Need a job? Need money for school? Want to do something
meaningful with your life? Military recruiters, working the HRM high
school circuit, say the Armed Forces can offer young people all that
and more, but a group from Citadel High is calling for the removal of
all “armed forces propaganda” and recruiting personnel from schools for
good.
The group, known as Students for Freedom and Socialism, formed
earlier this year in hopes of creating a forum for students to think
critically about what they learn in school and from the media. Their
most recent action is a counter-recruitment campaign, aiming to prevent
the military from recruiting in high schools.
“School is supposed to be a nurturing, neutral environment,” says
April Wise-Gillap, a member of SFS. “We don’t think it’s fair for
recruiters to come into schools and compare working for the military to
going to Dalhousie or Saint Mary’s, especially when it could mean
fighting in Afghanistan, a war that the UN doesn’t support.”
SFS members have different reasons for wanting the military out of
schools, explains Wise-Gillap, but most agree that allowing the armed
forces to recruit in classrooms promotes violence and enables
exploitation of young people, particularly those from low-income
families.
In a city with over 10,000 people employed by the Department of
National Defence, and almost a third of the population estimated to be
directly or indirectly involved in the military, SFS’s anti-military
stance has not been well received.
Nevertheless, when military recruiters set up in Citadel High
School, just after Christmas and again a few weeks ago, SFS did not
keep their views quiet.
“The first time recruiters came to the school, students approached
me complaining they were questioned by other students as they left the
session,” says Citadel principal Tam Fawcett. She explained that while
the 15-to-20 holding anti-war signs were protesting peacefully, they
needed to respect the school’s decision to allow in recruiters.
“I’m all for freedom of speech,” says Fawcett. “It just has to be in
a respectful manner.”
SFS co-founder Omri Haiven says other staff members were more upset
by the students’ actions. “They told us we weren’t respecting our
country,” remembers Haiven, noting that some of his friends have
recently been recruited.
“[My friends] get my concern but say the pay is too good,” he
explains.
“When the government spends less and less on education and more and
more on recruitment, tuition fees will continue to rise, and what
choice do people have but to join the military if they want an
education?”
When military recruiters returned to Citadel a few months later, SFS
was more prepared, armed with pamphlets titled “Top 10 reasons not to
enlist.” The recruiters were set up in the cafeteria and agreed to let
students hand out their materials, but school administration asked them
to go elsewhere.
According to Wise-Gillap, SFSers wanted to stand close to military
recruiters to show students there are alternatives to military life.
“Our perspective is, for students to make an informed decision, they
need to see both sides of the story,” she says.
But Fawcett thinks they are stepping out of line. “I have tried to
explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the
eyes of their peers,” she says, noting she welcomes respectful and
responsible approaches to promoting critical thought.
SFS students have started a petition asking peers, teachers, parents
and community members to sign on to keep military recruiters out of
local schools. The petition is currently being circulated at Citadel,
Halifax West, Cole Harbour and Dartmouth High School, and will
eventually be presented to the Halifax Regional School Board.
“The board would love to hear from the students,” says board
director Irvine Carvery, mentioning that while he supports the
military, he is open to hearing what the students have to say.
He explains that while individual principals can chose to ban
military recruiters on a school-by-school basis, the board would wait
for a province-wide decision before barring military recruiters from
schools.
“It would take a lot of public pressure on the Department of
Education,” he adds.
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This article appears in May 28 – Jun 3, 2009.
I recall a time when there was waiting lists to get into the Canadian Forces. It’s actually nice to see them providing an alternative in a time when jobs are scarce. Maybe they’d be less controversial if they did this sort of thing on a “career day” when all the other prospective employers do it.
I really don’t like it when activist groups add the little “socialist” tag at the end of the name. It makes all of the pragmatic socialists seem like a bunch of smelly hippies. Another thing too, there are places like the RMC that not only give you a world class education, you just need to serve for as little as 5 years and you have that education for free.
Kids being kids. They’ll get over it, become productive citizens with a house, mortgage, car, vacation in Cuba and end end up voting Tory. Let them have their period of rebelliousness, part of growing up.
You got it Joeblow. When I was their age, the Vietnam war was in full swing, and I clearly remember students hurling rocks and bricks at our Canadian troops, screaming “baby killers” and “no more war”…clearly not realizing it was an American “gig” not ours. The only “Canadians” actively fighting in Vietnam, were aboriginals, who claim “no borders” and are by proxy dual citizens. They volunteered to fight for America.
Those were the days, when live TV feeds, whipped up a generation eager to lash out at the first easily identifiable icon of war. If they really want to do some meaningful protesting, they need to go to a job fair, and point out unethical, carbon unfriendly, unfair trade practices of any of the dozens of companies recruiting. Not such obvious targets though. Military uniforms are hard to miss. I digress, just kidding..Joeblow got it right.
I personally would be delighted if my son was recruited by the Canadian Armed Forces. I have paid taxes on thirty years of income and it would be good for some of that money to flow back into my family. It would certainly go down better than a huge student loan debt. In exchange for maintaining your freedom and mine a young person gets an education, some life skills and a chance to grow up. It seems like a win-win situation to me, in many countries young people don’t have the choice, military service is compulsory. We should be glad we have the choice but understand that part of having that choice is allowing the recruiters the same freedom of speech we expect for ourselves.
Back in the 1930’s many such eager European ‘socialists’ went off to fight fascism, and die, in the Spanish Civil War and they were not supported by the League of Nations.
I love how these kids are preaching about something they know hardly about. They should check the facts before they decide to protest.
If they did they would see that the war is in Iraq (where the US Troops are) and our troops are in Aphganistan building homes and trying to rebuild the economy for the civilians over in APHGANISTAN.
These young people are highly intelligent, socially aware individuals who are standing up to educate their peers. They have the right to present their views (freedom of speech) and to oppose the presence of the military in their educational environment (freedom of opinion). One would expect the Administrators of their school to be neutral, and supportive of their rights within a democratic society.
In the 1980s, social activism was brushed off by some as a “period of rebelliousness, a part of growing up”, much like what is happening with the Students for Freedom and Socialism. In reality, this group works hard to encourage critical thought, crush oppression and foster change. My teenaged “rebellion” has lasted for thirty years, with no end in sight.
The tag “socialism” is appropriate and does not diminish other socialist groups. Kudos to these students. They should be applauded. I hope they’re still active when I’m old.
HandyGirl
I appreciate what these students are concerned about, but they are barking up the wrong tree. The duty of the military is to carry out their mission; the government (chosen by the people) decide what the mission is. The Canadian Forces provides a good career and one can leave while still young and carry on a civilian trade or profession. The CF also assist with disaster relief, both domestic and foreign. By the way, show me a socialist country with no military! Believe me, there is no one more against Canada fighting in Afghanistan than I, but this action is a little misguided. But the students should be able to say their piece at the school.
Hurray for the voice of youth and freedom!
I agree with this posse…. it reminds me of what the Americans do in visibly poor communities…..leave the kids alone….. let them have their school and by all means on Career Day military can put up a booth like every one else and show their wares…..
Unless you know what PTSD is and the cost to family, community and society… then I highly suggest that until they include that in the recruiting pamphlet, these ‘forces’ should stay out school.
