I’ve worked just as hard as the rest of my class in college this year. Out of the 17 of us, there are 5 female students. But just because they are women means they get jobs that I am not even allowed to apply for. What the fuck!
This womens right this has gone too far… why can’t the employer just decide who is more qualified?
—Pissed off Environmental Tech
This article appears in Mar 26 – Apr 1, 2009.
I agree. Be glad you are not a single man on disability at the hands of Community Services then you would really understand what discrimination/ lack of rights are all about. Trying to go back to school through Community Services being a single guy on disability was a nightmare for me. Hope your luck improves man.
I want to know which jobs you’re “not even allowed to apply for” over gender. Not too many companies can legally discriminate… maybe if they do placements for actors or if they need a social worker suitable for an all-girls-school or whatever. But really, unless you want to be a Hooter’s girl (and I wonder about discriminating hiring practices there) where else can a company legally discriminate against gender?
As for the OP’s general conclusion, “This woman’s rights [thing] has gone too far” I completely disagree. I’ve been working under a glass ceiling for the entirety of my professional career, almost 20 years. Woman’s rights have come a long way but still not nearly far enough.
umm womens rights going too far? try being a woman, working the SAME job as a man, and getting half the salery!
try applying for a teaching position as a woman, men can walk into the position, women? NOPE
just bc one came upon 1 situation ur crying about it?! Maybe you need to Grow some Balls!
“I completely disagree. I’ve been working under a glass ceiling for the entirety of my professional career,”
It most likely has more to do with your complaining attitudes, then your gender.
No free passes, just because you complain the most.
There’s probably more to this than the OP is letting on.
Did it ever occur to you that they might want the women because they won’t have to pay them as much? “This” women’s rights thing has gone to far? Would you also say that the fight against racism and discrimination has gone “too far”? What an ignorant fuck.
Kay – I work in the public service (federal government) on the PS job posting website, it clearly states at the bottom of course that if you are a member of a visible minority (women are included). that you should clearly state it on your application. If that is not discrimination then I dont know what is. Imagine if it said clearly state if you are a white male, there would be lawsuits ans protests to no end. And to “umpiressaid” as far as women earning less than men i believe most companies set there saleries according to experience along with your position, but if women are “clearly stating that they are a visible minority” and companies forced to abide by employment equity requirements then they are getting hired based on gender and not EXPERIENCE no wonder they get payed less, because the white guy next to you probably was hired to to his marketability and experience.
heres some references; his is a job posting https://psjobs-emploisfp.psc-cfp.gc.ca/psr… , and this is the public service definition of a “visible minority” http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/centres/definiti…
Unacknowledged privilege is always a bit of a larf. Having said that, I’ve come to believe is that in a patriarchal society, no one really “wins.”
By the way bud, referring to “this women’s rights thing” is not really doing yourself any favours. It’s not like it’s some freakish anomaly that’s going to go away.
Idiots can work hard, too. With lesser results, of course.
If you’re a woman or a visible minority or another desingated group, yeah, you will probably be given higher priority for hiring, regardless of experience. Most companies take this into consideration – some willingly, many are legally obliged to. But, as Gustav said, your PAY should reflect your EXPERIENCE.
So, Unimpressed, you should be thankful you have a job where at least you’re making something. There are no doubt plenty of more qualified people turned down for the job that you’re making less money doing.
If you truly are as qualified, and in the same organizational position as your fellow (white male) employees, but getting paid less than you have every right to complain – it is illegal for any company to do so. Just don’t think you’re getting paid less because you’re a female – it’s almost definitely not the case.
The reason some organisations, such as government headed ones, try to have more women, disabled people or visable minorities working for them, is so that they can level the playing field a bit. We all start out at different rungs on a ladder. Some of us are a bit ahead or a bit behind, through no fault of our own, perhaps we come from disadvantaged circumstances, or have to take care of younger, infirm or older relatives. Many workplaces try to recognise this and will then use their power to hire people who are capable workers who may need help getting up a rung or two on that ladder. The glass ceiling does exist, but mainly because women often have caregiving responsibilities that often forces them to take on positions that require flexible work schedules or less hours. If a woman (or man) takes years off of work to raise their infant, then that time takes away from their work experience, cpp, ei, etc. This often leads to less pay, less important positions, less chance of promotion, etc. Many older women are impoverished, and not from living a life of laziness, but because they sacrificed what could have been “paid time with benefits” to look after their children or relatives. Let’s give people who are potentially down a few rungs on the ladder a leg up when we can.
