I need a shower. seriously. 20 minute conversation with someone who firmly believed that Pride Events are evil and shouldn’t be allowed to happen because they influence children to experiement and get involved in a dangerous subversive lifestyle they otherwise would have no part of. that parents were the only ones who should be ‘teaching’ their kids about homosexuality, not the gay community or society as a whole.
I feel the need to beat this person with a bible. a big heavy one. How is this even still a valid opinion that hasn’t been condemned yet????
This article appears in Jul 24-30, 2008.
So does this mean some random guy had a pride event for no reason? As by this logic there had to be people proud of being gay, who weren’t, and had an event to that fact, to create the first gay.By the way the first gay person’s name was Julian.
Isn’t this kind of like Seymore Butts being upset his films aren’t being used in sex ed?
Of course, people like that forget (if they ever knew) that it’s usually heterosexual parents who raise gay & lesbian children…. To the dismay of my beautiful lesbian daughter, I remain a raging heterosexual – but not because I’m ‘normal’ and she’s not! (As she says, ‘normal is a cycle on a washing machine.’) She was raised with a clear presence of God in her life, BTW, but she was also taught that the God who created her didn’t make any mistakes, and that she’s certainly in God’s image. She happens to love women in the same way that I happen to have blue eyes – that’s just the way we’re made.
Newsflash, sleehaa… heterosexual couples can make children whereas, without a third party, a homosexual couple cannot. Is it a big surprise the majority of people, gay or not, are born to heterosexual parents?
Kay, thanks to science and some nifty social openness, many children can and are being raised by gay or lesbian parents…meanign that while genetically yeah, there had to be a sperm and an egg involved, timmy can have two mommies and jane can have two daddies and that’s all they’ll ever know.what gets me about the idea that only parents should be educating their children about homosexuality is that yeah, a lot of gay kids are being raised in heterosexual environments, by parents who may never have questioned or experiemented with their own sexualiyt- so how on earth could they know what their child is going through?it doesn’t mean they can’t be supportive or helpful, but at some point, that child is going to ahve to learn about the homeosexual world from the homosexual world, people who have been there, done that, and know from experience the ins and outs of what to expect.added that many straight parents may be unwilling or unable to speak to explain homosexuality as a valid, normal choice- meaning all you’re raising is closet cases. and that’s no good for anyone.
Kay, thanks to science and some nifty social openness, many children can and are being raised by gay or lesbian parents…meanign that while genetically yeah, there had to be a sperm and an egg involved, timmy can have two mommies and jane can have two daddies and that’s all they’ll ever know.what gets me about the idea that only parents should be educating their children about homosexuality is that yeah, a lot of gay kids are being raised in heterosexual environments, by parents who may never have questioned or experiemented with their own sexualiyt- so how on earth could they know what their child is going through?it doesn’t mean they can’t be supportive or helpful, but at some point, that child is going to ahve to learn about the homeosexual world from the homosexual world, people who have been there, done that, and know from experience the ins and outs of what to expect.added that many straight parents may be unwilling or unable to speak to explain homosexuality as a valid, normal choice- meaning all you’re raising is closet cases. and that’s no good for anyone.
gigglei think that’s exactly what sleehah meant, kay. she was simply counteracting the erroneous point that kids are turned gay by homosexual influences. most have overwhelmingly heterosexual influences
But what if you don’t BELIEVE you’re gay? Are you still gay, in fact? (Sorry, I just had a ball reading yesterday’s smoking post!)
well I’m sure your mind can totally cahnge what bits and bites you want to play with…..if it can cure cancer, that should be a snap!but you’re right- most people are raised in a very heterosexual environment casue that’s sort of how our society goes. hence gay pride and stuff, just to make that a valid opition to people hwo may not have seen it
Hey Jennie, do you think CHOICE and BELIEF have anything to do with sexual orientation? Where do “learned beliefs” fit in there? (ie hetero couples never mentioning homo behavior to their children, ie homo couples urging/testing/encouraging such self exploration in their children)
I don’t think people choose their orientation. it’s just there. is it harder to come to terms with it, accept it, and act on it so you can be a complete person if you’ve been raised in an enviornment that’s more closed minded or negative, or simply where it’s not an option? sure.and there is nothing wrong with people ‘encouraging’ their kids or others to at least mentally explore their sexuality. it opens up the mind, so even if you do decide you’re straight, you’re at least sure you are, and not just because it’s the ‘normal’ thing to be.