Speaking of freedom..lets take Carvery’s away..he should be in prison then the unemployment line for racist hate crimes. Maybe the ‘forces’ will take him? PLEASE!!!!
I totally disagree with these students,I find that todays youth are trying to relive the 60s with all the protests we had back and they want to have their own cause to grab on to with little or no knowledge of the very thing they are protesting against!!.
These children need to either be out protesting military recruiting at all levels or protesting all recruiting at their schools. The result of protesting a fraction of this is “hey let’s go see what the emo kids are whining about”
Has anyone seen the “top 10 reason not to enlist” if so, could we get them posted ?
Kudos to SFS!!!
“it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers,”
Wow, this is coming from the principal??? Who’s responsibility is it Ms Fawcett, yours – i.e. those who invite military recruiters to school? Is that how you encourage and nurture critical thought Ms Fawcett: by asking your students to pipe down, abandon initiatives of autonomous learning and organizing, and listen to the “educators” without question? Sounds like students are well trained as drones and ready for military service under the guidance of Ms Fawcett.
@ Dr Fever
I’m not sure what you mean by “pragmatic socialist,” but a free education in exchange for support of an industry that promotes and profits from is not my idea of social solidarity. Not thanks Dr Fever. You might want to read works by Howard Zinn to get a better idea of what socialism means. Go SFS for supporting critical analysis and social solidarity with others around the world – real socialism!
@Joeblow
I’m sorry you don’t have the strength of character necessary to hold convictions. Hope money keeps you happy and distracted from the suffering of others.
@Flyingbrick
I think you need to get your facts checked about Canada’s role in the Vietnam war. Prior to the war, Canada was a heavy financial supporter of France’s colonial rule, and when the Americans began the invasion, Canada continued in offering substantial financial, logistical and diplomatic support; as well as spied on their behalf all the while knowing the atrocities being committed. It was clearly our “gig” too.
“point out unethical, carbon unfriendly, unfair trade practices of any of the dozens of companies recruiting”
That’s exactly what the DND is Flyingbrick! Trying to dismiss SFS for not addressing certain targets while concentrating on another is poor and disingenuous rhetoric. Moreover, the DND is not an easy target – as the reaction against SFS’ actions prove. Because of the ‘noble patriotism veil’ over the generally uncritical perception of Canadians in regards to their armed forces, what SFS is doing is actually exceptionally brave and should be commended. They face a lot more heat for taking on this industry rather than private companies which Canadians haven’t been thoroughly educated to respect without complaint.
@Joelblow
“Back in the 1930’s many such eager European ‘socialists’ went off to fight fascism, and die, in the Spanish Civil War and they were not supported by the League of Nations.”
What’s your point? What has this got to do with military recruitment in high schools? Are you comparing Canada’s military engagements with the Spanish Civil War? I don’t see any parallels, sorry.
@ElleElle84
“the war is in Iraq (where the US Troops are) and our troops are in Aphganistan building homes and trying to rebuild the economy for the civilians over in APHGANISTAN.”
That’s laughable! I think YOU’re preaching about something you know hardly about!
@AtroBoy
While I agree that solely targeting the recruitment desks would be insufficient, it is not “barking up the wrong tree.” They are taking action exactly where their space for ‘supposed critical learning’ is being impinged upon by representatives of an industry that wishes to persuade them. They need to be there in order to provide a countering discourse and to show their discontent exactly where digression occurs. The recruiting table was not chosen to be placed there by members of parliament, but by members of DND. While I agree that petitioning to higher levels of authority is necessary (which they are doing) that does not diminish the importance of acting on the ground, which clearly gets more attention.
By the way, show me a socialist country in the first place! Attempts are more promising today in South America than past (disastrous) attempts elsewhere for sure. And yet these countries do have military forces it’s true. Would you blame them while they are relatively close neighbors of the USA? But that’s not the point. The point is that military recruitment should not be engaged in places meant for critical learning, especially where students are of such a young age!
Oh Jesus Murphy, how the heck can you take them seriously when they can’t even get their facts straight? Newsflash to April, the war in Afghanistan IS A UN AUTHORISED MISSION for Canada because of the ISAF, and passed control to NATO in 2003, which is in line with the UN mandate to assist the Afghan Interim Authority. It did not support the US and their “Operation Enduring Freedom” claptrap.
It’s painfully aware that this is a generation of kids whose grandparents did not live through at least one world war and do not have military in their families.
I wish I had their guts in high school (or now for that matter). I find the most disturbing part of this article the quote from the principal: “I have tried to explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers.” Yikes.
‘But Fawcett thinks they are stepping out of line. “I have tried to explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers,” she says, noting she welcomes respectful and responsible approaches to promoting critical thought.’
Ok, wait, did a principal actually say that? Are you freaking kidding me? Did you really just reject the notion of peer support? Peer education? They’re providing information, not free crack rock…
techcafe – get your head out of your ass! how do you get off comparing the military to pedophiles? And I don’t see you offering a free education to high school students.
I have read the article a few times……Fawcett’s words disturb me each time I read them…….because families and community often do not respond to the questions and issues that face youth..they often must rely on each other for that support, education and mobilization, be it right or wrong on whatever issue….it is often your peers and no other that is in a privy position to open thine eyes….
Sadly because we live in a province and city with so many kool-aid drinkers one is forced to be ‘louder’ in order to be heard….. what a great time for a youth conference..
LETS HAVE DIALOGUE………
Yes, just a bunch of kids. Idiots. Ignorant. Stupid. Arrogant. Ignore them.
Dear April Wiles-Gilap, Becky Thomas, and Coast fact-checkers.
Please google “Security Council Resolution 1386”, “UN General Assembly Resolution 62/6”, “Security Council Resolution 1833”, and “UNAMA”, to learn what the f*** you’re talking about.
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.” –Daniel Patrick Moynihan
I absolutely do believe the SRS has the right to speak their views and have a dialogue with their peers. The recruiters didn’t have a problem with this. It’s a shame the principal and teachers are bigger goons then the supposed thugs. The irony is that these kids are exactly what any organization needs within it’s command structure; critical thinking, the ability to work within a structure even if they don’t have all the cards, team oriented with esprit de corp, the guts to exercise some personal initiative. And they are right. It is a shame the only group that seems interested in their future appears to be the military. Why can’t other organizations get involved in their schools. Don’t kick the military out, invite everyone else in. How about a job fare where they can, at least, talk to many potential employers who can give some real guidance to what future education they could use. Fire, police, Department of Transportation, Fisheries and Oceans, McDonalds…whoever.
sooo… as a member of SFS, i feel like i should clear things up.
1. nowhere has it been said that we oppose the war in Afghanistan for purely pacifist reasons. although individuals within the group may be hardcore pacifists, as a whole we largely believe in the concept of a “just war” as exemplified by the socialist and anarchist efforts in the Spanish Civil War (i happen to have a CNT-FAI flag on my hat). although some of us may oppose the war on purely pacifist grounds, we range fairly widely in reasons. personally, i think it’s simply not an effective way to go about solving a conflict, and i would also note the right of afghans, the overwhelming majority of whom do not support the occupation of their country, to determine their own affairs. it’s also worth noting that Canada is involved in Iraq, in round about way, and one of the major causes of our presence in Afghanistan is to allow the Americans to continue their illegal, imperialist occupation of Iraq while still maintaining a presence in Afghanistan as well.
