Rachael Smith-Bakhache won’t be dragging around her kids for H1N1 shots this
week. And not anytime after that, either.
“It’s my choice,” says the 38-year-old mother of two. “And I don’t
think I have to stand up and tell you why it’s my choice.”
But she will, if you ask.
And explaining why her family won’t be vaccinated against H1N1
influenza is easy for Smith-Bakhache, because her reasons aren’t the
most obvious and easily refuted—too busy to stand in line, too pissed
off about the seeming lack of organization, too lame to Google clinic
locations and times.
Smith-Bakhache says, simply: “There are other ways.”
Neither of Smith-Bakhache’s kids—an 11-year-old girl and a boy
just past one—has ever been vaccinated. Not for mumps, rubella,
polio. None of it.
“We are a holistic family. We have been right from the get-go.”
Smith-Bakhache replaces immunizations with a host of other tactics;
the same ones she’ll keep up, or even ramp up, instead of lining up for
an H1N1 poke. She does homeopathy, uses natural remedies and practices
homegrown immunity-boosting—she lists breastfeeding her one-year-old,
giving her daughter limited amounts of sugar and dairy products, plus
supplements like garlic pills and feeding everyone fresh vegetables and
natural meats.
“Some parents think that’s not going to matter,” says
Smith-Bakhache. “But it’s little steps. [It’s like] saving the
environment—turn your lights off. It adds up.”
Smith-Bakhache can’t understand why parents will pony up their kids
for a vaccination when they don’t bother with everyday measures to keep
them healthy—she cites sending them to school without proper
clothing, “with a lunch that is full of sugar. Even dairy products,
that is something I do not do. Sending your children to school with a
healthy lunch is very important. They need fresh vegetables. They need
lots of fresh water.”
But there’s a bigger piece of pandemic preparedness that goes along
with all of Smith-Bakhache’s baby steps and everyday actions.
“I am always keyed into my children,” she says. “I have watched [my
daughter’s] behaviour, her diet, just keying into, and being focused
on, my children and not being too busy within my own life.”
That’s what people should be spending time thinking about,
Smith-Bakhache says. “I mean, why are people putting so much thought
into [the vaccine]?”
If you ask other parents to answer that question, they will likely
cite the H1N1 deaths of 10-year-old Vanetia Warner and 13-year-old Evan
Frustaglio, two otherwise healthy Ontarians who died after contracting
the virus. Frustaglio, a minor league hockey player in grade eight, was
sick for only 48 hours. A friend told me yesterday it’s outright terror
from hearing of those deaths that is driving the rolled sleeves of her
and her kids to the closest clinic. Before she heard about Warner and
Frustaglio, she didn’t really see the point of getting the shots.
And those mind-rending deaths aren’t the only thing to think about:
a Journal of the American Medical Association study last month
found two-thirds of Canadians who fall gravely ill or die from H1N1 are
young, healthy women—exactly the profile of Smith-Bakhache.
But Smith-Bakhache has run through the what-ifs.
What if she is a vector—someone who doesn’t get sick but passes
the virus along?
She says the best way to avoid that is to steer clear of the virus
in the first place, which she’s already doing.
What if one of her kids gets sick?
“I will feel horrible,” she says. “Definitely. And like maybe it
wasn’t the right choice for me to make.”
But she still thinks it is the right one, in the context of the way
she raises her family. And, after all, according to the Centres for
Disease Control, the regular flu kills 36,000 people a year in the US
alone.
Smith-Bakhache’s husband works in the armed forces, and was
vaccinated at work this week. Still, he told his non-vaccinating wife,
“I trust your judgment.” Smith-Bakhache’s mom reserved opinion, telling
her daughter (who, yes, was immunized by her parents as a
child), “You do what you want to do.” Smith-Bakhache admits: “A
girlfriend of mine, she is going to be outraged.”
But Smith-Bakhache can let it roll off her back. That’s kind of her
style, really: taking matters into her own hands, despite what the rest
of the world is telling her. That, and reiterating that vaccination is
her choice.
“My children are healthy,” she says, “because of other choices I
have made.”
This article appears in Nov 5-11, 2009.
“Smith-Bakhache can’t understand why parents will pony up their kids for a vaccination when they don’t bother with everyday measures to keep them healthy—she cites sending them to school without proper clothing, “with a lunch that is full of sugar. Even dairy products, that is something I do not do. Sending your children to school with a healthy lunch is very important. They need fresh vegetables. They need lots of fresh water.”
people are too lazy, they don’t have time in this day and age to do all that she does. this is the fast food era.
homoeopathy is horseshit. Why not be more honest about it and just pray to the flying spaghetti monster to keep you healthy?
not getting your kid vaccinated for mumps, rubella and polio is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Sure, feed your kids well and all that shit, but don’t be an idiot.
I shouldnt’ be suprised that people feel this way, but seeing her reasoning for not getting her kids ANY vaccines is just plain scary. I guess we just have to be happy that enough people are smart enough to vaccinate their children so these homeopaths are provided some protection by the rest of society. I can understand some reluctance re: H1N1 and seasonal flu shots but it is mind boggeling that someone would put their children at such risk of M M R, Polio and the likes. If the worst were to happen and these children contracted something as preventable as MMR or Polio who is on the hook? It borders on negligence IMO.
Walter
What a nutjob.
Her kids should be removed from her care and placed in care of the state.
“My children are healthy,” she says, “because of other choices I have made.”
No, your kids are healthy because of sheer blind luck.
It is people like this woman who perpetuate illnesses. If parents can do the responsible thing and, at the very least, seek out the opinion of an educated person who has a well substantiated opinion rather than just feeding kids vegetables (which you should do anyway) and hoping for the best, we wouldn’t be having these health concerns. Who is this woman to completely deny all the research and work that has been done by experts in the field? It bothers me that these individuals can make decisions for children unsupervised.
My wife was never given any vaccines until she went to nursing school, her mother believed in healthy eating and exercise. Worked well, still healthy and 3 healthy adult kids.
Me, I had them all including more obscure ones such as yellow fever & cholera, my career required keeping up to date on all vaccines. Borneo & other ‘exotic’ places can be quite dangerous, in more ways than one.
Flying spaghetti monster? I have not tried that one; it is unfortunate that some people can not offer a more challenging debate. How about researching for yourselves, what is put into our vaccines that are readily offered to us by the big pharma companies that they make a fortune from? Back in the 1970’s there was an H1N1 pandemic scare and more people died from the vacation than from the influenza and I am sure they were told it was safe. How has vaccinations affected the accelerated increase of autism in our children? There has not been enough research either way on the H1N1 vaccination to prove that it will prevent the virus (and keep in mind it is only a virus, which our media have created unnecessary fear in our society) or to prove that it will not cause more serious damage. Those people who have done and continue to do their research, and believe they are making the right decision…I applaud you. I will not be taking any form of a vaccination.
Barbara Graham
You people talk as if this lady is horrible when she is right. How many children have died from MMR shots… Thousands upon thousands. How many have died from seasonal flu… thousands upon thousands. You people think you know everything when you really know nothing. You’re blinded by the media’s fear-mongering.
I hate the all-or-nothing, better-than-you approach. There’s nothing wrong with focusing on health while using modern medicine to guard against entirely preventable health problems (I get the H1N1 refusal but Polio? jeez). Balance.
My how things have changed. I recall my childhood where the neighbourhood parents would purposefully organize chicken pox parties and mumps parties. Once one kid got the mumps/measles/chicken pox there would be a play date of sorts with similar aged kids. Some kids got sick and the illness ran its course and some kids just didn’t get sick. The main result was that every kid either already had the immunity or built up resistance through their own immune systems and no one, repeat NO ONE died. Alas, that was a different time when mothers (not being sexist here, just the way it was) were able and willing to stay home with their sick kids and nurse them back to health and off to school again, usually within the week. And the flu was just the flu. Flat ginger ale and crackers for a few days and then back to school. No biggie.
But then there also wasn’t a media circus every time someone got the sniffles and big pharma companies had yet to discover how to profit off the value of paranoia and mob mentality.
I certainly respect Rachael’s decision not to immunize her children as she has carefully thought out her reasoning. Agree with it or not, she has done her research and made an educated decision as opposed to a knee-jerk “the media says so, so it must be true” or “I heard from John’s sister’s boyfriend’s uncle’s landscaper that some kid got leprosy from the vaccine” decision. Do your own research and make your own decision and don’t worry about everybody else’s choices. You and your kids will be exposed to this virus, along with many other viruses, whether Rachael’s kids get the vaccine or not.
