Anyone else think it is unwise to allow people to raise chickens in thier backyard in the city? I am all for green initiatives and sustainability, but I don’t think farm animals belong in the city, they belong in, well, farms.
I don’t know how much of an issue the rats actually are, but let us all remember that the current issue with newly emerging and often deadly influenza strains is a result of people living with their animals. Birds and humans and pigs in China, all sharing the same space and swapping germs leads to the emergence of these new viral strains. Add to that the rapid transmission from host to host that can occur in a densely populated urban setting and you have a recipe for disaster.
If you want fresh, ethically sourced eggs, go to the farmer’s market. If you want to live like a farmer, go buy a farm. Cities are not barnyards.
This article appears in Feb 28 – Mar 5, 2008.
Not to mention that chicken shit has to be the Fowl-est (groan) smelling kind of shit. Who wants that in thier backyard?
Good point about the chicken shit, even in the cold of winter it is fucking nasty. It’s about time someone brought up the health issues, bird feces is wrought with all kinds of diseases not to mention certain strains of cancers that really mess people up.
Uh, what do you know about China??? Have you ever fucking lived there because I did. “Birds and humans and pigs in China, all sharing the same space and swapping germs leads to the emergence of these new viral strains”… Right, I really think birds, animals and humans are swapping germs in China, asshole!If you have a fucking problem to the way things are done in China, why don’t you look at the macro level inequalities of globalization that essentially force countries like China to adopt (in some cases) less then ideal manufacturing practices- which leads to lead in toys, etc.I’m disgusted by your assumption that Chinese people are unhygenic and dirty. You sound like a fucking racist from 1900.
Woah there Lynn! I didn’t get the impression that the poster was calling Chinese people unhygenic or dirty. They may not have put it very well, but what they say is pretty much true. Traditional farming practices in many asian countries (and other countries around the world too) involve raising a variety of birds and other animals, such as pigs, on the same property and in very close proximity to each other. Animals act as resevoirs for human viruses all the time. The additional problem with Influenza virus specifically is that pigs are a resevoir for human AND avian viruses. When a pig is infected with both types of virus at the same time you they can produce a mutant virus that can jump species and infect humans. Many new viruses emerge from Asian countries partually because their traditional farming practices facilitate the jump from one species to the next. There was no implication there that Chinese people are dirty.And humans swap germs with birds and pigs here too, but it generally happens on farms where the population density is low enough that outbreaks can be more easily controlled.I think the poster has a good point about the health concerns surrounding backyard farming, which until now I haven’t seen them raised. People seem all too willing to jump on the green-sustainability-environmental bandwagon that they would ignore a potentially serious health risk. And besides all that, I’ll say it again….chicken shit really stinks.
China was never forced to fill the world with sub-par and unsafe products, China did that all on it’s own. If you are referring to unfair importexport laws than you should note that China practices those same unfair practices and by tonnage they are far more unfair with how much they allow into their own markets. I personally believe that China should be embargoed until it came do several things:1.Enact and Enforce a product safety commission that has actual power to force factories to observe standardized safety practices2.Pay their workers a fair wage in line with western standards.3.Ensure the safety of those same workers by enacting and enforcing an Employee Insurance system.You see the reason China’s economy is doing so well is that it is operating in a market where the majority of producers are forced to observe the basics listed above and that in doing so add costs to the production of their products, but China doesn’t so their product is significantly cheaper. It is absolute idiocy that this is considered a free and fair market, the only thing this will accomplish is the further erosion of of local economy and our ability to produce for ourselves. Just wait, in 10-15 years when our entire industrial fabrication abilities are outsourced or bought out and disassembled to be sold overseas, we will be royally screwed.
Miles, as much as I ususally love your comments, I just think that If the OP wanted to discuss backyard farming, he/she should have kept it to a backyard context rather than pointing to a country that is all to often scape-goated for its farming and industrial practises as well as the transmission of disease- come on, the fucking OP said that Chinese people “swap germs” with animals which creates viral disease! Maybe its the field I am in, but I have a serious problem with people who resort to historically very racist comments in order to “legitimate” their claims. It is this type of uneducated finger pointing which perpetuates stereotypes. Remember when people blamed Africa for AIDS, only to turn discover that it actually originated in America? Haha, I love the whole “western standards of wage” argument… Christopher, you sound a tad ethnocentric. As far as blaming China for what goes on in its manufacturing plants, you may want to look up the definitions of post-colonialism and economic imperialism. As a matter of fact, many developing nations ARE “forced” to engage in cost cutting measures- at a risk to the consumer and the worker- in the name of competition. If they aren’t competitive, the corporation who has employed the services of the factory (for example) will leave, and where does that leave the workers? It doesn’t make it right, and China also has a responsibility to protect its citizens but those are further issues of globalization that would take too much time to get into here.
I’ve taught Asian kids and they are most certainly very clean people, cleaner than some Canadians I might add. But as for the chickens in the city, I see no problem with it, she keeps them in her yard, keeps them clean no problem. End of storey. I mean we put up with drunken people downtown vomiting all over the place and that is more sanitary than chickens? Let’s be reasonable folks, if she is keeping the animals to herself , not letting them run wild and clean why bitch about it?