Hedgy, you make it sound like people shop around for their sexuality. Also, leaving sex ed to the parents can end up with situations where even heterosexuals are left with sub-par guidance.My Dad: “Don’t get your nuts caught in a rat trap.” Me: “That’s it?”Dad: “Pretty much”
Easy Kay. I was only trying to make a funny.But for the record, I don’t think CHOICE and BELIEF have anything to do with homo/heterosexuality. But then again, I also don’t think CHOICE and BELIEF have much (not nothing – because I do give you there is some power to positive thinking) to with developing cancer either.
I don’t think homo-couples would encourage they’re children to explore homosexuality. Most have lived through pretty tough times and discrimination and lots of unpleasent stuff. And any loving parent doesn’t want to encourage their child to explore sex from every angle that can be dangerous. All we can do is provide them with information to protect themselves and love them no matter who they chose to love, anything less (or more) is bad parenting.
well, I think we do shop around for which expressions of sexuality we’re comfortable with. at some level though most people are mostly straight or mostly gay (I also think it’s a fluid spectrum that can change over time for many people). and I don’t think there is any harm in at least playing a little ‘what if I liked people of my gender’ mind game. even if you’re comfortable in an identity, trying another on for size mentality can’t hurt- maybe you’ll discover something about yourself, or maybe you’ll jsut end up being more comfortable int he identitiy you’re currently in.
I sat with a group of women once who would say things like “he/she made me feel like…” I wasn’t very popular when I pointed out that we get to choose our feelings. I turned the table in an analogy and they all sat there stunned. I said what if you’re happily married and a person is eyeing you up as if they’d treat you like a queen? Do you feel like a queen because the person hitting on you thinks you should or do you blow them off preserving your affections for your spouse? They agreed they’d blow them off without issue (monogamous girls) but couldn’t exercise that same choice when the spouse “made me feel like….”. I shook my head.You get to choose what you desire because you get to chose how you feel. This is what makes a human being different from animals operating on instinct alone. I’m not about to say the homosexually oriented person made a bad or wrong choice but did nonetheless make a choice.My gut says we won’t find a gay gene. Instead we’ll find varying degrees of pair bond behavior governed by individual choices. Face it, we all choose our mates.
Yes Kay we choose our mates, but how can you choose a cock when all you really want is a cunt?
You’re right, I chose my husband. But I don’t believe I chose to like men. I think it’s just the way I am. Just like I don’t believe my friend who likes girls choses to. I think she just does.
I think sexual preference on a very base level is animalistic.take a look at gay penguins. or any of the other species of animal who’ve been identified as having homosexuality exhibitted. there are lots. do a google. now, how we act on that basic drive is a choice- some people chosoe to be closeted, or choose to be interested in on egender at one time, or forever. for others it’s simply a choice of choosing the person,a nd the gender goes a long with it. but for others, they are born straight or gay and that’s it for them.I think choice does play a role, BUT it’s a choice as to how we act on impulses, not a choice to have those impulses or not.
There is probably not a single gay gene. However the lack of a simple genetic explanation for something does not make it non-biological. A prevailing theory is that parts of the fetus’ developing brain can be influenced to go in a female-like direction, or in a male-like direction, depending on the hormonal environment in the womb. Note that this would be developmental and therefore hard-wired by the time the fetus is born, so it not something the growing individual can simply un-choose.Another fairly new hypothesis currently being examined is that gay men are simply a byproduct of a familial line that is basically just more male-focussed all the way through. It gives a competitive advantage because all the females in the line are more male-focussed and thus more likely to have more children. The fact that this male-focus happens to affect some of the men in the family is sort of an accident. (I don’t recall whether the hypothesis worked the other way around to explain lesbians).I don’t think I particularly believe the latter hypothesis but I am providing it as another illustration of a possible mechanism by which homosexuality can arise biologically / genetically without being the result of a “gay gene”.