I can understand the H1N1 confusion, but normal childhood illnesses?? Our three kids have had all the normal immunizations and STILL 2 of them came down with illnesses (one had whooping cough, the other, mumps) Are good food choices going to stop a child from getting sick from a rusty nail in the foot? Does this woman not realize what kind of risk she is putting other people in due to her ignorance? She states she would feel horrible if her children do get sick, but what if they make others sick? I wonder if she realizes what would happen if one of her kids gets, say for example, mumps, and the passes it on to a woman in early pregnancy? It’s not just about protecting oneself, but protecting other people around you as well. Just my opinion of course.
Shame on the writer of this story for such a horribly one-sided and poorly researched article. Where is the other side of the argument? Where are the risks of not vaccinating children stated?
This holisticer-than-thou woman congratulates herself on healthy children because she feeds them vegetables while claiming other parents obviously do not if their kids get sick. Of course you need to feed children vegetables to keep them healthy!
The reason this woman’s children are not getting sick isn’t because of vegetables, it’s because of the herd immunity of other children. They’re not being passed these diseases because other parents take the time to protect their children from them.
If you stopped immunizing kids for things like polio and small pox you’re going to have kids with polio and small pox. These are diseases which can permanently disfigure and kill people!
On top of that, do people not understand how the flu shots work? The H1N1 vaccine is the exact same vaccine people have been getting for 60 years or so for influenza except it’s the H1N1 strain. Just like every year they change the strain. It’s not new and it’s not been rushed to market.
There is absolutely no proof that these things cause autism and the studies that try to connect them are proven to be severely flawed (although this is ignored because it is better for media outlets to terrify parents about autism).
This article does not have any shred of evidence, proof, or decent research into this topic and yet encourages people to avoid getting their kids immunized! This is a terrible article and I really hope the Coast does some more research into this and puts out the truth instead of resorting to scare tactics like a lot of mainstream media do.
Thanks for helping to shoot herd immunity to hell, you whackjob.
Polio, mumps, and rubella have been almost completely eradicated by vigorous vaccine programs that continue to the present day, so yes, her children may be at lower risk thanks to the cooperation of others. We rarely see the debilitating effects of polio these days; it ain’t no ‘flu.
Yeah, you must all be right. Choosing not to vaccinate is much more dangerous than injecting your children with processed foods, vegetables, fruuits, and meat filled with pesticides and agreeing with the fast food nation. Let’s just see whose children get cancer first.
Have you even been reading here, Brash? It’s not about choosing vaccinations over vegetables or vice-versa. Anyone who’s speaking pro-vaccination here is clearly for a combination of both. that’s the best way to go about this.
You can’t just fill your kids with carrots and then expect them to be fucking polio-resistant. That’s retarded.
“Yeah, you must all be right. Choosing not to vaccinate is much more dangerous than injecting your children with processed foods, vegetables, fruuits, and meat filled with pesticides and agreeing with the fast food nation. Let’s just see whose children get cancer first.”
You know, you can choose to do both quite easily as well!
In fact, this woman assumes she’s the only parent in the world who feeds her child properly and all others simply rely on vaccines to keep them healthy.
Her attitude is basically that vegetables and natural meat (I assume she means organic not just carbon based) will keep her children healthy alone. I like the bit where she states if her kids do get sick she’ll feel awful and think she made the wrong choice.
As the professor might say, “Good news, everyone! Vegetables and fresh water are the only things you need to stay healthy, so we’re cancelling all our employee health plans!”
To say her children are healthy due to pure blind luck is a bit of a stretch as is saying homeopathy is horseshit. Of course there will be some degree of luck as you cannot control who you meet in the street but diet plays a huge rule in the functioning of your immune system. Do some reading on the effect of sugar on your immune system and see if you change your mind.
As far as homeopathy being horseshit…well, it always boggles my mind that people are more than willing to accept the fact that there are things in nature which cause us adverse effects (ex. poison ivy) but cannot believe that something natural may have a benefit to the human body.
Ha ha, garlic pills. I guess it will do double duty as vampire protection.
Remember the girl who got sick from the flu vaccination?
Yeah, not so much….
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/…
Please don’t give a forum to this sort of irresponsible forum. I can understand having concerns about the H1N1 vaccine but not getting your kids vaccinated against polio and other diseases is just negligent.
I find it funny that the mother here wants to boost their kid’s immune systems with veggies and water so they can help fight the flu on their own. Why not get vaccinated then? What better way to boost your immune system so it can respond to a particular virus than by vaccinating yourself against that virus? The obvious benefit of vaccination being that you don’t have to suffer through a horrible infection in order to develop immunity.
I also love the irony of such obviously misinformed people telling others to do their research before lining up for a vaccination. YouTube and Wikipedia is not research.
Dr. Richard Schabas, chief medical officer of health for Hastings and Prince Edward Counties in eastern Ontario, said the H1N1 influenza outbreak needs to be put into proper perspective. About 200,000 people die in Canada every year from all causes combined, including about 4,000 from seasonal flu.
“By the time all the dust has settled on H1N1, somewhere between 200 and 300 people will have died in this country,” Schabas said Thursday during a panel on media coverage of H1N1 on CBC-TV’s The National.
A healthy child in Canada is about 20 times more likely to be killed by a car than by the H1N1 virus, Schabas said, but that isn’t going to make the national news. Schabas criticized the media for not trying to put the story into perspective, and for being “a little too easy to spin sometimes” by public health officials.
Yeah Luthor, lets just transfer all the rights and freedoms of people over to the fucking state too, and put a hammer and sickle on your sleeve while your at it. Obviously this person isn’t going to endanger her kids, nor is she lazy about giving them what is considered healthy food according most nutritionists. Just because someone doesn’t conform and immunize for every fucking disease on the planet makes them a nut-job? SAme could be said of people that medicate the fuck out of every little ailment. And these people are the first to scream and cry when simple anti-biotics have no effect. This country is based on freedom to raise your kids however you see fit, period. If the “state” wants to raise kids, then start cloning the fuckers, leave me and mine alone, I’ll fucking decide what I’m going to do. With all the preservatives in all these vaccinations, it’s no wonder. They use fucking mercury as a preservative. Good for a couple inoculations, but what about the hundredth one. That shit never leaves some peoples’ system.
Hey Bullet!
The rest of your comments are moot after this gem from you,
“Obviously this person isn’t going to endanger her kids…”
Yes, yes she is.
Idiots, and that’s what she is, doing their research thru Youtube and pseudo-science sites choke me. There isn’t another side to this, there is science/research and then there is garbage on the other.
I’ll tell ya what. You refuse a “normal” vaccine like Polio, or MMR, you sign a waiver allowing me to refuse you treatment.
Fair?
homoeopathy is foolish.when did these appraoches ever work.she is an idiot,which would be okay,but her stupidity is jeopardizing the well being of her children.no vaccinations for anything.what the hell is it with these people with no reasoning,believing in something just because.look at the evidence moron, all that new age quackery is bullshit.western medicine,based on science, is what is prolonging our lives, not witch doctors.you must be a creationist because you think like one.
If one of her kids gets bitten by an animal with rabies, is she going to refuse the vaccine and watch them die?
I understand perfectly the idea of a good diet, vitamin/mineral supplements, and all the other things that go with a healthy life style, but I can’t see why anyone would refuse something so simple for the maintenance of health.
For the person above, who mentioned vaccination as a cause for autism: do your own research. It was a preservative that was used in vaccines (and isn’t anymore) that was implicated.
It’s fine to let her not inoculate her children. If she’s arrogant enough to believe that all it’s gonna take is some “fresh water” to take care of her children, so be it. If that’s the case, then if one of her children becomes debilitated from Polio, so be it. Let her live in 1950’s rural Canada if she wants. This is much like Jehovah witnesses refusing blood transfusions for religious reasons.
Fine. I’m with Monsieur Luthor on this one. If she wants to do that, the medical community should not be forced to treat her or her children. Actually, society should be allowed to force her into quarantine if her children are in the slightest bit sick. The when it’s all over and the aftermath has come and gone, we should tell her: “we told ya so.”
We can all thank American nuts like Jenny McCarthy and Bill Maher for giving aid and assistance to scientifically illiterate Canadians.
Kitkat06: Actually the vaccine additive (thermisol, I believe) was only implicated by anti-vaxxers, never by any scientific study. As soon as it was removed by vaccine companies (because of the bad press, not because of any science), the anti-vax crowd changed their argument to “too much too soon.” They will continue to shift arguments as each one is shot down by science. Phil Plait at Bad Astronomy tears these myths apart all the time.