2. our opposition to war is not interchangeable with our opposition to recruitment. although you may argue that the Canadian military is largely a peace keeping force, very few of those recruited think so. in our efforts to speak to fellow students who are interested in the armed forces, we’ve discovered that those most adamant about enlisting tend to think that they are signing up to play action hero in a real-life video game about killing terrorists. our school condemns violent machismo when it’s proponents wear baggy pants and bandannas, but if they’re wearing uniforms we glorify and protect it.
3. ageism is a form of social prejudice. if you think we’re just “young and rebellious” your a) plainly incorrect, we’ve worked with activists ranging from teens to 50s, all of whom have similar views to us, and this actually includes some of our parents, which makes the rebellion card seem implausible, b)vulnerable to the reciprocal (and equally ridiculous) claim that your views originate from your own age, you only support the military because you’re so behind the times and c) bigoted.
But Fawcett thinks they are stepping out of line. “I have tried to explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers,” she says, noting she welcomes respectful and responsible approaches to promoting critical thought.
Are you f*&%ing kidding me? Of COURSE it is their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers. ANY credible institution of higher education should ENDORSE peers educating peers.
Of course these students have a right to express thier opinions. But there is a big difference between expressing and oppressing. By trying to bar military from the school they are removing a career option, (whether its good or not, up for debate) from other students—essentially making a decision for them.
Just to add to the silliness of this situation, lets put some quotes these people said in perspective:
“Our perspective is, for students to make an informed decision, they need to see both sides of the story,” she says.”
Ok…informed decsisions, getting facts straight, all good, all admirable. However, this group, like many others like it, still has a problem grasping FACTS!!
http://milnewsca.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/…
(link on how Afgh. is a un sanctioned mission) SORRY!
Totally agree with the guy above. Are they protesting college and university fairs as well?
When they visited my high school I ignored them. Let those who are interested follow the path they choose, just as you wish to follow yours.
That being said, I’d like to know their “Top 10 reasons not to enlist”, just out of curiosity’s sake, and given the misinformation in this article (Afghanistan = UN sanctioned.)
The military is a better place to spend your teens and early 20’s than Robie St. High.
anarchothinker: Clearing things up generally does not muddy the water further, FYI. Way to address the glaring factual errors in the article, btw!
Wait, you didn’t, you spouted more inaccuracies. If your school has a debate club, join.
anarchothinker-
1. This ain’t Spain in the 30s nor is it Nicaragua in the 80’s. I guess if you had your way we’d pull out now and throw the locals who’ve already suffered so much to the Taliban wolves.
2. Any good military is just like any good “socialist” demonstration. There’s lots of people who join believing they have something constructive to offer but there’s always a contingent who just shows up for the violence.
3. I’ll be sure and give you a nice shiney loonie next time you clean my windshield at Quinpool & Robie. 😀
In this age of declining resources it’s reassuring to know we have an endless supply of 18 year old kids who don’t know anything.
Vagrant— I’m talking about a pragmatic socialist as a centre left kind of socialist. Fact is; a military is a big part of any socialist government/society. It has to be, because as you move more towards the government (which is the goal of a socialist society), more people need government-sponsored jobs, therefore the military seems a good fit. You should really look to any “communist/socialist” government to see that in action (Sweden is a very good example of this). To your point of me needing to read the works of Howard Zinn, I am fully aware of what he has written, however, may I suggest you read Noam Chomsky’s works, especially those from the American Empire project. He studies the military from a true socialist’s perspective (that being in the light of political science), rather than that of a historian. I leave you with the thought that being a pacifist or being an activist does not make you a socialist. “socialist” is a political term, not a social project.
Many commentators here have lampooned the principal for saying “I have tried to explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers,”. Perhaps she simply means it is each person’s responsibility to open their own eyes. Or it may be a round-about way of telling the students of SFS to stop being jackasses. I’m guessing a little of both.
But then again, authoritarian measures such as banning certain organizations from a school are completely in line with socialism. After all, someone must be “virtuous” and enforce stern measures for “the greater good”.
Joeblow is right. Most of us eventually grow up to varying degrees once we start paying taxes and have a family to look after. It isn’t really a coincidence that socialism, counter-cultural movements, pacifism, and other Utopian ideologies appeal to youth who know little of history, economics, or human nature. Of course, a percentage never do grow out of this adolescent phase.
Note to activists: please stop using “critical thinking” as a buzzword. It will soon lose its meaning, just as “diversity” and “liberty” nearly have at present.
I can’t believe that staff at area schools are permitting military recruiters on their property . . . criticizing those students who have the courage to question this decision is beyond the pale. Military recruiting in high schools is completely inappropriate. Good for SFS for standing up for their beliefs.
@Dr. Fever
I agree that being pacifist or activist doesn’t necessarily make you a socialist, but I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. Socialist is a broad label, and certainly what SFS seems to be doing would appropriately grant them that categorization if they choose to adopt it.
Socialism is an economic term, first and foremost, but of course that inherently also makes it a political term. And therefore, as per anything political, it is a set of theories for the regulation of relations of power within society – which is a social project. I don’t understand how you make a distinction between political and social project, since they are in essence definitions of each other.
Also, I think you’re conflating Socialism, Communism and Social Democracy. There are no Socialist countries in existence as per the general conception of the term in Marx’s and Bakhunin’s time – that is, to have a society free of private ownership and state control. Theorists and activists have had different perspectives on how to achieve a socialist society. The most notable attempts in history to achieve socialist societies have opted for the Marxist-Leninist vision to first establish a state-controlled communist society in order to LATER achieve a truly socialist society. Now, these communist states have varied in form and many would argue all ended up having little respect for Marx’s vision, but in any case none have ever come near becoming a socialist society as envisioned/predicted by Marx and others. And what you refer to as socialist countries such as Sweden, are actually countries that adopt Social Democratic policies (which is also what Canada does to a certain extent) by finding compromises between Capitalism and Socialism. What you refer to as “pragmatic socialism” seems to me to be Social Democracy, which is not Socialism (unlike what Fox News would have us believe!). And I certainly would not refer to Sweden (or Canada, or China, or North Korea) as a socialist country. As well, despite past failures, I don’t think giving up on socialism is pragmatic or realistic in any way. I rather think it is wishful thinking and unrealistic (i.e. utopian) to believe that the current models for “developed” societies – i.e. capitalist liberal (or social) democracies – are the example to set and the norm to accept; considering the fact that humanity now faces more urgent social and environment crises than ever before.
I have to say I find it rather confusing that you defend your statements by mentioning Chomsky. I’m not sure which works of his you’re referring to specifically, but I’m fairly familiar with his positions and arguments and I don’t see how Chomsky – an anarchist and someone who’s referred to Lester Pearson (arguable the father of the contemporary image of Canada’s armed forces) as a war criminal! – would support any of your statements. Chomsky is both extremely critical of military industries and of educational systems, and I’m quite certain would fully support the efforts of the SFS students, whatever they call themselves. Chomsky doesn’t even spare his own employing institution, MIT, from criticism and deplores its ties with private and military interests. I don’t see how he would possibly praise an education received at the RMC in exchange for military service. That, to me, seems completely contrary to what Chomsky would encourage. Please provide statements and arguments to support your claims.