So, the implication there would be that gay men have straight sisters?
i think it would be some thing like gay men are more likely, but not guaranteed, to have raging nyphomaniac heterosexual sisters.one of the reasons every straight man should have a gay best friend.
To Kay – First off, my comment was tongue-in-cheek… you know, a joke?? Secondly, yes, indeed, MANY heterosexual couples procreate. But there are those who cannot, and – newsflash! They also turn to a third party if they wish to have children.
XYY is more prevalent in women, I believe it’s commonly called Turner Syndrome.. However there are many variants, and the prison population has many who have more X’s, ie: XXXXY.. it seems the more X chromosomes, the more unstable one is likely to be, mentally.My disorder (klinefelter’s syndrome) is much more common than people think. I practically diagnosed myself with research online (1997) while I was still in the military. I brought in a TON of documentation to my Dr, who photocopied most of it to give to his peers. And guess what? Within 2 years, they diagnosed 4 other XXY males at Stadacona alone.
That’s very interesting and congratulations Mike… I commend you for doing your own research and with such great results…Best of luck to you in living with that…But based on what kay has written here, how many extra X-chromo’s would she have… ??? How about Ginger, I’ll bet she would have a lot of extra X’s… Or Allison,,, I’ll bet there’s a whole line of X’s down that DNA chain..
Besides all the kay bashing this is really good stuff! I’m curious why depression would be prevalent in the extra chromosome thingy. Ideas?
I don’t know that anyone said depression specifically, but I would imagine that the extra X chromosomes could cause problems in a number of different ways. The X chromosome has thousands of genes, many of which have nothing to do with sex determination. If these extra copies of X chromosome genes were expressed irregularly, or in higher abundance becuse there are more copies, then those could lead to the physiological abnormalities that might include mental illness and/or a predisposition for socialization problems and crime.
Maybe if you can’t naturally have children you shouldn’t. What does nature know, huh?
Just wait till they start taking the DNA out of a sperm cell and replacing it with female DNA, so that it can fertilize an egg and produce a bay with two biological mothers.
Nature is just that force that we control with our minds Kay. You taught me that. They should just believe they are fertile, right?There are lots more fertile people out there that should not be having kids. I can’t conceive how you can seriously argue that an infertile couple shouldn’t be parents becuase they cannot conceive.You are just stirring the pot, right Kay?
Stirring the pot…laying out bait…trolling for suckers…
P.S. “Nature is just that force that we control with our minds”Score!
Miles, Maybe people are infertile because at a fundamental level they don’t WANT kids. Maybe they despise having a cervix or a set of balls. There’s lots of self-loathing one could relate to sex and reproduction. There’s also the concept of “survival of the fittest” (and the ones who can procreate).Jammie: offer something useful or go back to the thread with no topic.It’s genes from the father that are passed to each child and serve as genetic markers/blueprints which outline heritage. If you remove the male DNA I think you’ll end up with something that’s just not human. Any geneticists in the crowd to clear this up? Never mind, it’s making me a little sick.
ok kay so you’re saying I’m probably not going to be able to have kids because I don’t WANT them? really now. I personally love my cervix, but still I’ve been told by doctors that I will have a very difficult time conceiving. that’s lovely. I know LOTS of couples who have having difficulty concieving who desparatly want children. are they lying?That’s predjudice in disguise right there kay- if you’re uncomfortable with a gay couple having and raising an child, just say so and defend that point. don’t try to mask your opinion by claiming that if you can’t reproduce then a)you shouldn’t anyway and b)you secretly really really don’t want to.
kay: this was a thread on homosexuality. you are talking about infertile couple. please stay on topicalso, please don’t pepper your posts with unrelated content such as that you are feeling sick. it is exceedingly important that you stay completely on topicnow eat my fucking juicy sloppy unwashed man-cunt. does that make you feel a little better?