Anyway, this woman and this article are irresponsible. If I were a parent of a child at the school these children attend, I’d raise hell about them being there. This woman endangers her children and everyone else.
“It’s my choice,” says the 38-year-old mother of two. “And I don’t think I have to stand up and tell you why it’s my choice.”
driving drunks also a choice, that’s exactly what she’s doing.
Tweev, Jennifer and Matthew, you are all just sheeple willing to believe whatever big pharma and the government tell you. It’s scary that some people are so quick to believe what they are told. For your own sakes I hope that you can all learn to question the prevailing “wisdom” before you take your next pill or roll up your sleeve for another poke. It is pathetic that this woman who obviously really cares for her children and is willing to stand up for her beliefs has to see comments like “Her kids should be removed from her care and placed in care of the state.” If any of you did any research you’d realise that many of the “deadly” diseases that get vaccines for now used to be considered no worse than chicken poxs now. The fact that people are now terrified of measles mumps and rubella is 100% the result of fear mongering by big pharma.
I am very proud that I had a mother who had the wisdom and courage to stand up and question vaccines. My siblings and I either don’t have all of our vaccines, or none at all. I am very happy to know that there are other people here in Nova Scotia that are willing to take a stand against big pharma and vaccines. I have no children of my own, but someday I hope that I can be as good a parent as Rachael Smith-Bakhache.
This lady is a stupid, irresponsible and dangerous whack-job. The only reason her kids haven’t gotten measles is because of the responsible parents who have had their children properly immunized. Or maybe it’s because she stuffs them with tofu and waves crystals over them.
The standard MMR shot prevents Measles, Mumps and Rubella. It has no notable risks or side effects whatsoever.
This is what Measles looks like:
http://images.google.com/images?client=saf…
It killed 200,000 people last year. Ten years ago it killed 800,000 people; the decrease is due to increased vaccination.
This is what Mumps looks like:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe…
It has a 27% chance of causing a spontaneous abortion in pregnant women, and a 30% risk of spreading to the testes in men.
This is what Rubella looks like:
http://images.google.com/images?client=saf…
Like measles, it is most dangerous to pregnant women (who can catch it from young, unvaccinated children). It caused about 30,000 stillbirths and 20,000 children born disabled between 1962 and 1969; the vaccine was finally introduced in 1969.
You can look up the safe vaccines and horrific symptoms of Hepatitis A and B, Rotavirus, Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Haemophius influenzae B, Pneumococcal pneumonia, Polio, Meningococcal meningitis, and plain old influenza for yourself. ALL OF THESE are standard vaccinations for children; this is the case for a reason.
You can advocate “natural” living and therapies all you like, but the hard fact is that the NATURAL human infant mortality rate is ONE IN THREE, the NATURAL human lifespan is around FORTY, and the NATURAL response to people who willingly spread disease among the rest of us is to expel them from society by force.
I am hoping that the Nova Scotia government has mandatory immunisation before children can be admitted to school. This creatures nonsensical attitudes are putting more than her children at risk.
Sadly, it is the very success of these vaccination programs that have caused today’s young parent’s to grow up without seeing the horror of an epidemic like the Spanish flu, or Polio. These horrific illnesses are merely abstractions to today’s parents, and do not carry with them the fear that their grandparents would have had. If these people had ever seen the wards full of iron lungs keeping children paralyzed from polio alive, they may feel differently about vaccinating their own children.
I think we live in a very evolved world, one where yes years and years ago not getting shots for MMR and Polio would have been unwise. We now have technology….We now know the symptoms for those diseases and we also have the cures for them. I agree you need to be in tone with your children. Be aware of them to the point where you notice something coming on before it gets out of hand. She is not a nutjob by any means and to say her children should be removed from her care is not for you to say. I think she is putting alot more care into the choices made for her children then most people do. She is not just following the “heard” and doing what the media scares us all into doing. Negligence is actually the lack of proper care or attention, i think she has put extra care and attention into making this choice…Do any of you people even have children?
Marnie
“My children are healthy,” she says, “because of other choices I have made.”
No, your children are healthy because everyone around you is vaccinated, and you’ve lucked out – until now. You are also incredibly ignorant about science, medicine, etc. Sure, eat healthy and all that jazz … but what the hell, no MMR vaccine? Are you a complete moron? How about you travel to countries where vaccines arent’ available and see just what a moron you are.
The scariest thing about the responses to this article is that many people are IN FAVOUR of the government making vaccines mandatory.
People are IN FAVOUR of the government forcing you to do something that may or may not be good for you and may or may not be detrimental to your health. Does that not sound completely insane to anyone else?
“My children are healthy,” she says, “because of other choices I have made.”
No, your children are healthy because of all the other parents who have had their kids vaccinated, dramatically reducing the risk of exposure for her kids. She’s simply taking advantage of other families’ willingness to do the right thing to protect their kids and their communities.
In all seriousness, this woman should not be getting any time in the press. That her children haven’t contracted any of the diseases she has neglected to get them immunised against is not a product of her choices, it’s a product of the responsible choices the vast majority of other parents have made. This is what’s called “herd immunity”, where all the vaccinated children prevent the transmission of something like the measles virus through the community, so it never reaches her children who are unprotected. If they ever travel abroad to countries without the same level of public health as Canada, they could end up dead or with serious morbidity.
In essence, this woman has relied on others to keep her children free of vaccine-preventable diseases, but is allowed to propagate the notion that homeopathy and other such quackery is effective. I’m all for free speech, but at a certain point fools have to be told “no, you’re just plain wrong.” Giving this woman a public pulpit without any examination of her irresponsible claims is poor journalism and does a disservice to over 100 years of public health work and research. It is shameful.
GrantMac— Sheeple? Really? I’m not gonna sit here and decry the merits of holistic medicine (in fact, some holistic medicine has some scientific merit). Honestly though, there has been enough evidence that vaccines have worked. Sure, she can choose not to have her children vaccinated. If they’re ill, society should be able to force them into quarantine, as I mentioned. Does the individual choice supersede the groups choice? If so, buddy, you’re in the wrong society.
“years and years ago not getting shots for MMR and Polio would have been unwise. We now have technology….We now know the symptoms for those diseases and we also have the cures for them.”
Yes Marnie, we now have cures and technology for these diseases. It’s called vaccinations. Treatment of the symptoms of these diseases would also involve a lot more drugs from evil Big Pharma and a lot more pain and inconvenience than a needle stick. Unless there’s some unregulated and untested naturopatic “cure” for these diseases too.
I totally agree with Dr. Fever. If someone comes down with H1N1 they should most definitely be made to stay home (in quarantine). I think that the real problem during this (some would say perceived) pandemic is the fact that people are too busy to stay home when they get sick and look after themselves. The fact that so many people are rushing to get the vaccine is probably a manifestation of the fact that people want a quick fix to everything now.
“Does the individual choice supersede the groups choice?” Yes, sometimes it does. But in Canada the individual choice does supersede the groups choice. If this is not true, then why does the government allow the sale of tobacco? This is a product that individuals choose to use that costs the group. There are numerous examples of this. To justify mandatory vaccination by saying that the good of the group outweighs the needs of the individual is not a valid argument.
Its called “HERD IMMUNITY”. That’s why they haven’t gotten sick, not because of your wackadoo holistic practices.
Let’s not get confused here, GrantMac. I got the shot because I know it will give me a better resistance. It’s not a quick fix, but a barrier. I think that people are educated enough that they realize that. Sure there are those who are stupid enough to buy into the insanity, but the majority understands that this isn’t the end all be all of preventing the flu.
As far as my query, in the case of children, the group will always win, and I think you will find that there will be growing number of parents that think this way. Let’s face it, vaccinations are good for the community at large, especially when it comes schools which are basically a giant petri dish. Your example is that of a government willing (and to much financial gain, I might add) to let ADULTS make informed decisions. While a parent may be an informed adult and make decisions for their children, they may not reflect the community’s will. Thankfully we don’t have to resort to that, but there’s nothing more irrational than a group of mothers. Big Pharma has nothing to do with it.
So what about this?
Please excuse the Fauxnews site….
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572917…
Same as Rachael Smith-Bakhache’s foolish, foolish choice to endanger her children.
Next time can you please interview a parent who doesn’t believe in car-seats?
And yes, Grantmac, her children should be removed from her care.