I’m flabbergasted that Fawcett would say what she said, and wouldn’t stand behind those students as much as she stands behind the DND recruiters and their fancy display tables. Those kids are great! They have some convictions and the courage to stand up and voice their opinions in a reasonable way and what has happened is that the school is trying to bully them into silence. SHAME!
Ahhhh…I can feel the critical discourse flowing through the veins of this forum! Aren’t you all thankful to have freedom of speech and opinion? Now try to imagine what would happen if the Grand Poobah of the Coast deleted your posts and told you to take your ideas somewhere else.
It’s great that so many people are interested in swapping definitions, but let’s not lose sight of the real issue here: the Students for Freedom and Socialism have the right to free speech, just like all of us.
HandyGirl: Free speech doesn’t guarantee the right to use a private forum to do so. You can still say stuff, the Coast editors can still delete it if they want to with impunity.
How about this. If any school in any province decides to disallow military recruiters, the feds cut off all equalization payments to that province. Then you’ll hear some whining.
hmm, well it seems i’ve pissed-off some of you with the ‘paedophiles on the playground’ comment… and some hysterical whiners/censors had my post removed. fair enough, mob rules.
the point i was attempting to make though, perhaps not so deftly, was that DoD recruiters are ‘molesting our kids minds’ with military propaganda. in other words, i was speaking figuratively, not making a direct comparison b/w paedophiles and the military.
ok, so poor phraseology on my part… my apologies to those who might have been offended.
HOWEVER, for those who haven’t been paying attention – WAR is a BUSINESS – and the military has turned itself into the TOOLS of the Weapons Industry – the biggest, most profitable enterprise on the planet – it is a WAR MACHINE that generates a huge amount of money for WAR profiteers.
imo, military recruiters are like marketing agents for the military/weapons industries – targeting *children* on school property and actively promoting an agenda of militarism & WAR – shaping/tainting young minds before they’ve even had a chance to properly *inform themselves*
so i’ll say it again – the military has no BUSINESS peddling their propaganda at our children’s schools. AND if our schools are NOT teaching kids about the *actual* horrors and futility of WAR – the REALITY of WAR – then our teachers are FAILING!
but hey, why bother with a higher education when your children can grow up to be cannon fodder for the warpigs?
some other quick thoughts:
military brass often speak of PEACE – whilst actively *promoting* WAR – and military ‘experts’ like to sell us the notion that ‘WAR is PEACE’ (if you believe any of that crap, then you’re even more gullible & brainwashed than you realize)
to purchase an endless array of weaponry and prop-up the military industrial complex in general – the DoD takes BILLIONS of YOUR hard-earned dollars AWAY from more *important* things in life, like civil infrastructure, social programs, higher education, health care, arts & culture, clean energy, sustainable agriculture, yadayadayada… you get the point, the list of needs to sustain modern ‘civilization’ is huge, and ever-increasing.
do we really want to promote a military culture, like in the United States, Israel and other parts of the world?? i, for one, don’t want any part of it.
parents – is there really anything ‘heroic’ about sacrificing your son or daughter to fight (and possibly DIE) in *unjustifiable* WARS? are we OK with imperialist occupation of foreign nations?
kids – do you really want to join the army, shoot & bomb (sometimes torture) fellow human beings, then come home (assuming you survive), possibly injured or permanently disabled and psychologically traumatized… for LIFE?
recruiters – do you speak honestly (to the kids) about the actual horrors of WAR – the actual reality – NO you don’t. instead you dubiously skew the facts with a dishonest portrayal of life in the army – selling the ‘be all you can be’ image, glamourizing WAR & CONFLICT. but hey kiddies, you get to play with high-tech weaponry and ‘travel’ the world… bring it on! or so it is portrayed on the very slick website at http://www.forces.ca, which is replete with heart-pounding flash video and enticing TV ad campaigns. even i have to admit, the forces.ca site is pretty cool! ;~}
FIGHT FEAR – FIGHT CHAOS – FIGHT DISTRESS – FIGHT with the Canadian Armed Forces – Join Us Now – Over 100 Exciting Careers!
anyway, i’ve had my say… i’m done.
ps – aside from myself, who else had their post ‘reported’ and flagged for removal? i was kind of surprised by that, i didn’t think the Coast censored its readers’ contributions, but evidently they do.
Slight quibble about Canadians fighting in Vietnam. The large majority of them were not aboriginals. Also, nobody needs US citizenship to enlist in the US military – simply getting a green card (immigrating) is all you need to do. Any Canadian could do that right *now* if they wanted to. I know some Canadian citizens (and not duals) who have enlisted in the US military at various times over the past few decades, and none of them are aboriginals.
As to the article itself, as far as I’m concerned, let the SFS protest, and let them do so on school grounds, but I also don’t think that CF recruiters should be banned. I’m a veteran myself, and I don’t recall any of my peers from underprivileged backgrounds bitching because they were duped, or thinking they were being taken advantage of…if anything they were delighted to have a well-paying respectable career that gave them more opportunities than they ever would have had otherwise.
Joeblow nailed it – ten or twenty years down the road almost every one of these SFS members is going to, at a minimum, recognize the need for a military, and half of them will be vocal supporters of a strong defense. Right now they’re going through a phase…no harm done.
Swamp Donkey: This is a public forum, not private. The Coast only removes posts that are offensive or threatening.
My point is: SFS students have the right to voice their opinion, even if some disagree with their views.
By the look of those kids in the photo, a year or two in the military might do them some good! Drop and give me 20 maggot!!
Vagrant— The works I cite as a part of “The American Empire Project” (primarily Hegemony or Survival and Failed States). Secondly, I am not saying that someone like Chomsky would support the idea of the RMC. You’ve taken that out of context. Although he is quite right about Pearson being a war criminal, given the strictest sense of of the term.
By stating that big S Socialism is an economic theory “first and foremost” is false. It is a political assignment, which trickles down to the society’s economy by way of the government. I suggest you read the Wikipedia site you’re reading a little more closely. One could also argue it is a philosophical ideal more than anything else.
Totally unfair comment but what the fuck: how many in your group are gong to have their choice of post secondary schooling, anywhere in Canada? Fuck, McGill is probably even an option. Some people aren’t that fortunate. The military is a better choice for them over Walmart, McD’s, or selling drugs. Fuck you all. Go save seals.
HandyGirL: you misread what I said. It’s not a publically owned website, is it? No. The Coast only removes certain posts, but they’re fully allowed to censor anything they see fit.
What does SFS think of the plea to help the people of Darfur ?
How can we help defuse these conflicts quickly and prevent loss of life ?
Never figured that out myself but you can bet some form of ‘military’ involvement would be necessary. Why did Canada allow Tamils in Canada to fund a prolonged civil war in Sri Lanka? I don’t remember the anti-war crowd taking to the streets of Toronto, Ottawa or Halifax because they never seem consistent in their efforts to defend conflict. I have yet to see them march to condemn the thousands of Chinese troops in Sudan.
