I am not a pride fanatic. I actually think it is a tad obnoxious at times, however I do get annoyed with recent statements made in a certain paper in regard to the parade. I agree sometimes people push boundaries however boundaries would never expand had we not the courage to push them… besides, who creates societal norms if not society as a sum of its parts?
I do not agree with the blood services ban on blood from gay men, I believe it only lends to the stereotype that all gay males are aids/HIV carriers. Do they not screen the blood? Is there not a shortage? Is this not 2011?
Secondly, “straight pride” there was a letter to the editor that claimed that as a straight Haligonian that he/she should be entitled to a parade. Hats off to you, should you want a parade, throw one, but also recognize that there is a reason that LGBT groups organize a parade to show their pride in their ability to live a life that was once not permitted. Have your straight day, but realize you have had 2011 years of straight pride as you have never been called a dyke walking in downtown Halifax. No one has ever made your 20 year old girlfriend cry because she thought it was safe to hold your hand in a busy street.
Gay pride is not rubbing in societies face that we are different, we are celebrating that on some levels we are finally being regarded as part of society. —Venting
This article appears in Jul 28 – Aug 3, 2011.
Frig that OP. At my age I’m just Proud to be Hard.
If you view yourself as different then that is exactly how you will be perceived and treated. There is nothing different about being gay, you eat, sleep, breath, bleed and have sex just like the rest of us. Maybe not viewing yourself as different is the key???
Agree with OB.
Excellent post OP.
the horrid readers do not speak for me
Ah, the tired and old “give me a straight pride parade.” I can’t speak for all straight people, but I’ve never been chased down the street by a gang of butch lesbians in flannel calling me “tough guy.” Seems to me we already have straight pride days called monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday, and sunday.
maybe they aren’t chasing you because they’re wearing dykenstocks…
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3WYc1pU4I1I/TPMT…
I wouldn’t be attending a shitty straight parade either…
as bad as the pride parade is… a straight parade would be WAY more boooooooooring.
I believe this was supposed to be a free country, where you could voice an opinion,whether in speech, writing or deeds. Seems to me that all those that were sickened by this parade, could have just not went. Are you that anal, that you have to find fault with every little thing in the world, if so, then look no further than your mirror. Cause buddy, or whatever, you are just as flawed, in a different way.
Those parades reinforce negative LBGT stereotypes. Not all gay people act, dress, or speak like that. It’s a poor representation of the LBGT community and any person with the slightest bit of self dignity or self respect doesn’t bother going in it. If you want to see a dyke, try Annapolis Valley.
Snap!
The thing that annoys me the most about the Pride parade is that people think too hard about it. Fuckin’ hell. Just enjoy it for what it is. A parade to celebrate freedom.
I agree with the OP. I hate the “straight pride” thing.
The straight pride thing is what’s suggested when members of a privileged majority just don’t fucking get it.
They don’t get what it’s like to not be privileged and end up saying idiotic things like “Lets have a straight pride parade!” and “White Power!” and “Fight for mens rights against the oppressive regime that is feminism!”
Usually these aren’t in response to an actual problem that is oppressing the majority group in question. But rather a reaction to the efforts of a minority group striving to solve actual problems.
No one decides to have a straight pride parade until the gay one rolls down the street. White Power was unheard of before the civil rights movement or until immigrants start moving in. And those crazy mens rights groups didn’t spring up until women started gaining ground as equals.
I see this kind of thinking as nothing but a passive aggressive way of disguising your bigotry as something good. They’ll often say “I’m not homophobic/racist/sexist, I just think that if the gays/blacks/women have a support group I should too!”
Here’s a thought, instead of making up bullshit support groups for non-existent problems how about supporting humanism, general equality, etc. If you’re really not homophobic/racist/sexist you would already be doing it.
As long as a support group or event has a real problem it’s addressing and not merely a reaction to ‘gay pride’ or ‘race equality’ or ‘feminism’ then it’s cool. Heterosexual white male pride is cool as long as it’s not just because the gays blacks and women are stirring shit up.
I always find that the most bigoted/racist/sexist people are always the ones who are too busy going on and on about how they totally aren’t bigoted/racist/sexist, to actually stop and LISTEN to what the minorities are saying about what offends them or makes them uncomfortable.
Yup Snoop said it.
Gay, straight, who cares, all humans are idiots anyway.
people have little to no empathy snoop. they can’t even begin to see through other’s eyes…donk for deputy mayor^^
Absolutely spot on Snoop!
*salutes in PG’s direction*
Sooo, in your conclusion… You, Donk, and Oceanvictim are bigoted/racist/sexist people?
Why are you telling us that Snoop?