She is choosing to “roll the dice” on her kids because she watched Oprah or Dr. Phil.
I would like to respect her opinion, but she is as wrong as those who believe in witches, and goblins. You can’t debate the anti-vaccine types, because no amount of peer-reviewed studies or millions of lives saved will change their minds.
Rachael Smith-Bakhache is a product of two late Twenty-Century American cancers on critical thinking; the “My opinion on a complex issue that I have heard about from a random celebrity is equal to experts”, and ” The world is a giant conspiracy”.
poor kids. no one wants their mom hovering over them like that.
I think this woman seriously misunderstands human health. To say that someone is healthy doesn’t necessarily make them immune from disease. Child obesity rates are skyrocketing as are child diseases like diabetes. To say that the cause is related in any way to allopathic medicine is absolutely asinine – in reality, it only serves to confirm the lunacy of the person making that statement.
Mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox – these are all diseases from which people have DIED. Not a few people – not like “Swine Flu” – we’re talking millions of lives lost. Not vaccinating your children against these illnesses is like letting them play with a loaded gun – it may not go off, but then again, it very well may.
This woman hits the nail on the head with the way she feeds her children, though. Kids today are fed complete crap. From grade school to university, we as a society, are pumping them full of refined sugars and over-processed foods. They need to get out more – when the number one selling toy in Canada over the holidays is a Nintendo Wii and not a pair of hockey skates, something is afoot.
Out kids are unhealthy – they are fat and slovenly, and we have only ourselves to blame. BUT that in no way, shape or form has ANYTHING to do with vaccination. I truly hope that her children never get sick, because then a real tragedy would occur. As far as she’s concerned, she should be locked up. I bet this woman cheered Daniel Hauser’s mother on as she fled state lines to avoid chemotherapy for her son’s very treatable cancer. Luckily, the courts in Minnesota stepped in and had the boy taken out of her care. Maybe Nova Scotia should consider what would happen if this woman’s children ever fell ill, because even though it’s clearly her choice to not vaccinate her children, a government that just stands by should be held accountable.
That is all.
Luthor, I find it hilarious that you would even suggest removing her children from her care. Should we remove children from the care of every parent that smokes, drinks, eats french fries, doesn’t excercise regularly, or doesn’t read to their child? These are all things that parents choose to do that are detrimental to children’s health, but you never see child services roll up to McDonalds and remove every child from their parents care. But really, by your logic, they should be, since eating fast food is really “rolling the dice” with their health. You may not agree with me, but I encourage you to look at the statistics on obese children, and look at all the diseases that are caused by obesity, and then compare the death rates from those diseases to the death rates for swine flu. I’m pretty sure at that point your argument falls flat on it’s face.
Luthor, It’d be great if you were an expert on the subject, but from the amount of posts you’ve made on this site, about totally inane things, I can tell you are just someone who likes to argue. As for me, I’m no expert either, but I will tell you one thing, doctors and nurses are one of the groups the least likely to get an annual flu shot. So if not even the experts are doing it, I have no idea why I would want to go out and get one.
At Dr. Fever. I agree that the will of the community is important, but it is not the be all end all. Example, A new family from a primarily Islamic country move to Halifax. Their daughter begins school and she wears a Hijab. The school “community” feels that this crushes her indivdualism and the school decides to ban hijabs because they feel it will benefit the community. The result, a human rights case against the school launched by the “individual’s” informed parents. Even in the case of children, individual will trumps (perceived) community good. I’m not saying it’s always right or always wrong, I’m just saying that it’s not a valid argument.
What it all boils down to is personal choice. People who are getting the shot feel they would rather have the shot then to “roll the dice” with there health. From everything I have read and researched I would rather not “roll the dice” with the flu shot. It’s all a matter of perspective.
At Mark Sovic. Do you feel that an overweight, diabetic who lives on a high meat, low vegetable, high refined carbohydrate and sugar diet would fare just as well against a disease that we vaccinate for as a flexetarian who maintains a healthy body weight and excercise regularly? I think it’s time to look at the reasons why western civilization is plagued by so many diseases that need to be vaccinated against, and those that live in more traditional ways aren’t.
“My children are healthy,” she says, “because of other choices I have made.”
No, they are healthy mostly because of choices OTHER people have made : the choice to have THEIR kids vaccinated. Your unvaccinated kids haven’t already caught measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and a host of other once common infectious diseases BECAUSE most of us got our kids vaccinated.
What’s really sad about this type of anti-vaccine parent is that eventually, enough of them could breed enough disease vectors (unvaccinated children) to cause a resurgence of those preventable diseases and pass them on to the vulnerable people in our population who don’t even have the choice to protect themselves with vaccines.
Religion isn’t the same as health, GrantMac. Of course we wouldn’t do anything like that. We’re not France. At least you get half of what I said.
Vaccinations don’t just effect your children, it effects everyone you have contact with. There are a number of people in society who cannot, for various reasons, be vaccinated (or have immune systems that are compromised) and who depend, entirely, on the herd immunity granted by high vaccination rates.
Idiots like this are the reason why plagues and pandemics gain footholds. Vaccinations should not be optional.
Thanks for doing all that research on me, GrantMac. It feels good to be loved.
No one is arguing her right to skip the swine flu shot. I think it is a little twisted that she wants her kids to be sick, but maybe she’s bored and that’s her choice.
What you’re failing to grasp is that she doesn’t vaccinate against the true life threatening diseases. That’s what all the intelligent folks on the board are having a hard time with.
And you said
“I think it’s time to look at the reasons why western civilization is plagued by so many diseases that need to be vaccinated against, and those that live in more traditional ways aren’t.”
You mean like India, where the majority of folks are “flexetarians”. Look up the rates of disease in that country.
Here it is real slow-like for you. We don’t vaccinate because we have more disease, we vaccinate to have less. If you were to stop all vaccinations for a 100 years, the rates would be uniform around the world.
For a nice simple book that explains a bit of this, try “Guns, Germs, and Steel”.
I’m sure her Navy hubbie is really enjoying the spotlight that has been cast on his wife.
No, religion isn’t the same health, but the idea that I was trying to explain is the same. We respect the right of the individual to believe what they wish in terms of religion, whether or not it’s always the best for society as a whole. We also aren’t allowed to tell people not to believe something just because it doesn’t agree with our world view. Is it possible that maybe the current allopathic view isn’t the be all end all in terms of our health, and maybe we should be more willing to accept that there are alternatives.
At GrantMac
“As for me, I’m no expert either, but I will tell you one thing, doctors and nurses are one of the groups the least likely to get an annual flu shot. So if not even the experts are doing it, I have no idea why I would want to go out and get one.”
You do realize that her refusal to vaccinate her children is part of a general stance against vaccinations in general (i.e. her kids have not received MMR or other standard courses of vaccinations). Flu vaccines are in no way comparable to standard childhood vaccines which prevent serious childhood illnesses that do pose a threat to the child in question and the community in general. So, in that light, her decision DOES put her children at risk.
“At Dr. Fever. I agree that the will of the community is important, but it is not the be all end all. Example…[banning hijab’s in schools]…”
That’s an absurd comparison. Whether or not she wears the hijab has ZERO effect on the health and welfare of the members of the community. Exposing the community to disease by deliberately refusing vaccinations has a direct and deleterious effect on the welfare of the community.
I have read “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. It’s an excellent read.
I don’t know if you’ve read it, but another excellent book is “In Defense of Food”. If you look at this huge increase life expectancy over the last few hundred years, it’s almost totally due to the decrease in infectious diseases that used to kill many children. To put it simply, the fact that we started washing our hands and building sewers was much more important to our increased life expectancy then any miraculous cures or vaccines. If you look at the life expectancy of people aged 18 a hundred years ago, and people aged 18 now, there is very little change. We are actually getting sicker. And, curiously, our increasing sickness is happening at the exact same time that western medicine has become the predominant way of treating disease in the world.
“If you look at the life expectancy of people aged 18 a hundred years ago, and people aged 18 now, there is very little change.”
What?
In 1909, a 20 yr old white male in the US could expect to live 42.71 yrs more.
In 2004, a 20 yr old white male in the US could expect to live 56.7 yrs more.
GrantMac— yeah and 100 years ago we didn’t even have something as elementary as penicillin. Not to mention too, That’s an awfully bad time frame to pull statistics from. Ever hear of of a little event called World War 1? You were lucky to make it past age 18, and if you didn’t die from a bullet, you died from an infectious disease you caught in the trenches. Then, if you were lucky enough to survive that, you caught the 1917 Spanish Flu. Good times.