Complaining about DND recruiters is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel and requires no intelligence, thought or dedication.
It’s just a cheap and easy way to get attention. Rent-a-student then become rent-a-hippie, then become rent-an-aging-hippie, then finally become rent-a-raging-granny, then its off to the old folks home to complain about the food or ask for dinner 20 minutes after being served dinner.
Fill your boots, enjoy the demos, enjoy your freedom – it came at a high price.
Swamp Donkey: The Coast may be allowed to edit anything they want, but they don’t. Only offensive or threatening comments are removed, regardless of who makes them. I think you’re missing my point. The Coast would be biased if they removed only the posts that favoured one side of an issue, which is what Administration at Citadel High has done.
***
Joe Blow and Realist in Dartmouth: Activism is not a phase. That’s what I’m printing on my next batch of posters. I’ll be saving one for the archives, along with ‘free speech’,’free choice’ and ‘free nelson mandela’. Because of activism, I will also enjoy marking my X on June 9.
HandyGirl- You say ‘Activism is not a phase’
I say, it depends what you mean by ‘Activism’. Trot on down to Habitat for Humanity and weild a hammer or whatever for a day when next they build a home or homes, you’ll quickly see the results of what I call ‘Activism’.
Better yet, you could have put your name on a ballot for June 9 and then wandered the streets seeking to persuade people of your desire and abilities to handle public office. Wandering around putting up posters and sloganeering is quite useless, it’s as bad as Raging Grannies standing outside the Library singing some tune about George Bush or whomever and then trotting off home for a perrier or white wine. All good fun and it looks good on TV News or in the Herald.
And for most of the young rent-a-crowd it is a phase because when they start to feel the need to have a job with benefits,a pension, and a family, a house, and dance or music lessons for the kids, they quickly become very middle class and the ‘right school’ and buying a house in a ‘nice area’ become important. That phase of life takes precedence for obvious reasons.
No group should be allow to exclude themselves from the armed forces. It’s to easy to start a war, fight a war, or protest one when there’s not direct effect on you.
You get very bad outcomes when the far ends, rich-pour or right-left are allowed to rant amoung themselves.
No group should be allow to exclude themselves from the armed forces. It’s to easy to start a war, fight a war, or protest one when there’s not direct effect on you.
You get very bad outcomes when the far ends, rich-pour or right-left are allowed
There’s an old saying “If you’re not a socialist when you’re 35, you don’t have a heart, if you’re still a socialist when you’re 70, you don’t have a brain.”
Just swap activist with socialist and it holds I think.
HandyGirl: So removing the recruiters out of the schools wouldn’t be biased?
As I read the article, the administration is fine with the kids handing things out, their petitions, and their opposing opinions. They did not however want them in the cafeteria with the recruiters themselves(which I think would have made more practical sense, and the recruiters obviously didn’t mind). What most likely got them removed is the fact that students were coming to the principal complaining about being questioned by the protesting students after talking to the recruiters. It’s apparently methodology, not ideology, that the administration has a problem with.
SwampDonkey-
yes removing military recruitment from the schools would make the schools less biased. the administration has said to us quite specifically that we were being asked to leave because the recruiters asked the administration to ask us to leave. when asked why the wishes of military recruiters are given more credence than the wishes of actual students, the answer given has been that as “invited guests”, the recruiters must be protected and have their needs met by the admin. the staff members who confronted us in the cafeteria said that the military didn’t mind what we were doing, but wanted us to keep a respectful distance, which in this case was apparently in a different room.
not to mention that the army has somewhat greater resources than the small volunteer groups of students trying to educate their peers in their spare time.
so what we propose is an even playing field. by all means members of the student body who feel passionately about the military may inform their peers of the wonderful opportunities the “troops” offer. they have every right to express that opinion. and they can spend their lunchtimes and evenings discussing the issues, finding info etc. it is in no way an attack om freedom of speech to object to one side of a debate having a massive and artificial advantage, which includes the ability to gag the other side, or at least make it’s attempt to speak ineffective.
Nooo, kiddo, I’m saying removing them from the schools would be biased, not less biased.
Actual students were apparently wishing for you to leave them the hell alone if they were complaining. How does the military have an artificial advantage over you, precisely? You’ve got the ball in your own court, so to speak. They’re not gagging you, so quit trying to make out that they’re stuffing a khaki sock down your throats. If not being allowed in the same room to compete with them is making your protesting ineffectual, ur doin it wrong.
So how’s that fact checking going, btw? Actually figured out the correct details of the matter you’re protesting about? And I know I and a few others are still waiting for your “top ten” list with bated breath. I’m sure there’s no holes in that at all.
Oh and PS to “not to mention that the army has somewhat greater resources than the small volunteer groups of students trying to educate their peers in their spare time.”
So basically “bawwwww we’re trying to be rebels but they’re bigger so we need to recruit the help of the establishment to help fight…. the establishment”. Seriously doing it wrong.
Go Home Kids….the Military is a legitimate way to make a living!….& RMC provides a lot of young Canadians with accelated post secondary educations that many of YOU will not be able to afford otherwise.
HandyGirl: activism is clearly not a phase for *you*. It sure is for the majority of people, though. I’m going by my memories of my peers in HS and uni…25 years later there are precisely none of them, that I am aware of, that even have the same attitudes, let alone still are active in whatever causes they were active in then. Although some are admittedly still active in other causes (which when you’re in your late 40’s may be a lot more pragmatic, like supporting health care funding, or being an environmentalist).
One cause that does seem to dwindle real fast after one’s 20’s is anti-militarism, particularly as it relates to activism of the sort we are discussing here. Most people come to recognize that a strong military is a good thing to have.
Swampdonkey- we’re NOT trying to be rebels, you’re just trying to write us off with that tactic. we have no issue with “the establishment” that is our school, provided it’s willing to act as an educational institution, which should really encourage peer education and discussion of all topics. “the establishment” we have an issue with is the military industrial complex, and in this specific case the military, which is trying to encourage ignorance to keep itself staffed. an educational institution should of course fight against ignorance: that’s it’s function.
“How does the military have an artificial advantage over you, precisely?”
well, a) as long as they are invited guests, the administration is expected to take their side, which means effectively gagging students, and actively preventing a two sided discussion of the issues.
b) they have a lot more in the way of an advertising campaign. an ideological issue cannot be disputed fairly when one side has tax dollars and the other has volunteers.
Joeblow and other ageists: What you are doing with the old “they’re just rebellious kids” brush-off is called an “ad hominem attack”: instead of actually debating a point you attack a personal quality of those making it.
I will ask you this: If we, as youth, are incredibly immature why the would you support arming the more violent of our peers and sending them off to foreign lands as representation of your country?
Your dismissal of high school students would logically lead you to the position that they should not, under any circumstances, have access to weapons, never mind the training to use them with deadly accuracy!