Lynn, after rereading your last comment and the original post, I can understand you anger at the OP a little better, but I still think there was no racist intent behind the post….but whether or not we agree on this is really that important anyway. YOU see racism there so it is likely others will as well, which makes the issues you raise about the post very important and I coudln’t agree with you more about that. My comments are not coming from the perspective that Chinese people are to blame for anything. They just happen to live in a part of the world where these diseases emerge and there are some changes they could make to their farming practices that could minimize the very natural process of virus evolution.This post is actually pretty close to my field of work and there are some valid points there with respect to backyard farming that are worth looking beyond any racist undertones to see. There might actually be a health risk with backyard farming. New influenza strains DO emerge from Asian countries, in part because of the migratory patterns of birds, and in part because of traditional farming practices. However, as poultry farming in Asia adopts a more western-style “factory farming” approach we are seeing more outbreaks of influenza in these larger facilities as well. Plus, Chicken Shit REALLY stinks. Just aweful, aweful stuff. As to the AIDS thing, the last reports I have read still place the origins of HIV in Africa (somewhere around cameroon) in about 1930 when the SIVcpz virus was transmitted to humans and became known as HIV many years later with the first major cases appearing in the US around 1980 (which might be the America connection you were talking about). This, of course has nothing to do with the plethora of lame reasons people have blamed africans for and has everything to do with the fact that HIV was first transmitted to Humans from chimpanzees, which are notably scarce in America. And for the globalization can of worms that was opened up, thank you both Christopher and Lynn for starting a discussion that is not entirely about smegma and fat people, although those are fun too. SMEGMA. always makes me giggle. Sorry about the book everyone
Damn, we could have some good conversations Miles… You’re absolutely right, as much as we may have approached this topic differently, its nice to actually talk about something that’s a bit more important than farts, yeast infections, fat people, ugg boots and cigarettes. It’s also cool to be able to get into good debates without all the name calling and immature bullshit.Bad experience with chicken shit?Cheers!
Not only does chicken shit stink like hell, but like all bird feces it contains some pretty bad spores that can cause all kinds of crazy illnesses. Cancer comes to mind but there are many others. “…The owner can keep them clean and in her yard…” but anyone down wind of the shit pile is getting a whiff if the nastyness as well as a tonne of toxins. Does any one in her area have a compromised immune system? How about some toxoplasmoisis when you breath or maybe a touch of cancer in your nasal cavities that makes your eyes tear with blood when ever you have them open?There is a reason why the keeping of livestock and poultry are not allowed in halifax, except where roosts/pens are grandfathered in; where direct decendants of original farm owners have kept a working farm (in some state of existance) continuously, ie. the “Urban” farm near Rockingstone.
If that door opens, it will be open to livestock in general, not just chickens.In my infinitely rose-coloured live-and-let-live fantasy world, I figured she’s not bothering anyone, and bird feeders would attract rats just as chicken feed would, so the argument against chickens in the city, using the rat attraction scenario, seemed like a stretch.I thought about it a little more, and listened to the owner of the chickens talk about sustainability (on the news) and how she “shouldn’t have to live on a farm to grow (your) own food”. I guess that should be a basic human right, eh? If you want to provide yourself with organic food, or free-range eggs, and know exactly what is in your food, you should have that legal right, if you have the property… shouldn’t you? Then I thought about farms, and why they are situated so far apart, and it made much more sense.As much as I want to believe she is probably one of the only people in the city who actually wants to do this, she isn’t. There are people just like her waiting for the precedent to be set, so that they can do the same thing. This might be why city council is tied in a knot. They’re envisioning city backyards with chickens, pigs, goats. I actually overheard someone say they hope they can get a little goat for their backyard. People can ‘grow’ any food in their garden that they want, but farm animals belong on farms. Nobody owns horses in the city for travel purposes so that they can save on gas. I hope that last part doesn’t give anyone any ideas, lol…
Couldn’t agree more Beav. This situation looks pretty easy on the surface…green, sustainable, getting back to the good ol’ days, ethically sourced food….very trendy and hip right now. But this is a city that thinks cats are a nuisance. How will these same people feel about the smells and noise that barnyard animals bring to the city?And as for the sustainability thing..I’m not really sure how “green” raising your own food actually is. The 3 chickens in your backyard still eat just as much food as the 3 you didn’t eat off the farm. They produce the same amount of waste too, and drink the same amount of water. How is that more sustainable? And as inhumane as factory farming is, think of the problems if you tried to put the 14,000 chickens in one barn on free range…it would take a whole lot more land…which is what is happening if you move those chickens to backyards. As for the “You shouldn’t have to live on a farm to grow your own food” thing, if you are growing your own food, you pretty much have yourself a farm. I used to work for a rural family that was trying to be sustainable and they had a plot of earth with veggies, a few fruit trees, a pond stocked with trout and a small, smelly chicken coup. They also had acres of land and could only provide a fraction of the food they needed for themselves. Urban centers can’t sustain themselves…citizens of a city need more than their postage stamp of land to sustain themselves….they need the productivity of large rural areas to properly sustain themselves. Now the HRM is huge and there are definately people living in places with poulation densities low enough to be able to raise livestock…these people should not be over looked. Maybe they can bring thier goods into the farmers market for the townies to enjoy more ethically raised organic food.