Another link on the subject of life expectancies: http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2838
Also Grant, can you clarify what you mean when you say we are getting sicker? Could that be because we are getting older? The correlation to our “sickness” and the peak of modern medicine is pretty tenuous. Perhaps our increased “sickness” is not due to our medicine, but our pollution producing lifestyles. Modern medicine is keeping us alive longer.
In lieu of giving long quotes, I will just say that chronic disease has increased in the west ever since all of this innovation in medicine. We are the sickest people in the world, hands down. Yet we still are convinced that every innovation made in the medical field must be good for us. I think it’s time that as individual’s we all take a step back and assess our health, because there is no one looking out for our health but us.
Sickness=chronic disease and general unwell being.
Again, you’ll need some evidence if you want to make the claim that we are sick BECAUSE of medicine. There are so many other factors that would logically contribute to chronic disease in the developed world like pollution, pesticides, Kentucky Fried Chicken, hormones in the milk, BPA in the baby bottles, etc, etc. These are things that other countries and our forefathers had no exposure to. Medical advancement is just one way we answer these new health problems.
Also, consider that it’s medicine that allows us to convert acute disease into chronic disease. Kids don’t die from asthma and diabetes, they manage it. Chronic heart disease is managed with drugs and heart attacks don’t kill as often as they once did. Many of our illnesses and diseases are diseases related to age…like cancer, alzheimers and the like. Also, some of our lifestyle choices (poor diet, smoking) are the more likely culprits for our increased sickness which our medicines help us to live with longer then we otherwise could.
I will agree with you that the western model of medicine may miss or minimize some important issues in human health. Other traditional medicines and schools of thought may provide some insights into human health. However, evidence based medicine, not the opinions of celebrities and snake oil salesmen, is the most reliable source for medical information. If herbs and crystals heal people then prove it. You’d be surprised how open western medicine actually is to new ideas when there’s data to back it up.
All this nonsense about Big Pharma is annoying too. Canadian alone spend billions of dollars a year on supplements and herbal remedies and alternative medicine. Very little of that industry is regulated or subject to the same health and safety standards that each new drug from big pharma has to meet before it gets approved. People talk about sheep getting fleeced by Big Brother and Big Pharma, but they should look in the mirror. They are pissing their money away to corporate CEO’s who are just as greedy and looking to use you as any pharmaceutical company.
This might also be of interest to some. The Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine also agrees that at least some people should consider getting the flu shot.
http://www.ccnm.edu/?q=home
@Grant Mac,
First of all, it’s Soric. I clearly don’t believe that someone who is overweight, diabetic, or who eats poorly will have a strong immune system, in general – there are of course, exceptions to that rule. There are people who eat McDonald’s three times a day and are healthier than some athletes, but that’s not the point.
I think you’re making the mistake of assuming that because a person lives an arguably healthy lifestyle, they will gain some sort of natural immunity to viral infections. This is just simply and absolutely not true. What can be said for certain is that, in general, people who tend to take care of themselves in terms of diet, exercise, etc…, will generally have stronger immune systems than those who don’t. What you cannot possibly EVER argue is that someone who is a “flexetarian” (seriously? Do you have some innate need to differentiate yourself from the norm? Can’t you just say “sometimes eats meat”, regardless) will be immune to diseases that plague everyone, regardless of health.
Polio will affect you, just as it would an overweight diabetic that hasn’t gotten off their couch in three months. It will also affect in the same manner a person on a mountaintop somewhere in the remote reaches of Asia who hasn’t had any contact with “western medicine.” The mechanisms of disease are consistent with all types and shapes of people. The fact is that while you may think that pseudo-scientific diets and naturopathic medicine offer much more than modern allopathic medicine, you are simply ignoring several crucial statistics. Countries that practice modern medicine have much longer average life expectancies with substantially less disease than those who do not. How can you possibly argue with that?
Please don’t get me wrong, though – I am in no way condoning people living slovenly lives. People should eat well and exercise as much as possible. I think our ideas of eating well, however, are quite different. You say that eating well is a flexetarian diet – I disagree, but that’s for another article! 😀 I believe that if people, in general, were more aware of what they consumed and how they lived, there would be substantially fewer health concerns in modern society, but again, that has absolutely nothing to do with infectious diseases like influenza, or HIV, or Herpes or any other one. Vaccination would be the only way to protect from such dangers – not drinking an acai smoothie everyday for breakfast!
I personally do believe that the government should ban tobacco and fast food, in countries where healthcare is publicly funded such as ours. Why should I have to pay for someone’s chemo if they chose to smoke their entire lives? Likewise, why is it on me to take care of the fat kid that can’t put down the cheeseburger (no coke, pepsi!)? I’m on the very same page with out as far as people taking care of themselves goes, but honestly? You really think that eating a flexetarian diet is going to save you? Take a few microbiology and biochemistry courses, maybe some physiology and learn….
Oh yeah, and I would really love some proof that people who live in areas of the world not-influenced by western medicine do not get the ills we do here. But, you’re probably right, a country that kills innocent people like China is bound to accurately document their cases of infectious disease – good logic there buddy… I truly hope that you and your like don’t get sick – I really do. I hope that one day you and all the other ignorant neo-hippies realize medicine has saved us, not doomed us. I hope that one day people like you realize that taking sugar pills ain’t gonna help you with shiet and that “like doesn’t cure like,” I really do.
And yes her kids should be taken away from her. If a parent compromises the health of their child, they shouldn’t be parents it’s that simple. Every parent who loses a child because they followed in this tool’s footsteps should be charged with endangerment of a child.
“”I personally do believe that the government should ban tobacco and fast food, in countries where healthcare is publicly funded such as ours. Why should I have to pay for someone’s chemo if they chose to smoke their entire lives?””
Let’s take this rather selfish (and slightly bizarre) statement a little further…
In a “country with publicly funded healthcare” perhaps “the government” (please, you’ll give me nightmares) should also ban contact sports, extreme sporsts, skiing and bicycling? After all, why should MY tax dollars go to pay for a broken leg for some twat that jumps out of an airplane with a flimsy parachute? Why should “I” pay for an extended stay in a nuerological ward for some idjit that actually thought his “mountain” bike was for going down mountains?
Please, an other wise OK post ruined by the ridiculous assertion that we need the “government” to ban anything that can be harmful…it’s gone way too far already, like a runaway train!
Stupid. Plain and simple. All these anti-vac people chose to willfully ignore the science showing that vaccines are safe, and effective. All these people should not be allowed to benefit from “herd immunity” since they do not contribute and indeed pose a danger for the rest. Smith-Bakhachem you are a moron. End of discussion.
I think it would be very interesting to follow this case. I certainly hope the children are healthy and remain that way, but if the children become sick, a follow-up interview would be enlightening. Would she then say “My children are sick because of the choices I have made”? I certainly doubt it.
She has chosen homeopathy, a disproved and discredited practice, to protect her family and seems to infer that parents who vaccinate their children are sending kids to school with improper clothes and unhealthy lunches. Not so, I dress my children appropriately, send them off with good healthy lunches, engage in physical exercise daily with them and pay attention to them. I also choose to have them vaccinated as a precaution. She offers a false dichotomy, it is either one or the other when it can be both.
I hope her children remain healthy, and hope if they are, that they are thankful to the children and families around them who have been vaccinated for helping to keep her family healthy.
HOORAY!!! Commendations to this woman for actually taking care of her kids. Look past your near-sighted views of homeopathy, and re-read the section about her feeding her kids low sugar, low dairy, lots of vegetables and natural meats. I’ve seen too many kids dropped off at school or day care with Skittles and Starbucks for breakfast. I am so glad there are still parents out there that care about their child’s health and nutrition.
Man!
Bob, no one is arguing the diet issue.
We are simply stating that she seems to be missing an aspect of critical thinking when it comes to assessing risk.
The Reason Iam against the vaccine:
I dont believe its been tested to death and its been fumbled since the get go; think if thousands of people were dying … is the response we would get? If its was a real threat.
The media seems to be all over it now, its been around for sometime… the amount of deaths since it was being talked about have been very small. Most cases not being the sole reason of death. I am sure that when someone looks into it, there will be more deaths from the general flu from last year. The cases are also over being overestimated as our healthcare system is overrun with testing.
Read an interesting article, that was looking at the link between Goldman sachs (bailed out) had invested into the pharmaceutical company that makes the vaccine.