Forget using tax money to pay for the training of these children…
Bottom line:
When a teen/ young-adult becomes involved with the military it will change their life forever. Sure, there are some programs that allow young people to serve only a few years, but generally they have you for life. Not only is it usually a life long commitment, but it is a life-risking commitment. We believe, as members of this group of young adults, that it is not fair for the armed forces to use tactics, like fancy advertising and targeting the poorest of us with the prospect of financial security, to keep us from thinking about what we are getting ourselves into.
Our point is that we ARE young, we ARE impressionable, and that we CAN be immature, and many of us have not had enough time on the planet to really understand ourselves or our personal philosophies. I believe a school should be a place of nurture, a place for one to be able to grow and mature, and many of us feel that the military recruiters’ presence is disruptive to such an environment.
I’m really sorry if this comment seems divided or lacking flow, but it was written by two different people.
Anarchothinker & friend : I think your school colleagues are quite capable of realising a career in DND may result in death, either from combat, peace keeping, rescuing people on land or sea, or from boredom at a desk job. It’s not as though the students think the Army is just a grown up version of the Boy Scouts with a couple of weeks camping in the woods and marching around doing drills.
Don’t be so arrogant that you know more than your colleagues. When I went to work right out of school I chose a dangerous profession,not for the thrills, but because I wanted to be well away from a cosy environment and be given a lot of responsibility and challenges at a young age. Made quite a difference to how I viewed the world and other people. Grew up a hell of lot faster than most of my fellow students.
You’re still ignoring questions about your fact checking and your top ten list kiddo. And I’m dismissing you because you clearly don’t know your ass from your elbow. For one, how about acknowledging that other students are allowed to talk to recruiters without you crusading up in their faces?
You need to figure out what the fuck it is you’re actually protesting, and how to say it, because right now you’re like a mental rat king that can say “military complex bad” and “you um, might get killed”.
And writing with two people has not improved the fact that you cannot present a streamlined and intelligent discourse. Do they have writing workshops at your school? I suggest you invest your time in one. They’ll probably make you enroll for your English requirement in university anyway at this rate.
Prove that being invited guests means that the administration must automatically be on their side. Prove that the military is trying to encourage ignorance.
“b) they have a lot more in the way of an advertising campaign. an ideological issue cannot be disputed fairly when one side has tax dollars and the other has volunteers.” BAWWWWWW. And again, THEY ARE NOT GAGGING YOU. If you can’t get your message out because you’re not in the same fucking room you moron, you’re a shit act.
Goddamn ban those fancy adverts! They’re corrupting your impressionable minds! They’re not targeting poor people, they’re targeting competent, driven people, which is something not restricted to class. I’m trying to decide if you’re being obtusely classist with this bullshit statement.
They have you for life? Are you really THAT unaware of the armed forces? I work with a crapload of people who have served, many of whom retire before 40-45 and move on to other careers.
And sending the more violent of our peers off to represent our country? WTF? Do you even KNOW how recruiting works? The fact that there are physical and psychological tests? The amount of discipline imbued? Every single military person I have met has been the epitome of manners and civility.
I am perfectly fine with them representing us, and trying to bring peace to people being preyed on by extremists. Sure let’s pull them out, I’m sure that the Taliban won’t sweep in and put the populace under their thumbs. It’s not like they do crazy things like throw acid in the faces of schoolgirls or anything.
“‘the establishment’ we have an issue with is the military industrial complex, and in this specific case the military, which is trying to encourage ignorance to keep itself staffed. an educational institution should of course fight against ignorance: that’s it’s function.”
How is the military actively “encouraging ignorance”? By continuing its own existence via recruitment of high school graduates? Are they representing a tour in Afghanistan as a Boy Scout Jamboree, with marshmellows and hot cocoa?
“joeblow and other ageists: What you are doing with the old “they’re just rebellious kids” brush-off is called an ‘ad hominem attack'”
I agree that ad hominem attacks should not be employed. However, ageism is perfectly appropriate to a certain extent. An eighteen year-old may legally be an adult, but his or her brain continues to physically develop (specifically, myelination occurs) into the mid-twenties, with a gain in the capacity for abstract thought. And experience counts–there is a reason that prime ministers and CEOs tend to be in the middle to late middle age stages of their lives. Stop and think about how you thought the world worked just five years ago.
Part of the reason that many people are somewhat pissed at your group for taking this position is that you are advocating a form of censorship: “We should ban an organization whose views I don’t agree with from this high school”. You are deciding what your peers should be exposed to, and preaching in their faces that you know better than they do. That is a profoundly illiberal and arrogant notion.
I would suggest holding off on any age discrimination charges until it actually matters. Like when you’re in your 50’s trying to get a job alongside less experienced 20/30 something candidates. Even the military is hesitant about hiring people over 30 which kind of reverses that whole stupid “ageism” argument in favor of their demographic.
Still waiting for the top ten list, anyone?
Quite the shocker – “It’s not the responsibility for students to open their peers’ eyes?” What a bunch of baloney. Why do you think ‘peer reviewed’ studies and ‘peer based’ learning environments are regarded in the top tier of academic exchange. Granted, they are young, but how else will they learn? From censored teachers who are scared to speak their minds and toe the schools boards’ company line? The more questions they ask, the better; if they come up with an answer of their own, let them speak it. Disseminate the information and expose the issues: i.e. adolescents have few choices about how to get into the work force after high school and/or further their education. The military lures them with cash, but just wants to put a gun in your hand and a flag on your sleeve. My flag. Our flag.
If you are a natural born killer and want nothing more than to shoot people and be shot at in the name of Stephen Harper, fill your boots. Free funeral, right? Wow, that could really help out the household budget.
Let’s give our youth some real options that don’t include violence, and that starts with the drafting of a national youth policy.
Bravo to the high schoolers standing up for what’s right: Free Speech and advocacy for something they believe in. The quick cash they refuse from the military now will pay larger dividends down the road in the form of a clean conscience and no blood on their hands.
why is the military invited back more than once? do the universities also get asked back every time the military is invited?
tam fawcett is the same person who tried to ban hoodies at school. maybe she should invite the military to volunteer their time and resources to finish building the theatre.
students should be allowed to have a say in who is invited to their school. IT’S THEIR SCHOOL!!! so some students complained about sfs but what about the sfs students who complained about the military?
lots of people are arguing but when you make judgemental comments about someone based on their age, you only show how immature you are.
school should be neutral. sfs took a stand when they heard about recruiters coming. what would happen if the pro-life/choice or pro/anti-seal hunt people came and set up a booth? who would fawcett ask to leave? obviously the group that she does not agree with.
@Dr. Fever
I’m sorry I misread your intention, but if the context isn’t you defending “pragmatic socialism” as you call it, and then offering the pragmatic example of an RMC education in exchange for service, then I’m lost as to what the context is…
Second, as I’ve said, I agree that socialism is inherently political as any social theory, just as, sure, it is inherently philosophical as well. But I stand by my opinion that it is primarily an economic theory since it has been devised as an alternate set of strategies for production and resource distribution in opposition to the logic of capitalism. So it begins as an broad economic model which requires concordant political structures. Marx never really theorized on that later piece of the puzzle, which is why people like Lenin, Mao and others have had to make their own political theorizing on how to achieve this through varying attempts – sadly, the most popular being pretty atrocious as it turns out… and the most prominent contemporary Marxist theorists or others sympathetic to socialism, that I know of, would agree that the reason behind the failures is because of the use of repressive state control and militarism which prevented the realization of socialism.