Ugh I ain’t even gonna take that on …
Unless … you jest. Then hahahahaha
I don’t care enough to “take that on” especially when “that” is just a pesky prod to start an argument.
I agree with Snoop, but I do think feminism has gone a little too far, so I sympathize with some male rights/father’s rights groups, but this:
“As long as a support group or event has a real problem it’s addressing and not merely a reaction to ‘gay pride’ or ‘race equality’ or ‘feminism’ then it’s cool. Heterosexual white male pride is cool as long as it’s not just because the gays blacks and women are stirring shit up.”
Is what makes me wholeheartedly agree.
I don’t think I support anyone who is just mad that the opposite side is getting more attention or whatever. I just don’t think a man should ever have to pay support a child that isn’t his, I believe that it shouldn’t always be her word over his when it comes to court and I think some of the laws we have in place allow and even encourage women to extort men. I’ll stop there.
I don’t support people who whine and complain when groups of people who have been marginalized during our history (and I acknowledge that includes women) get a few perks to try and help them out because of a disadvantage that is real. I’m really glad I live in a time where women have all the same rights and responsibilities that I do. I couldn’t imagine working with all men.
I agree snoop, especially about the people who are the most adamant that they aren’t bigoted being the most bigoted. Goes for anything really, it’s called denial. “I’m not ugly/fat/annoying! My mom thinks I’m the coolest kid on the block!” I just try to learn from other people’s shortcomings and continue to work on myself.
Cool beans tommy
You might find this article about men’s right groups and fathers rights groups interesting. It’s written by a male *gasp* feminist:
http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-guy-talk…
The “impossible masculine ideal” the author talks about is something I’ve commented about on here before. Basically it’s all the sexist things society expects of men as described by this female feminist (women calling out sexism against men?! shocking!):
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustic…
I gotta say, the stereotypes applied to feminists are untrue and ridiculous, but they’ve become so popular (among people who never bothered to learn anything about feminism) that even women are starting to shy away from the movement that granted them the right to vote! I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a young woman (again, uneducated on the topic) say,”I’m not a feminist but…” It’s extremely depressing and somewhat embarrassing.
I’m at a loss to understand how you believe feminism has “gone too far”. Gone too far with what? Gaining equality for women? Do you believe that women gaining equality has infringed upon the rights of men? (doing so would be in direct conflict with what feminism stands for) Because that’s exactly the ‘reaction support group’ phenomenon I was talking about that you apparently wholeheartedly agree with.
Well I can only speak for myself. I veer from the term ‘feminist’ because of the extremists in their group, you know, the narrow minded ones who believe men’s rights and groups are fabricated for the sole purpose to suppress women and call them bigoted. Why would I want to be a part of a group that tries to suppress a gender?
These links may not be written by a feminist, so they must be bigots, right?
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feminization…
http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/23/mens…
I did read your links; thought the first one was crap; the second had some good points (I disagree, men showing emotion is a good thing. It should be known that we have emotions but that should be enough)
Hmmm writing off a movement because of a tiny minority of extremists seems unfair. I’ve been involved in feminism for a while now and I havn’t met any feminists that could be considered extreme, online or otherwise… where are they Balls?
What about the extremists in the men’s rights movement Balls? There are plenty of men’s rights movement’s that are incredibly misogynistic who want women back in the kitchen. Why does their existence not make you write off that entire movement?
I’ll read your links when I get home from work but, no someone not being a feminist doesn’t make them bigoted. Most people are non-feminists and most of them are just misinformed and never took the time to inform themselves about what feminism actually is, so they buy into the stereotypes.
But being anti-feminist is another story. Why on earth would someone be anti gender equality?
http://www.rip-factor.com/formen/andrea_dw…
I’m all for feminism, just not what some people are passing as feminism. And I think it’s “gone too far” because it has taken away some rights from men and handed them to women, that’s not equality.
Also I’ve read a read a few studies and articles that discredit the long held myth that women are paid less than men because of this “glass ceiling”. There’s no glass ceiling. In this day and age women can do whatever they want. We have female Fortune 500 CEOs, high ranking military officials, politicians, police, firefighters, but the fact is men generally are more motivated by money and women are generally more into having a family or having good work/life balance. Numbers don’t lie, there are plenty studies out there to support this. Here’s one:
http://thenononsenseman.com/nonsense/gende…
I don’t like when people blame others for their problems. Anyone can succeed.
Women make less than men on average because of our (men’s and women’s) own choices and actions, not because your boss decides to pay you less than me because I’m a man and you’re a woman. Many, many feminists support this glass ceiling theory and use it to victimize themselves and other women and as leverage to get what they want which is of course power, not equality.
