benefitted from said games. Noticable omissions? Calgary games things were kept to a minimum. Sydney games were kept to a minimum, mexican pan am games, edmonton’s pan am games. An article like yours looked specifically for negative effects. Would you like to see 200 articles that show the positive effects? Notice, this was written by people from the area.
its funny the best part about the entire article is that it doesnt offer a solution that is realistic.take a look at all that bullshit they have said about shannon park. If you think anything will be done about that eyesore between now and 2015, you are fucked….. this city is the biggest delay EVER. The article made suggestions, now watch how long it will take to implement them.the other thing about the article…. it doesnt really use the track record of the length of delay VS the aging of facilities in this city. It will take longer to get shit done because of the negativity or people that think they know better than the professionals that do this shit for a living. It was also bias in that it used that cost/benefit analysis but never gave what is an acceptable medium for that ratio. We are just to take what they say as gospel……… so you know that is the same shit that Tim did with his article.