What’s wrong with trying to level the playing field? Sometimes I think that everyone should take a few Sociology credits at university. Seriously.
Lilac – I agree with most of what you said, exept there are white males that are just as disadvantaged due to injuries suffered in the labour and trades industry, (mainly dominated by white males). they lose pensionable time and experience. And I can assure you that on the job injuries in this industry happen just as much if not more than women getting preganant does.
This doesn’t only happen to men, my friend. There are lots of jobs I’m not allowed to apply for because I’m not a visible minority.
It *is* kind of frustrating, I have to say. Lilac, while you make some decent points, I think the majority of the “leveling the playing field” argument it a bunch of bullshit. Quotas and racially/gender-based positions only work against “equality” in the end. I’m a woman and I certainly wouldn’t want to get a position over a man who’s just as qualified because I have a vagina. Sure I’d like to get the job, but not based on how I was born. And there sure as hell people out there who (and I will admit rightfully so) will resent their co workers and make the work environment tough for them because they believe they’re not qualified and just got the job because of how they were born. While that may or may not be true (usually isn’t true — minorities hired for positions are often very qualified candidates), there’s a stigma attached to that kind of position. I certainly wouldn’t want my co workers to think I got a job because I have a vagina and I’m not qualified for the position. I want to be recognized for my qualifications, skills and abilities, not my genitalia.
(and yes, soc was my minor and at one point a double major, so I *have* taken a few soc credits)
Wage discrimination is alive and well in Canada, whether it is legal or not. A report I heard on CBC Radio in 1999 stated that women, on average, made 75% of the male dollar. Just earlier this year it was reported that women in Canada are now making even less.
I’m sorry I cannot remember the report name, but it was comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. An acquaintance of mine is a manager for the largest bank in Canada and it is common knowledge that female managers are paid less than the male managers. The women’s rights “thing” obviously hasn’t gone far enough.
I think the real success for the feminist movement in the past is that the newer generations are aware of the issues. It’s naturally going to be a long fight to achieve equality, but the only fair way to do it, is to continually work to raise awareness of injustices. In a lot of ways affirmative action works to undermine the support of the young white men for the workplace equality of women and minorities.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with making it a goal to have your workforce reflect the diversity in the general population. However, it is completely unfair to hire someone less qualified over someone more qualified. Only if two applicants have similar qualifications should the issue of gender or race or whatever come into play.
As a woman and a working mother I must throw up a huge middle digit to you POET. Are you seriously going to cry about not getting a job because you are a man? Reality check #1- the reason that there are hiring incentives is because since the beginning of the industrial revolution (minus a few years when you brave men were off at war) men and more specifically white men were the ONLY ones being considered for most jobs. Reality check #2 – If women’s rights has come so far than how come every women I know works full time and still has to take care of ALL household responsibilities (Since you probably don’t even know what that means I’ll elaborate -making all your meals, doing all your dishes, cleaning up after you every day, washing all your clothes and putting up with all your bullshit!) Hiring incentives may just be our only one up in this whole male dominated world so bite me POET. If your angry cause you can’t find a job blame your C- average and not all women cause you know what you owe your life to us -LITERALLY
I read an article in Macleans I think that women in general when being interviewed for a job and asked what they expect there salary or wage to be, on average they respond with a dollar amount %25 or %30 less than men ask for. I guess you have to ask for what you want ladies.
“making all your meals, doing all your dishes, cleaning up after you every day, washing all your clothes and putting up with all your bullshit!)”
These are all choices you made. And in no way were they forced upon you.
Franko… I am a man, live on my own, go to school, cook all my food, clean all my dishes/house/laundry and everything else… oh and someone once said that the world is run by C students……. so take THAT!