I’m not painting them all with the same brush. Pure feminism I pretty much agree with, but like a lot of things that start off with good intentions, it has been warped into something that can be destructive and harmful.
When I read about cases of men doing years for false rape accusations, or police coming to a house where there’s been an incident of a woman abusing a man and they arrest the man, no questions asked, despite the children saying “no, it was my mom who tried to stab my dad” It makes me think that we have put women on a pedestal in our society, and that enough is enough. I don’t think asking for fair investigations when it comes to her word against his is trampling anyone’s rights or equalities. Quite the opposite.
For example:
The Violence Against Women Act in the United States. Am I against violence against women? Absolutely. Do I think that a woman should be able to pick up the phone and tell a lie and take away a man’s freedom and damage his reputation, whenever she feels like it? Fuck no, but that’s the law. Men are guilty until proven innocent. This happened to my best friend. He would never lay a finger on anyone, but all that bitch had to do was tell a bold faced lie and he now has to defend himself against assault charges. You know why she did it? Because he rejected her for sex after they’d broken up. Sounds like the opposite of the stereotype right? That’s probably why they took her word as the gospel, no proof or evidence required
And we wonder why there are so many self entitled neurotic bitches out there. We, our laws and our societal norms, allow them and often encourage them. Did the cops even bother trying to get his side of the story? Of course not.
Women have carte-blanche to fuck up a man’s life, and thus have more power. One side having more power than the other is not equality. Let me try to get a female arrested for assaulting me with no evidence and see how well that turns out. I’d get laughed at.
My buddy’s lawyer actually advised him filing charges against her because somehow that makes him look more guilty in the eyes of the law. Basically wave your basic right.
So am I anti-gender equality? No, I think that some people who identify as feminists, like the ones who lobby for certain laws, are. I don’t think you are, Snoop, and you raise an always excellent point that a movement should not be judged by it’s radicals. I just think that people are much more willing to view women as victims when they are starting to have it better than men now in society. (just to give one example they are earning more college degrees than men on average, here and in the US) But when a guy has a problem it’s boo-hoo, suck it up, it was your fault. MAN up.
I read those articles, I don’t know really what to think of them. To me, it indicated that the feminist movement has allowed women to break free of these old fashioned expectations but men are still held to them. This is one reason MRA groups exist.
Sure many people have old fashioned expectations of women, but when those people express them they are more likely to labeled as a bigot than someone who thinks that a man should always fight when he has to, be a good provider to his family, and never show emotion. It’s a double standard. Basically I feel like if a girl wants to be a girly girl fine, but she’s not under as much pressure as we are to “act like men”. Girls can be whatever they want but as your article indicated there is a very narrow definition of what it means to be a boy and a man.
Again, thank god for feminism, I’m really happy I live in the world we live in for the most part when it comes to gender relations. It can be challenging with all the new norms but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
My mom always worked and acted and thought independently and my sister (a feminist) is finishing university and on her way to becoming a successful journalist. Thanks to the feminist movement she is able to fully explore herself as a human being and not just a gf/wife, home maker, cook. She is very politically involved and never misses a change to vote in an election. I love her and I’m so proud of her. What I said still stands.
What do you think? Valid points or whining and bitching? This is always a tough debate to have without verbal blows being thrown lol.
“I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a young woman (again, uneducated on the topic) say,”I’m not a feminist but…” It’s extremely depressing and somewhat embarrassing.”
So every women should be a feminist and identify as such? I don’t quite get that one, I kind of know what you mean but not everyone doesn’t have to have the same views.
MRA’s are unfairly stereotyped too, it’s very difficult to criticize any woman or to even broach the topic of the conversation that we are currently having, without being labelled a misogynist caveman. Everyone’s all for women standing up for their rights but when men do it we must just be wishing it was 1950 and women knew their place. No. I love women, especially independent, confident women, but I hate little vindictive princess bitches and our society that enables them to abuse and extort men, and I dislike double standards.
Sup tommy,
I’m not debating you, I think both of us are more or less on the same page with this issue with the exception of feminism being the cause of the issues the MRA’s fight against.
When you say “feminism has gone too far” you imply that feminism is the reason why the courts don’t trust men’s word over women’s and that feminism is the reason why men are unfairly expected to be ultra masculine and all that jazz.
And again, that’s exactly the “reactionary attitude” most MRA groups have.
MRA groups often blame feminism as the cause of all of their problems. Like you said, “I don’t like when people blame others for their problems.”