LOL @ Beav. “…Nobody owns horses in the city for travel purposes so that they can save on gas…”It’s been a while but the last time I looked at this (yeah I’m a geek and a fountain of useless information), but I think horses are actually permitted modes of transportation in Halifax which take right of way after pedestrians but before bicycles. I think it was actually a bylaw that was never removed. It was about 7-8 years ago that I checked though.Heh, just imaging though! LOL.
Any pet is a farm animal. Dogs are farm animals. Let’s not look at dogs though. How about Pot Belly Pigs. All i can remember is seeing pigs on farms. It’s amazing that i occasionally see pigs tied to leashes here in the city walking down the street in the summer. I remember at one time a teacher brought her pig to school. If pigs are farm animals and are allowed to stay in the city. Chickens should. What the hell are our politicians doing sitting there wasting time and OUR TAX MONEY on crap like that. I’m sure there are more sever issues to look at like bad COPS in the city, Homeless, Improving health care, Terrible roads, Better Tourism and economy. What, these issues require more work than telling someone how they feel about chickens? If someone is allowed to keep a dog, cat, bird, pigeons as house pets in the city, chickens should stay. I used to raise chickens when i was younger. Never in my life i saw rats or even mice around them. Whomever complained about rats, well maybe you should look at YOUR living condition before looking at others. I lived at a building once before that had rodent issues and we never had any pets in the building. They were not allowed. Now imagine how the problem would have been solved had they allowed cats in the building. My opinion anyway. Chickens should stay. They’re not harming anyone and it’s not like she’s trading. It’s only 2 freaking Chickens!
Also i forgot to add the HORSE RIDING CLUB smack in the middle of downtown. Last time i checked, horses were farm animals! I guess only rich people are allowed to have their way. If you’re rich and can afford to put a horse stable in the middle of the city so be it. If you’re middle class or lower you can’t as much as own 1 harmless chicken that produces way less waste than a horse!
A pet is not a farm animal, even if they are the same animal. A barn cat is not the same as a house cat. They are typically not treated the same and many of the barn cats I have seen are quite feral. A pet pot bellied pig is not the same as hog you raise for food. A pet chicken is not going to be treated the same way as a chiken raised for eggs or food. You typically keep pets indoors. You form bonds with pets that you don’t form with your food. If you want to keep 2 or 3 chickens in your house as pets, power to you. When you stick them in your yard to produce eggs for you, they are livestock. Different story. Now don’t take that to mean I am totally against chickens in the city or anything…I haven’t really made up my mind yet. I just think there are some health risks that should be considered (an I admit the risk is probably pretty low) and I don’t think I buy the sustainability arguement. Also, backyard animals may be “harming” others in that they can affect the way a neighbour enjoys his/her property if the backyard farm is noisy, smelly, dirty etc. And the Horses are kept in a STABLE, not in someone’s back yard. And they do kinda stink once in a while, do you want that all over the city? I really don’t think this is a class issue.
I agree with you Miles, at the same time, anyone can turn their backyard into a stable. Why would the city allow that? Creating a small hen house in you’re backyard produces less waste, it’s less stinky and i don’t really think it causes that much of an issue. I never thought pigs were pets regardless of what kind of pig it is. That’s just my opinion. I personally wouldn’t keep a pig in my house that’s for sure, nor a chicken, nor a dog as a matter of fact. I used to own a barn cat. Any cat can be a barn cat. Any cat that wonders outdoors is a barn cat. If there’s a barn near where the car resides, the cat will wander over and mingle. Farmers let their dogs sleep in the same house they sleep in and not necessarily in the barn. I think it’s a touchy issue and it all depends on the person’s opinions. I personally also think it’s a matter of class issues. What if it was one of the politicians who did that? What if it was one of their friends? I think the situation would have been dealt with differently, if ever brought up. People can use common sense and things can be regulated. Like you just can’t raise a cow or have some goats and sheep running around. Those animals need more space and certainly more equipment and due to zoning regulations, you can’t allow that in the city. 2-3 chickens don’t constitute a farm. If the lady builds a hen house on her backyard and it’s always clean and no problems arise from it (only 1 neighbour in the entire neighbourhood complained) I don’t see a problem with it.
I can see how this could get out of hand. Some people do not take care of things as good as others. The perception of a problem changes from person to person.
coyotex i agree hon, what about the riding club in the middle of the city are they going to ask the horses to move too?
Animal Farm is cute. I adore animals, just as long as it is located within a farming community. Did you hear what most of us are saying? First, you start with 3 chickens, then a partridge, then 4 French hens (different kinds, not American,lol), then it’s 5 golden cows, or whatever. Hmm, can anyone help me with this? I can’t seem to remember my Days of Christmas :)Sorry, eco-consciousness does not include stinking up my neighbourhood with fowl manure (bad pun). I can go to the farm when I want to pet a goat. Mooo, I mean Nooooo! 😛