I am not against all vaccines; just this one. I also have had several coworkers who had it, and are fine. Ones son actually got the vaccine and got h1n1 because of it.
I read an article in Montreal, 100 health care works were given the wrong shot and had to get another shot… lol
THIS IS WHY I WONT GET the vaccine… ill wash my hands (chances are you dont wash them properly and will get the h1n1 just because your not paying attention)…
Christov – the H1N1 vaccine cannot, repeat, cannot give a person H1N1. There is no live virus in the vaccine. It is physically impossible for it to give you the illness. So if your co-worker’s soon got the virus, he must have come into contact with it before he was immunized, or during the 10 day window it takes for the vaccine to become effective.
People who use the term “big pharma” are nothing more than conspiracy theorists. Is every doctor in Canada in on the conspiracy too? Are they all being paid off by “big pharma”?
From CNN
“Washing hands really is wonderful for preventing many diseases, such as the common cold, but it’s not very helpful to prevent influenza,” said Arthur Reingold, professor of epidemiology at the University of California-Berkeley.
I gave Reingold two scenarios. The first: I’m sitting in a movie theater next to — but not touching — someone with H1N1, and he sneezes and doesn’t cover his mouth. The second: Someone with H1N1 rubs his nose, shakes my hand, and then I rub my nose. In which situation am I more likely to catch the flu?
That’s easy, said Reingold, an infectious disease specialist who advises on vaccine policy for the World Health Organization. The theater incident is much more likely — much, much more likely, he said — to give me the flu, since inhaling particles results in a bigger dose of the virus.
A spokesman for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention agrees there isn’t strong evidence that hand washing fights H1N1.
“We don’t have solid data on the effect that hand washing has on the transmission of H1N1,” CDC spokesman Tom Skinner wrote in an e-mail.
Feeding your kids healthy food is great but does this woman think viruses are afraid of carrots? Antibodies kill viruses, celery does not.
This is the most interesting video I have watched in regards to the flu…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0JqQyl09zQ…
Its not a tin foil hat, its very interesting… not in english, subtitled :/
I dont have time to go look for everything I have read on it… but here are some interesting things I have come into. I hate when people attempt to call me a conspiracy theorist when originally I was in favor of the vaccine… I am against it now because of what I have read. Unlike the woman above I do believe in some vaccines but not this one.
H1N1 (Rough Estimates)
http://flutracker.rhizalabs.com/
Swine Flu Cases Overestimated? – CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/…
CBC News – Montreal – 100 health workers repeat H1N1 shot
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20…
YouTube – RMR: Rick’s Rant-Viral Panic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiHLN6l3Ld0…
Pandemic Payoff from 1918: A Weaker H1N1 Flu Today: Scientific American
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.…
Case against Baxter Pharmaceutical
http://www.theflucase.com/
TERESA FORCADES, doctor in Public Health, reflects on the history, and gives scientific data, of A type flu and lists all the irregularities related to this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0JqQyl09zQ…
Swine flu death rate similar to seasonal flu: expert
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/…
WHO pandemic definition too broad, doctor contends
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health…
Baxter Sent Bird Flu Virus to European Labs by Error (Update2) (whoops… Baxter the same pharmaceutical company profiting off the vaccines for h1n1; there is a case against them)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new…
Not wanting to get the vaccine doesn’t make you a conspiracy theorist.
Believing that all pharmaceutical companies (sorry, “big pharma”) are out to get us, on the other hand…
Yes, pharamceutical companies are in business to make money. ALL businesses exist to make money. That doesn’t mean they’re cutting corners and putting us all in danger. You can be in business to make money and still produce safe, effective vaccines at the same time. They’re not mutually exclusive.
your kids have remained healthy because of something called herd immunity, not because of a healthy lunch… these are preventable diseases, but without vaccines they will reappear
i think my favorite part of these comments is when people say that those of us who are not vaccinated are putting those that are in danger. really?! how does that logically make ANY sense? i mean, really, those with the vaccine have “immunity”, right? from anti-bodies (that do not, by themselves comprise immunity or health) that the vaccine gives them? then really, shouldn’t the non-vaccinated be worried for their health? all those who are vaccinated are SAFE, if i’m following pro-vaccine logic.
Nyarlathotep, YOU pose a danger to ME, the non-vaccinated, if what you believe is in fact true.
how do these people not contribute to “herd immunity”? last thing i knew, healthy bodies are able to create anti-bodies on their own. really, considering the herd of people i’ve witness in this discussion, i’d really rather not receive any “benefits” from them. i’ll take my own chances and my own health into my own hands, thankyouverymuch.
fear-mongering. incomplete logic. blind nonsense. you sheep call yourselves people? democracy is dead in a society like this – democracy requires individual thought and participation.
And reverb pulls out the old ‘sheep” insult.
Reverb, you have no training, no education, and no abilty to understand the truth about vaccines.
Want to live without them? Go find an island with like-minded folks, and for the good of humanity, don’t reproduce.
“If any of you did any research you’d realise that many of the “deadly” diseases that get vaccines for now used to be considered no worse than chicken poxs now. The fact that people are now terrified of measles mumps and rubella is 100% the result of fear mongering by big pharma.”
Um, no…some of us are scared of those diseases because they have very serious effects.
My stepmother, who was not vaccinated against rubella, contracted it when she was pregnant. My baby brother is profoundly deaf. All the vegetables in the world wouldn’t have done them a damn bit of good.
As a result of these anti-vax nuts refuse to vaccinate their kids, we’ll be seeing a sharp rise in birth defects in another 20 years, as those kids have kids of their own.
Wanting to protect yourself (and pregnant women and their babies) against these diseases is not being a “sheep”, it’s being a responsible member of society.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/…
H1N1 pandemic ‘a dud’: Ont. health official
“It’s really not causing — and is not going to cause and nowhere has caused — significant levels of illness or death,” Dr. Richard Schabas, Ontario’s former chief medical officer of health, said Thursday.
When we lived in Ontario, my kids had an older pediatrician who was from India, and he said he has seen the horrors that diseases like Measles, Mumps and Rubella cause, and he told us that if we had seen what he saw, we would not hesitate for one second to get the MMR vaccine for our kids.
I am in absolute awe that almost everyone on this message boards would choose to attack this women because of her views…..It seems strange and ridiculous that most parents choose to do whatever their doctors tell them have to be done. Has anyone of you ever actually asked to read the vaccine pamphlet or have done research on the side affects of those vaccines? One example Gardisit…How many parents rushed their daughters to their doctors office to get this vaccine when it first came out and now we are only finding out the awful side effects of it. I wouldn’t be surprised it if it pulled off the market in a bit……I do not have kids yet but when I do I will be sure to research everything that goes into their bodies before I become a “sheeple” that does whatever I am told….I am not anti vaccine and I will be vaccinating my kids against polio and rubella ect but some of them I will simply not do, one of them being the flu shot. And when someone tells me I am wrong I just shake my head and smile at their stupidty…. Also I doubt mandatory vaccinations for school aged children will ever come into effect. It is against our constitutional law. Oh and one more thing you should ask yourselves….Why do a lot of doctors and physicians and nurses refuse to take the h1n1 shot and other certain vaccines which they do not give to their children….Do they know something that we don’t?
Canada111 said
“I am not anti vaccine and I will be vaccinating my kids against polio and rubella “
Maybe you should apply some of your prowerful research skills into reading the comments.
The vast majority of posts, mine included, haven’t call her to task for not getting the H1N1 shot, but rather for not getting her kids the Polio, MMR shots.
And
“Why do a lot of doctors and physicians and nurses refuse to take the h1n1 shot and other certain vaccines which they do not give to their children….Do they know something that we don’t?”
Bullshit, not true, source please.
Viruses don’t care about whether or not you eat your vegetables! C’mon people… Think about the seniors! Herd immunity only works if everyone gets their vaccine. Diseases are not “extinct” (ex. polio, mumps), we just haven’t seen them because we are immunized. And how are you going to “know” who to stay away from (those with illnesses)…??
You know what though? If her children are happy, healthy, well cared for, and educated, then who are we to judge? I think we as a society are too quick to jump to modern “solve-all” medicines and quick fixes. Not that I’m saying vaccinations are trivial, but we shouldn’t always line up like sheep for every needle. Homeopathy was and still is medicinal practices used throughout human history; just because one doesn’t understand what homeopathy is, doesn’t mean it’s horseshit.
I choose not to get flu shots, or the vaccination for H1N1. I will make the same choice for my children.