The facts are that the vast majority of domestic violence is against women by men, when your fellow men stop abusing women so much, the bias police officers and the courts have will change. This is not a conspiracy by feminists as a lot of MRA groups like to imply. Feminists cannot control the minds of police officers and judges like you’d think based on most of the comments on MRA websites. And feminists aren’t out to get men.
I’m not saying that MRA groups don’t have worthwhile issues that need addressing, I’m saying that their blame is misplaced and over-discussed in their communities.
I’m also not saying that women are saints, just that asshole women tend to abuse men emotionally, while asshole men tend to abuse women physically, and the latter is a lot more likely to end up in front of a judge.
MRA groups also seem to think that women are the ones forcing them to be that “ideal ultra masculine man.” But this ideal was firmly set in stone way back when women had absolutely no power, how did they manage to oppress men with this ideal while they were cleaning pots, birthing babies, and being “sold” via marriage?
So who’s to blame? I don’t know, maybe it goes so far back it’s impossible to place blame on anyone, blame the hunters and gatherers for following that structure in the first place, maybe that was influenced by our genes. Blame the genes! Blame god if that’s your jive. Or stop blaming and get to work on attaining the goals of the movement. It’s no one’s fault so just focus on men’s rights instead of blaming feminism for everything and never getting anything done.
One last thing:
“So every women should be a feminist and identify as such? I don’t quite get that one, I kind of know what you mean but not everyone doesn’t have to have the same views.”
I wasn’t saying that at all. I was saying that women should learn about feminism before they judge it. Most don’t so all they know about feminism is the tired old stereotypes, and not wanting to be seen as a big bad butch lesbo man-hating feminist end up saying “I’m not a feminist but…” followed by statements that are clearly feminist in nature. It’s passive aggressive feminism. Agreeing with feminism but not calling yourself a feminist because you’re afraid of the stigma is depressing and embarrassing. People should be proud of and not afraid to represent what they believe in.
“Do I think that a woman should be able to pick up the phone and tell a lie and take away a man’s freedom and damage his reputation”
… ok where the FUCK do you meet these women!?!
You seem so suspicious of women. This isn’t the first display.
Right on Snoop. My only qualm is that feminism does play a role in how laws and policies are crafted, specifically the Violence Against Women Act. It was constructed by and for women to have the advantage. It’s pretty blatantly obvious. Basically it is always her word against his, nothing required to back it up.
So maybe I don’t blame feminism as much as I blame men everywhere for being complacent and not caring about their rights, or accepting that they will always be at a disadvantage in certain situations involving women and that’s just how it is.
Did you read Balls’ article? The second one he posted? After reading that do you not think that some, maybe many feminists are not actually out to get men? To make it hard for them? Or easier for women at their expense? Maybe they are not what you consider to be true feminists but they call themselves that. But then again Bill O’Reilly calls himself a Christian so I think I’m getting your point. That article was written by a woman too, fyi.
So regardless of who is to blame for some challenges that men face, I support MRA groups that fight to improve conditions for us, because too many of us have been screwed by the system. A system that undeniably favors women. I don’t support men who are just mad they can’t control and manipulate and exploit women like the good ol’ days.
“Most don’t so all they know about feminism is the tired old stereotypes, and not wanting to be seen as a big bad butch lesbo man-hating feminist”
I hear you, I think we need to shed these stereotypes, because like I mentioned, I don’t want to be seen as a misogynist just because I believe that men are being treated unfairly in certain instances, so I hear you on that one, loud and clear, however I don’t think it’s as much a problem for feminists as it is for MRA’s.
More people, I think, take feminists seriously. I just think that as the injustices against women are less and less visible some people are starting to think that feminism doesn’t serve as much of a purpose as it use to, if any. I don’t necessarily agree with that because we will never live in a truly just world, there will always be room for improvement. No injustice large or small should go ignored.
The trouble is, it is often the most loonie-est of people who get the most media attention and therefore are associated with the movements. Some of these MRA’s are definitely on some stone age bullshit, and some of these feminists need to change their fuckin tampons. I’m glad people like me and you can at least have the conversation and try to see each other’s sides. I find people get more defensive about their gender than almost anything else. It’s such a tough convo to have and that’s a big reason why it’s so challenging and interesting. Sooo much to discuss.
Thanks for talking to me like a reasonable person Snoop, I do believe this was our first exchange, hopefully not the last. I support your brand of feminism which is equal rights for all. I find nothing more attractive and inspiring than a confident, independent, secure woman and I wish there were more of them.
Keep fighting the good fight, and have a nice weekend.
It’s never happened to me Donk, but I’m a little appalled how easy it can happen, it happened to my best friend and were it not for the fact that his parents had the money for the best defense lawyer in Halifax, his life as he knew it may have been ruined. It happens WAY more often than you might think. It’d be fine if it went both ways but it doesn’t.