Please please please DON’T procreate, hedge. There’s a reason you have a tough time conceiving (for lack of a penis in your life, for one). Those same doctors while stroking your hand after a miscarriage, for example, will also tell you there was something wrong and “nature took care of things.”Jammie… grow up or fuck off. I’m sick of you. You ARE Homie
just found this article regarding research on creating “female” sperm and “male” eggs:http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=3&STORY_ID=2149&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1I didn’t find anything more scientific but will look again.
I actually see a lot of validity in the idea that if your body is refusing to conceive, it might just be trying to tell you something. i do worry that over riding natural selection by investing in reproductive technologies may result in the passing on of genes that maybe “weren’t supposed to be” passed on(note that i don’t see it as being deterministic, so “weren’t supposed to be” probably isn’t quite the right phrase)
Oh and hedge, you BELIEVE you’re going to have a problem conceiving. The damage is already done. I don’t know how to fix you and neither do our scientists.From the article Jammie posted:”…although eggs have been created using both male and female DNA, as yet there’s been no sperm successfully created from female DNA. …. Lesbians may be out of luck…”
Consider this too… a woman, complete with all her parts and a man will NOT conceive if her body senses that it cannot sustain the pregnancy. For example, if she’s hungry most of the time, is burning body fat for daily fuel, the body rejects the fetus in favor of spending those resources on keeping the mother alive. This is true also in the animal kingdom and is most evident in bears and foxes of the north.
This is brilliant stuff. Tonight I will suggest to my girlfriend that she stop taking birth control. If we both strongly believe we don’t want kids then there should be no way of getting pregnant.Kay … you should volunteer at planned parenthood!
*raising hand cautiously* I have a question, kay….you totally confuse me….so if I have no problems concieving and have had healthy children in the past, does this mean that adoption should not be an option for me? And if so, who should adopt? In your opinion, not those who can’t have kids….because they really don’t want them!
Oh and hedgy, don’t worry about having a hard time getting prego, the doctors told me the same stuff. “you may need fertility drugs, blah, blah….” I have two now and didn’t try necessarily that hard for them.
Thanks Lori, that was actually what I was suggesting earlier…that the infertile couple (hetero or homo sexual) could adopt and be good parents. I took exception to Kay’s implication that because you are infertile you would not be good parents. Maybe your body is telling you not to push it and have a baby, but that in no way says you should not be a parent.
Some of us are born with different DNA.. Men and women are supposed to be born with 46 chromosomes, the last two determinegender. Usual male is 46XY and women 46XX. I was born as a 47XXY, so I have an extra female chromosome. I used to think thiswas a rare condition, but apparently the average is 1 in 500 malebirths. It’s difficult to diagnose, as there are very few outward signs.However, males do not produce ANY sperm, and need to receiveHRT (hormone replacement therapy) in order to avoid depression,fatigue, lack of focus, and it’s nice having a sex drive! :)I guess I must have not wanted children before I was born! LOLActually this is a disorder that skips generations in my family.So my grandmother, who came from Scotland.. none of her brotherscould have children, so her “line” died out with her…Mikey
I just used myself as an example- I’m in my 20’s and it doesn’t really effect me yet, you know?And while I do agree that yes, in the case of two people who have no scientific reason for having a hard time getting pregnant, mental state may have something to do with it (you hear alot about peopel getting so stressed out about concieving they can’t conceive), in my case and in the case of many others, it’s a hormone thing. combined with a family history of sudden infant death and stillb irths, which let me tell you kay were NOT in anyone’s plan or the result of not thinking positively enough. also, nice work hijacking this thread there kay. I reiterate: I think your real problem is not all this malarky about fertility etc etc. it’s a eugentics argument, where you believe some people shouldn’t be having childen, followed with a nice dollop of homophobia that leads you to a)believe I’m gay- I’m not and b) believe that gay peopel shouldn’t raise children as they can’t make them in the traditional sense.if that’s your argument, if I’ve infered correctly from your assorted posts, why don’t you just argue that?
So much for a strong will free-thinker who sticks up for the underdog.
Thanks Mike for the crash course in genetics but I notice you didn’t mention the other abnormal chromosone variant XYY.I think this code is very prevalant in prison populations,,, and other deviants like kay…