Regardless of the seriousness the illness au courant (avian flu, sars, H1N1) no parent should have to justify their beliefs or come under scrutiny for their choices to opt from vaccinating their children. This isn’t an issue of right or wrong, it’s one more choice we get to make for our families. It is not up to the parents to decide what is best for their children? Saying Rachael is stupid or negligent or should have her children “removed from her care” is a pretty harsh statement.
While the flu maybe a more serious issue than polio, mumps or rubella, which are very rare in Canada ( less than 30 cases annually for each), there are more deaths annually from regular flu than flu of the week that may be floating around. Eat balanced meals with fresh food, exercise, plenty of water, keep those hands clean.
Kudos to Rachael for sticking to her beliefs!
I agree with her decision. There are many natural ways to avoid contracting Swine Flu. I doubt that anyone here criticizing her decision spends as much time and energy plugging into their kids’ well-being and takes the time and energy to ensure they’re well and healthy every day, not just when flu season comes round.
Swine flu originated from intensive animal farming practices. Same as Mad Cow and Bird Flu. My guess is that the majority of people on here criticizing this woman force-feed factory-farmed meat into their children every day. Examine your own behaviour and the risks to which you’re exposing your own children instead of condemning someone who has the courage to question what she’s being told and to do things her own way.
To those hysterically insisting the non-vaccinated pose a threat to the vaccinated, you need to think that logic through again. The only ones threatened by the non-vaccinated are other non-vaccinated. If you’re vaccinated, you’re safe. That’s supposedly what the vaccine is for – to keep you safe from the virus. To immunize against the virus. Understand? Vaccine = immunize against virus. Sheesh, just another example of herd mentality. Follow the leader blindly, repeating what s/he says without giving it any independent thought.
Vaccines aren’t 100% resistance. They just give you a better shot of resisting than non-vaccinated people. Something is better than nothing after all. Also, diseases can mutate into a different type and people might be protected against that with their vaccine. Finally, some people aren’t able to get vaccines. People with allergies or elderly people for example. Vaccinating other people protects them against these things.
If the lady doesn’t want to get her kids vaccinated against H1N1 that’s fine. It’s silly to say that the vaccine is dangerous or untested, but we have to accept that people are always more willing to believe fear-mongers than science. Her kids will likely get the flu at some point or another and likely have a mild version and likely survive. Hopefully she’ll keep them quarantined while they have the flu. The adverse affects of the flu are very rare so she’s probably going to be okay, she’s betting on long odds.
I do think that it’s really silly to avoid the vaccines for measles, mumps, and polio. What if her kids want to travel to other countries when they get older? They are effectively trapped in the more civilised parts of North America by this decision. They’re not likely to get these diseases in most of Canada or America but if they wanted to travel to Asia or Europe or Africa at any point they will be at a huge risk for them. On top of that, as I said above, if they do get these diseases and spread them to someone who has been vaccinated, because vaccines aren’t 100%, it could result in the deaths or maiming of someone. I wouldn’t want that on my conscious.
I’ve travelled all over the world and have had multiple vaccines. My last trip to Asia put me on a 30 day schedule of multiple vaccines. I was getting pricked every day it felt like! I’m perfectly fine and I didn’t get any nasty diseases while I was there. I’ve never had any nasty disease and my parents made sure I had all the childhood vaccinations that were available when I was a kid.
How many of you who are calling her a fool, have actually know whats in those vaccinations we recieved as kids, and that we make sure our kids get now? Do you know that toxic perservatives have been used in the past, such as Mercury? How many of you actually know the percentage of risk to your kids of getting those infections without vaccination? And how many of you know the percentage of risk of your kids suffering complications from those vaccinations, or what those complications might be? I’m not saying I think she’s right, but how many of you actually know anything about the vaccinations, other than somebody else tells you getting it is the right thing to do.
I think most people just decide I’m going to do what everybody else does, and if the government approves it than it must be ok. Well goverments approved Thalidomide. I’ll bet most never look at the actual risk factor in numerical data at all.
For my own part, I was vaccinated as a kid. When I traveled abroad to places where certain diseases are common, I got vaccinated. But considering that H1N1 isn’t killing very many otherwise healthy people at all, and the people getting it now are more or less the first test subjects for the vaccine, I’m going to hold off.
How many of you worried about H1N1 feel safe getting into an automobile? Your chances of getting killed are much higher everytime you step in a car, than dieing from H1N1. You’ll be doing more to protect you and your kid’s lives by junking the family car, than getting this shot.
Be it in holistic or established medicine, or anything for that matter, blind trust and ignorance make anyone a fool.
And blind trust in celebrities and internet research makes bigger fools.
Vaccines have been safely and effectively used for decades. The mercury preservative hasn’t made us all autistic. Removal of the mercury from childhood vaccines in 2000 hasn’t changed the rates of autism.
If they had vaccines that could prevent car accidents, people would line up for those too. Instead, they choose cars with crumple zones, seat belts and airbags to help mitigate the risk of a traffic accident. Those same people get flu shots to mitigate the risk of getting sick from the flu.
Miles (from home), where did I say indicate celebrities in research in my comment? This is an assumption on your part. As for the internet, this is merely a tool to reaching sources of information. One person might be looking at some idiots blog, and calling that facts. Another might use a credited new agency. Another might check the WHO site. Another might be subcribed to medical journals.
What my comment implied was to look at the actual facts, best as you can obtain them, as opposed to making a decision based on the hysteria, or lazily let others do your thinking for you and just go along with the masses. I neither said get or don’t the vaccination. From what little data I have, and what little data exists, and my living situation where I live and work in virtual isolation, not getting the vaccination makes more sense to me, at least at this time, where the vaccine has not been long term tested. Bisphenol A was considered safe for years.
You seem very sure of what you say. I would greatly appreciate it, if you share with us where you have obtained your actual data that vaccines have been completely safely and effectively used for decades, and that the mercury hasn’t changed rates of autism. What medical journals, or scientific papers you’ve obtained that information from. I’m not being sarcastic – I would like to have this data in my possession so I could better educate myself with the best proof available, as opposed to just accepting the old handed down line that they are safe, or the new line from those who say they aren’t.
Isn’t immunization for rubella and polio mandatory for school-age children?
Psylnz, that comment wasn’t directed at you specifically. I borrowed from your last line because I wanted to add to your comment. While YOU may do proper research, a lot of people do not. I actually agree with most of what you wrote. Sorry for the confusion.
I am just getting a little frustrated with the number of people (not you) who are telling others to “wake up!” and “stop being sheep” as if THEY are the holders of some special knowledge. I think they are just as sheep-like as those they accuse because they aren’t smart enough or can’t be bothered to dig a little deeper and get past the crap they are hearing from unreliable sources. If you google “vaccines and Autism” you get several links to reputable sources (including the public health agency of canda) that says there is NO link. Same thing if you google “vaccine safety”. And that’s just a google search. That’s hardly research at all. If people can’t be bothered to even check out the first 10 hits from a google search what hope do they have of actually getting informed?
Check the PHAC and WHO links that come up with those two Google searches I mentioned and you should be on your way to fining the sources I based my previous comments on. If you want primary literature, use PubMed central to search peer-reviewed biomedical journals. Older articles should be in the public domain and you can access others from any university library. Also, try any of the PLoS journals which are free to access and peer reviewed and well-respected. Next, try websites like the WHO and PHAC where the information presented is well referenced and the publisher is accountable for the content. Use news items sparingly because they often have a strong bias and journalists, not being scientists, rarely ask the right questions or put the story in the proper scientific context (just look at how the media has handled the H1N1 story). Avoid blogs and conspiracy websites where people have a clear agenda, publish misinformation and lack the expertise to properly interpret the “facts” they are citing.
Here are some links to get you started:
PHAC
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimeros…
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vs-sv/index-…
WHO
http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/saf…
Primary literature:
PLoS publications
http://www.plos.org/
PubMed Central:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/
I have no intention of getting a H!N! shot.
I would ,if my children were still young & lived at home, consulted my doctor & taken his advice. That is in my mind the best thing I could do. BUt to not have you children vaccinated for polio or TB , that’s just wrong ! I’m not as Seig HEil here as some of you, & don’t believe parents should be losing their children to the state because of decissions they believe are right. But there are some really terrible deseases that you never have to worry about by having a vaccination. Comparing polio to the flu is a new level of STUPID as far as I’m concerned !
Thanks Miles(from home), for putting those up. Hopefully some people on here will check those out.
I’m a fan of the PubMed sites – I’ve checked them before, and they tend to give not only conclusions, but fairly detailed descriptions of the research from which they arrived at those conclusions.