I haven’t read American Empire Project, so I don’t know the arguments you’re referring to. But I do know that both Chomsky and Zinn are strong advocates for socialism and anarchism (which have many overlaps – and should not be confused with totalitarian communism). I read the Wikipedia article you recommended and found nothing really to challenge my arguments, and in fact found it rather contradictory. But I guess that’s representative of folklore knowledge (which is what Wikipedia is) and reflects the multiple interpretations of a concept like socialism. Personally, to get a better understanding of the principles behind socialism (at least as I see them), I would suggest reading Marx himself, and then update that with writings by contemporary theorists like Negri, Holloway or Zizek – none of whom are in support of state and military as they exist today. But all this is semantics and besides the issue of the article. If you’re unconvinced by my arguments, fine, but I don’t care much to go on about this, sorry.
@Joeblow and others arguing that anti-military activism is inconsistent, and therefore to be dismissed – conflicts ARE inconsistent in context and purpose, and therefore should be addressed as such. There is a big difference between imperial military intervention from countries founded on colonial principles and local civil conflicts – which actually often have their root causes in imperial interventions from other countries. Those arguing the benefits of military intervention would do well to read Chomsky and Zinn.
@Andrew_S
Have you taken a look at the DND website lately? It looks like a video game! And yes, cool action and adventure is EXACTLY what they advertise! Sure, students are aware of the risk of death, but that’s glorified. Nothing nobler than to die fighting for your country, or fighting to help others, right? (Never mind you’re making the problem worse and not actually helping). You don’t see the recruiting tables showing scenes from Full Metal Jackets, or post-traumatic stress statistics, or articles of Gen. Dallaire found naked and suicidal in a public park, or advertising the fact that the Taliban got power because of military invasion in the first place, or that Canada never bothered to be concerned by the Taliban until the US had a favour to ask. Where’s that info at the recruiting tables? I guess I have to be satisfied with my cool looking fridge magnets and the promises of debt relief in exchange for service that will make me look cool and noble.
@SwampDonkey
Your argumentation is so specious, baseless and libelous that I don’t even know where to begin. Let me just address the issue of biased representation. Students and the recruiters ask the administration to have the protesters removed, the administration complies. The protesters (who are students and members of the school community) ask the administration to have the recruiters removed, and are denied this service because the recruiters are favoured guests of the administration. That’s bias, plain and simple. (And why hasn’t the administration also invited representatives of an organization that offers alternate arguments to that of the DND?) Also, responding to the argument that recruiters have much more influential power because of available resources with “BAWWWWW” is not only not an argument, it is totally contemptuous.
It has already been pointed out that many if not most arguments levied against the student protesters are in fact personal attacks rather than debate. This forum is filled with patronizing and disrespectful dismissals that exemplify an unwillingness to even consider arguments that challenge comfortable norms and a preference to delegitimize them with stereotyping.
SwamDonkey, your last post was particularly vile and nothing much more than a vulgar rant. I considered reporting it, but decided to leave it there because through it you delegitimize both yourself and your arguments, and provide proof as to why efforts must be made to foster critical and creative thought in our schools.
“@Andrew_S
Have you taken a look at the DND website lately? It looks like a video game! And yes, cool action and adventure is EXACTLY what they advertise! Sure, students are aware of the risk of death, but that’s glorified. Nothing nobler than to die fighting for your country, or fighting to help others, right? (Never mind you’re making the problem worse and not actually helping). You don’t see the recruiting tables showing scenes from Full Metal Jackets, or post-traumatic stress statistics, or articles of Gen. Dallaire found naked and suicidal in a public park, or advertising the fact that the Taliban got power because of military invasion in the first place, or that Canada never bothered to be concerned by the Taliban until the US had a favour to ask. Where’s that info at the recruiting tables? I guess I have to be satisfied with my cool looking fridge magnets and the promises of debt relief in exchange for service that will make me look cool and noble.”
I have, in fact, examined both the DND and Canadian Forces Recruiting sites. Like any promotional material, they will accentuate the positive and leave out the negative. It is the viewer’s responsibility to interpret what they see with a critical eye. Provided they aren’t telling you outright lies, they can say whatever they want to. Their reputation will be made based on their actions–and our military currently has a very high reputation internationally, despite its limited resources and personnel.
It would be ludicrous to expect the recruiters to show scenes from Full Metal Jacket and other such material–that is like saying a university should show students slamming their heads against their desks during final exams in their advertising campaigns. Instead, they show smiling groups of students sitting under trees on a sunny summer day, presumably passing the time discussing the meaning of life. Reality is, of course, somewhere in between these two extremes.
We are in Afghanistan because the West is at war with radical Islam, and the Taliban are a major component of radical Islam. I have seen someone close to me gradually embrace radical Islam, so I know the mindset firsthand. These zealots will not leave us alone if we withdraw, because they violently reject modernity, something our society represents. They will come knocking on our doorsteps (U.S. embassy bombings in Nairobi, Tanzania, and Dar es Salaam; 9/11; London tube bombings; Madrid; trans-Atlantic bombing plot; Bali; Mumbai). Remember that these are men who deliberately target civilians (including schoolchildren and their teachers), are funded by opium and heroin, and who will publicly stone to death young teenage girls for refusing marriage proposals and going to school. They are barbarians, and we must stand against them without compromise. Not only must we defeat them on the battlefield, we must defeat their ideology by remaking and rebuilding their societies. That involves developing Afghanistan’s economy, sending girls to school, allowing women to work, and establishing the rule of secular law (perhaps with some concessions early on for popular local acceptance). Call that imperialism if you want, but it is far better than the alternative of throwing the locals to these lowlifes and setting ourselves up for further attacks.
Vagrant: The point was to be contemptuous, since they are so obvously grossly uninformed about what they are protesting. pointing out flaws in their stance and post doesn’t seem to produce any valid counterpoints(still not seeing if they’ve acknowledged they are using false information to back their claims by MULTIPLE people). I’ll try to make that clearer next time.
Go ahead and report me if you want, I’m not an uniformed high school student so I promise not to get butthurt.
PS: you obviously are and you’re doing the same things you accused me of, cupcake. I’m just not hauling out my thesaurus to do it.
@Dr. Fever
I just realized that the last sentence of my reply to you sounds like I’m asking for the last word – which was not my intention. If you wish to counter-argue what I’ve last posted, that’s totally fair, but I probably won’t go on further myself – that’s all I meant. I’ve said what I have to say on that topic, so basically we’d have to agree to disagree.
God, Ms. Fawcett’s words frighten me. Schools are a place to nurture developing minds, and the fact that she states: “I have tried to explain to the students, it is not their responsibility to open the eyes of their peers,” just boggles me. This is the same woman that wanted to ban hoodies at Citadel High–and how would that stop miscreants?–when any fucking 6 year old could say: “Just don’t let them wear their hoods up?” How about that theatre now? I’m going to graduate and I don’t get to go in the fucking theatre!