And what a great world it is.
I think there’s more to this story.
I just love the silly generalizations in these comments. First of all, my wife makes more money than me and I also work in an office where 90% of the managers are women. Although it may be true that there may be wage discrimination in some sectors, I have to believe that these are in the minority. And Franko, as for your comment on daily household chores, I actually do most, or at least equally, of the chores around the house. So again, stick with the facts and don’t generalize
I think Balls should find something better to do, like work on growing up.
BRoc – Franko’s comment was about the women she knows and their situation, not about you. And I fail to see why listing off other facts about your own personal situation are relevant either, when you’re trying to make it seem like they mean something. Yeah, your wife makes more than you. But who was saying “all individual men make more than all women?” If you’d said your wife makes more than you for doing the same job as you and having the same qualifications, then maybe it would be relevant? Also, for every workplace like yours I can probably name 10 others where (white) men have the top jobs. I guess it must be because they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and everyone else is just lazy.
Hey Miles,
I agree with most of your comment, though there are many women I encounter who really don’t seem to be educated as to what’s really going on. Some of which I’ve encountered here on many occassions. Thanks for being a voice of reason.
I would like to say that many men do support their families and act as the main caretakers and deal with family and household chores at the same time as working. As I said in my earlier post, I mentioned that it could be men or women who are the major caregiver. I have known many men who are excellent parents and quite capable of running their home. I would also like to say that ANYONE in that position would end up having to take a job that would require a flexible schedule and may have to take off large periods of time from work, perhaps even years at a time to fulfill their familial responsibilities. If they did so then they would more than likely end up with less pay, promotions, benefits, e.i., cpp. etc. than someone with less familial obligations. In our present society, it is often women who tend to be in this particular position, but not always.
I work in a field where most of the managers are women. I had no problem at all getting a job, and I’ve never had a problem getting the next job / promotion, etc.
I’ve also received many raises and I make more than double what I made 10 years ago. The thing is I ask for raises, and I gently push the process to make sure I am being properly considered for that raise.
I’ve spoken with many of my female colleagues about this, and here is what I’ve discovered (anecdotally). They don’t ask for raises! They’re afraid to. Despite the fact that in my field it would be virtually impossible to get fired unless you killed someone, they have this fear that asking for a raise will make them look bad, and they’ll be gradually shoved out for their demands.
I’m not sure if this fear is a female thing or a cultural thing, but in my experience (mine, not everyone’s), the difference between male and female salaries (in my field) has pretty much been due to who will ask and who won’t.
Every few years there’s a management salary review and everyone is brought up to a similar level, but then the men slowly get ahead again, because they ask and the women are afraid to.
Can’t say that’s in every field, but it’s what i’ve seen in mine.
If you work in the public sector men and women make the same money at the same position. If you work in a unionised place mena nd women make the same money.
The comparison between what men and women make is erroneous because it is not a comparioson of apples and apples.
In summary, the 75% figure is rubbish but is used for political purposes and tossed around by people who do not know what they are talking about. Jammie hits the nail on the head, men ask for more than a woman when applying for a for a postioon in the non unionised private sector.
I’ve worked in office situations for over 35 years and during that time, I never had a problem with any male because I didn’t let emotions rule my logic. I not only got a lot of respect but some pretty sizable raises because I demanded them and could name a number of reasons why I was worth it. I was lucky, I guess, to have that kind of confidence as a young female but I never experienced the glass ceiling per se. Part of my charm, I think, was the fact I could outgross any man – no sexist remark could offend me because I knew they were just being knuckle draggers. But if they tried anything of a sexual nature (and they did), they got socked literally for their troubles. When I said no, I fucking meant NO and a swift kick to the peanuts.
Thanks for the backup Joeblow. But I actually work in the heavily unionized public sector (albeit in management), and the same principles still apply. Even the “step” you’re offered on the union / public service commission scales can be negotiated at hiring, and there is always opportunity for reclassification if your responsibilities increase, and if you ask for it
I’ve also seen my unionized colleagues fare much more poorly in terms of requested / deserved wage increases because there’s so much “process” to go through, but that’s a whole other argument.