Mndnrx writes “While the flu maybe a more serious issue than polio, mumps or rubella, which are very rare in Canada (less than 30 cases annually for each)”
Perhaps you weren’t around for the mumps outbreaks of 2005 and 2007. Hundreds of people in HRM alone (many at Dalhousie) contracted mumps.
Try telling a man who’s now sterile because of mumps that 1) the condition doesn’t exist anymore, and 2) that vaccines aren’t important.
On the topic of the H1N1 vaccine, since that is the main topic of the article…
Put out one without the adjuvant and without the mercury compound (thiomersal), and I might get it. NEITHER ARE REQUIRED for this or any vaccine to work (immunologists in the crowd please chime in if need be), and both could qualify as pharmaceutical company corner-cutting (in a small way perhaps, but still) in order to increase profits.
No conspiracy theory here…that’s what companies do. Adjuvant-free vaccines cost more to produce, as do single-dose formulations (less need for preservation). Although some people, including our health authorities, do not consider it worth the effort to prevent Canadians from being injected with these unnecessary ingredients, it is completely reasonable for me or anyone else to not want to take those risks, as small as they might be.
The adjuvanted vaccine is based on GSK’s pandemic vaccine platform technology originally designed and tested using H5N1 as the virus strain. Adjuvanted vaccines use less antigen (killed virus) and thus can be manufactured faster than non-adjuvanted vaccine which requires more virus to be grown in eggs and is a time-consuming process. Also, the adjuvant promotes a more robust immune response which provides immunity somewhat faster and with higher antibody titres. The government ordered the ajuvanted vaccine to make sure more doses would be available sooner. Despite the vaccine shortage, inocculating 25% of the population in just under 2 weeks isn’t that small a feat. So, I’m not convinced the decision to use adjuvanted vaccine was corner or cost cutting measure as much as it was a (arguably necessary) time saving measure.
I think this flu shot is a very bad idea…it has not been tested, and excuse me, but where’s the pandemic? Other than making the pharmaceutical companies rich, what else is it good for? It’s already made a number of people very ill, and I distrust the zeal with which governments and health authorities are shoving this down our throats.
There is an excellent You Tube video that contains an interview with a former Minister of Health for Finland that’s quite frightening, definitely worth watching., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTgyakGAddM
Have faith in your own immune systems! Don’t randomly take a drug that has not been thoroughly tested or approved, it could be fatal
Well Jennifer according to the news on the radio today about half of the HRM isn’t vaccinated, so there’s as many people out there like you & I, as there are those who are…hmmmm, more trusting than you & I. I’m still waiting for the unvaccinated half to start dying in droves…I’m really glad I’m not holding my breath, while waiting 😉
@Jennifer: I am not going to take the time to pick apart your argument, as it is evident that you are seriously deluded about your sources of information. I watched the You Tube video you suggested. Yes it would be frightening IF TRUE but I also did some research on the individual, who turns out to be a classic nut-job. She was NEVER a Minister of Health for the Finnish Government. She also believes she had 100 experiences with extraterrestrials and holds other ludicrous opinions.
No one is forcing the vaccine down your throat! Please be reasonable while taking part in the discussion and base your argument on verifiable facts. As the saying goes “You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.”
Merry Xmas!
Dear Dave Chapman, seems the pandemic flu virus was just a dud.
A flu that killed less people than usually die during flu season. The Center for Desease Control estimates about 36,000 people succumb each year. The reason they say the numbers are not harder, is because sometimes the flu is a contributing factor, but not judge to be the main factor.
H1N1 according to the C. D. C. killed approximately 17000 in the US.
Yet people are still dying from more traditional flu’s &
So the whole pandemic claim was actually what ?
Was it as some have claimed a way to increase profits for the manufacturer of the vaccine ?
Was it just a new form of flu that spooked some medical people & that spooked the right people in Government ?
Reguardless of who’s right or wrong, the idea of taking drugs for every bug that comes along is why we’re having to deal with superbug’s those who are resistant to antibiotics & we should be trying to get people to live healthier & be able to fight off the flu in traditional ways with rest & good nutrition, instead of popping another pill or sticking your arm out for another shot !
Its a personal decission, & I opted out. If I die along with all the others who opted out you survivors can carve on our tombstones how stupid we were for not listening to our betters & getting our shot
@More: Of course, I agree that it is a personal decision and I would never call someone “stupid” for not taking the vaccine. My comments were directed at the several alarmist and unsubstantiated allegations made by Jennifer regarding the motivation of the health authorities. We will never know how widely the H1N1 virus would have spread without vaccination. Have you considered the possibility that the pandemic was averted by a significant minority (some say half) of the population accepting the vaccine? It is not just about protecting oneself, but halting the spread. In other words, the vaccine refusers likely benefited from the vaccine whether they liked it or not. Also, the flu can be extremely miserable without resulting in death, so focussing on mortality rates does not tell the whole story. I believe we may have survived the flu season this year without serious mishap, for which I am glad. Best wishes…
evolution eventually weeds people out like the author.following a system that has never worked in recorded history can work.fuckoff take your new age shit,ideas , that western medicine is faulty.it does have its faults but it is the most effective medicine out there.i wonder if she would have taken anti biotics when they where first discovered or died like the rest.ignorant fool.
Agreed, sixxes! Exactly the way I feel.
Has anyone ever stopped to wonder why we still have occasional outbreaks of mumps among young adults?
Contrary to how these outbreaks are categorized by the media as being the fault of those who have not been immunized, when the cases are investigated it turns out that most of those who fall ill have been immunized against mumps as children. Apparently the mumps vaccine hasn’t been as effective as many health professionals and pharmaceutical companies would like to pretend. This is an epidemiological fact. Check the record for yourself.
On the other hand, most people of my demographic (50+) received lifetime immunity from mumps by actually contracting this relatively innocuous childhood illness. People who have previously contracted the actual illness don’t get the mumps again.
Many of the other childhood diseases which are now routinely vaccinated against fall into the same category as mumps. For the overwhelming majority of the population it meant a week or so of missed school and then a lifetime of immunity. Yes, in extremely rare cases there could be complications which led to serious medical issues, but we now have the specter of supposedly fully immunized young people getting the disease and possibly the complications anyway.
In the same way, the measles vaccine is not even close to 100% effective, a fact of which your doctor is probably unaware, and many of those vaccinated reach adulthood without full immunity against the measles, but not for lack of having the foreign protein matter contained in the vaccine injected into them at a young age.
While it might seem counter-intuitive, I blame the periodic outbreaks of what were once common childhood diseases on the vaccination programs themselves. Ineffective vaccines and flawed vaccination programs that we have had foisted on us by well-meaning medical professionals and unscrupulous pharmaceutical companies have reduced the natural immunity to many of these childhood diseases in our populations to near zero.
Many of these vaccination programs are driven, in part, by the companies that manufacture the vaccines. Never underestimate the power of the pharmaceutical industry to warp public policy to its own ends, ie. to sell a lot of drugs and make a lot of money.
Here’s another historical fact to ponder: the incidence of diseases like measles and mumps were on the decline long before the MMR vaccinations became routine and the incidence of polio had already dropped over 97% from the early years of the last century up until the late 1950s, before the use of Dr. Salk’s polio vaccine became widespread. Improved nutrition and more sanitary living conditions likely went a long way towards accomplishing this.
These kinds of statements are considered heretical or just plain ignorant in our current environment, but for those who still feel that modern medicine is on balance the best that we can do consider the fact that iatrogenic deaths (that is deaths caused by medical mistakes or mistreatment) outnumber deaths due to heart disease or cancer when taken separately, in other words, the our medical system kills more people through mistakes every year than die due to either heart disease or cancer.
Yeah, yeah. There’s lots of folks around who refused the vaccine. Some couldn’t be bothered, some didn’t think it was safe, and some were convinced it was a conspiracy to sell vaccines.
What can you do?
You can’t force people to take it, they just end up mad and it drives the conspiracy theorists apeshit.
You can’t do much more to convince people it’s safe. The government did a pretty good job of letting the public know it was fine, and there were a lot of nutjobs on the internet saying it wasn’t safe. If you can’t figure out who to listen to, the public health agency or some spacecase with a keyboard, you can’t be helped.
And you can’t argue with conspiracy theorists or people that don’t “believe in” vaccines or Western medicine. Scientific data or “facts” carry no weight with this crowd.
So I guess it’s up to the rest of us.
Sigh.