Our laws enable women to fuck over men. I don’t like that. If that makes me a bad guy than so be it.
It’s not that I don’t trust women, I don’t trust anyone when strong emotions get involved. So yes, I am weary of relationships because people do crazy shit in the heat of the moment. Like file false charges against you. I think if someone beat you up that bad, in this day and age you should at least have to provide photo evidence of the damage (bruises, etc.) or witnesses. Sound fair to you?
Yes, I do right off the feminist movement, but I can still hold most of their ideals and possibly support future ones. I believe I can do this by progressing to a more centralistic view, due to the progress the movement has accomplished thus far. Now I see feminists with a more female agenda, then equality. I don’t share your theory that feminist are equalist, even though they started that way.
I can ponder ideals of both male and female movements, with a case by case fashion, without blindly supporting them.
In your reply to TJ, you touch on DV, I believe some feminist don’t consider it DV but only Violence against women. Now, violence is a problem in relationships, there is no denying it. So when you say things like “when your fellow men stop abusing women so much” and “women tend to abuse men emotionally, while asshole men tend to abuse women physically” that makes me think you’re twisting facts. Initiating violence is almost equal, though I concede, by its end a man’s emotions are raging and they do significantly more damage.
You may see that as nonsense, but here is some more reading for you. Check out pages 11, 12 and 18.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-x/85-2…
Those parts of the post stood out to me too, Balls. Also cases Of female on male violence are very rarely ever reported and even more rarely taken seriously. I think both sides of this “gender war” we are starting to see need to take each other more seriously because they both have valid concerns and points. I find all too often they stop at nothing to discredit each other. It’s too easy to pit men against women, so much to disagree on. Much harder to work together to find solutions despite our vast differences.
My apologies Balls, I didn’t get to read your articles yet today, busy busy, but I will and respond when I have the time tomorrow but right now I really really really need sleep.
But I will say this:
“Initiating violence is almost equal, though I concede, by its end a man’s emotions are raging and they do significantly more damage. “
Men doing significantly more damage is a good point I never thought of before. Men are generally physically stronger than women, so that makes sense to me. Another thing that might account for lower reports of physical domestic violence against men by women is the fact that reporting your wife beat you up isn’t very macho, it’s that sexist expectation of men again to be physically strong. I’m not twisting the facts as far as I know but there are factors like the above that can misrepresent them, but we’ll never know unless they’re actually reported.
That said, I can’t remember the most recent studies done of men and womens’ aggression in comparison to each other, so I won’t comment on it being equal or not. But my personal experience (if that counts for anything) is of women being abusive emotionally more so than physically. I say that as a former child who got emotionally bullied by a gang of girls and physically bullied by one boy.
Also tommy,
“More people, I think, take feminists seriously. I just think that as the injustices against women are less and less visible some people are starting to think that feminism doesn’t serve as much of a purpose as it use to, if any.”
I’m glad you don’t necessarily agree with that because the vast majority of north American feminist activism is about bringing rights to women in other countries where they are still property, can still be stoned to death for adultery, have their clits chopped off (and before anyone brings it up yes, I’m against male circumsision too) etc.
But, just because there are worse things going on in other countries does not mean we should stop striving to better our own situation which is (thank goodness ) considerably better.
Please consider that you might not be aware of sexism that women face every day in this country because you haven’t experienced that particular type of sexism.
Ugh I should have just gone to bed, I swear I have a problem with only writing a little, even when I’m really trying.
SLeep is closing in.. sorry for any typos I’m not reading over this when my bed looks so comfy.
Good convo so far boys, I’m happy to have finally proved this comic wrong.
http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444
ALthough I think that comic was being pretty generous, usually by the end of a conversation about this stuff I’ve been called a ‘feminist cunt’ or ‘bitch’ at least a few times, once I got a rape threat, how fun! Yay for the internets!
bleh why must I write so much
Na, you know what snoop? You’ve enlightened me a little bit. No joke. And I’m all for fighting for those women’s rights in those other countries where they have little to no freedom or humanity.
i agree 100%. i also think that it’s gross when people say that we can’t expect to gain respect by being all flamey, or dykey, or whatever, and that we might be more respected if we acted more normal. this is not the point. i’m not interested in being normal, i’m interested in being myself. if i wanted to be normal, i would have stayed in the closet and kept pretending. i think the pride parade is for all who are different, to embrace those differences. it just happens to be brought to you by the lgbt community.
one and all, come and sign a petition to end women’s suffrage…
haven’t they endured enough?
only you can change the future.
end women’s suffrage today.