You don’t have to agree with the issue of banning the military presence within schools–frankly, I do not agree with some of it, but the SHIT that comes from that woman’s mouth is atrocious. As a member of Citadel High, I respectfully participated in the protest by holding up a sign during the two times when military recruiters came. We were a respectful distance away from the door, we did not interfere in any physical manner. I don’t even recall one student in a confrontation with us; some of us were fairly vocal, but the administration’s actions are beyond acceptable. We did not “question other people as they left the session”; it was their own decision and we are not trying to state what they should believe in. We are just endorsing critical thinking: to think beyond what is being told of us.
Firstly, there were no administration members observing the actions of the military recruiters within the room.
The decision to join the military, in my honest opinion, is not something that one can just propose to youth whose brains have not been fully developed, much less without teacher supervision. It is ultimately a different decision than going to a university or a community college in that there is a likely chance you may be enrolled into the military, into Afghanistan or involved in Iraq. It provides a strong education standard, and the chance to serve the glorious country that we live in, but it is not something you can choose on the off-chance. As another student has already noted, many students do not conceive this decision correctly–ultimately, the recruiters glorify war and serving your country, as something of “a real-life video game about killing terrorists.” That being said, I don’t mind their presence in the career fair, where students can take information and leave while under administration’s supervision. The military didn’t mind what we were doing and they don’t need their resources to dog a bunch of teens around…
“by all means members of the student body who feel passionately about the military may inform their peers of the wonderful opportunities the troops offer. they have every right to express that opinion. and they can spend their lunchtimes and evenings discussing the issues, finding info etc”…I concur. This presence is not disruptive, so long as we understand what we are getting into and obtain the knowledge for an INFORMED DECISION. Going once and obtaining information from the military is not an example of that! Many nights of talking and expressing opinions IS!
“Goddamn ban those fancy adverts! They’re corrupting your impressionable minds! They’re not targeting poor people, they’re targeting competent, driven people, which is something not restricted to class. I’m trying to decide if you’re being obtusely classist with this bullshit statement.” Now this is ridiculous. Not once have we stated that we should ban advertisements; in fact, so long as the students are informed, I have no problem with advertisements. But let’s face it; teens do have impressionable minds and, to some degree, they target people of all classes, including the poor classes without resources to make a decision like that. That’s not a bullshit statement; it’s realistic.
The ageism also has to stop; ageism is a form of social prejudice. As to what some other students have said about tactics being violent or that the military is not peaceful, that is ignorant and arrogant. There are plenty of great things the military does– peacekeeping, emergency work, etc.. That should not be the basis of an argument.
At the end of the day, it’s all about creative and critical though and freedom of speech, and the fact that the student body was violated from speaking disgusts me. They placed us into another room, for Christ’s sake, even though we were peacefully protesting! Ask others within the administration and the teachers in the hallways. The petition is circulating around and I invite anyone who feels the same to sign.
Joe Blow: The poster remark was metaphorical, and this argument isn’t about me or whether my activist lifestyle is activist enough. It’s about SFS students and their right to speak about their beliefs to their peers in their own school. Free speech, plain and simple.
Swamp Donkey: If you remove one political party from election debates, would the debate be biased? Of course it would. When only one side is permitted to speak, the message is biased. SFS students have the right to complain about the military being in their school and other students have the right to complain about SFS. It is not up to Administration to decide whose views are more valid. Administration has obviously received complaints about the military being there from SFS, yet the military were not asked to leave – they were invited back! This is not some dude throwing shoes at Bush – it is an organized group of peaceful, intelligent students who do not want recruiters in their school.
Realist in Dartmouth: The question here is not whether we should have a military – it’s whether the military should be permitted to recruit children in the classroom.
This just in: The exterior billboard at Citadel High School is now a giant advertisement for military recruitment. Eghads!
HandyGirl: and obviously there were complaints about the SFS from students. Yet they can still hand out their pamphlets, set up meetings about it, start petitions, start websites(if they haven’t done this, it’s a fabulous way to network, particularly with this generation), etc. Again, I repeat, they are not being gagged by not being permitted in the same room with them. I’m sure if the SFS was holding an info session, they’d be pretty pissed if recruiters were nailing everyone who talked to them.
I understand the support for the military in NS, but these kids make a really solid point. A school should be a neutral place to learn and if students care to look into the Armed Forces, they can do it on their own time. You can support Canadian troops and still support this action.
I also find it interesting to see parents supporting this as a career choice. The possibility of death does not seem apparent to these people…
We don’t let corporate identities like McDonald’s into our schools to recruit… this has nothing to do with the Freedom of Speech act. Schools have the right to allow neutral and education-based organizations into their building to recruit, but considering the fact that the Armed Forces is training people to go to war, they should not be considered neutral.
Mortparn: So then parents shouldn’t support anyone working in a factory, doing construction work, or being a police officer, or a firefighter, or welding, or, see how this goes? The possibility of death isn’t some giant hovering monster just because it’s the military.
And have you seriously never been to a career fair at your high school before?
As a local high school teacher (not at Citadel), I applaud the efforts of SFS both for their organizing and for their intelligent, well thought-out responses in this comment thread. Take comfort in the fact that you’re coming across as much more intelligent than Mr. (or Ms.?) SwampDonkey.
And yes, you’re right; the fact that the military has an enormous budget and resources and that you’re volunteers *does* matter. I’d be proud to have you as my students!
GoKidsGo: “And yes, you’re right; the fact that the military has an enormous budget and resources and that you’re volunteers *does* matter.”
Sure, the fact that the military has a bigger budget and resources matters… in the same sense that it matters to the Iraqi fighters. What does any entity do when they can’t enter any conflict on the same terms as their enemy? Don’t fight on their terms.
Taking a pragmatic approach bears more fruit than the idealistic approach. While the idea of getting equal “airtime” is an ideal one, it’s not practical. You’ve said it yourself… They have more resources. Instead, leverage your advantages. The students know the other students and have rapport. Utilize their strengths, don’t try to go head to head with someone stronger than you in their chosen area…
This is common sense, but some people would rather complain and put on a nice show instead of actually being effective.
LOL GoKidsGo, are you shitting me? They can’t even get their facts straight. I have no problem with them protesting, or their stance. I marched in university, and continue to do so against tuition increases, the Iraq war and the WTO, and research fully before I decide to sally forth. I DO have a problem with their obvious lack of knowledge of their chosen subject. Thinking something out well does not make it a grounded and correct statement. All it does is turn your protest platform into a joke. Case in point.
I would enjoy listening to the Military come to my high school to recruit. Image all the pictures of dismembered Canadian soldiers, bombed out armored vehicles, dead children, etc they could show us on a projection screen. “Be all you can be”….in blown up mini pieces. If you support the troops, you support war and death!
HandyGirl: I dislike the word “children” when it comes to late stage teenagers, high-school age young people in other words. Sure, a 16 or 17 year old is legally a minor, and I suppose by some stretch you can refer to them as children, but I haven’t recently met anyone of that age who likes being referred to as a child.
Should the military be allowed to recruit young people in school? Well, that is certainly the question, isn’t it? I think most young people are capable of exercising some judgment as to whether the military is a career for them or not. Calling someone impressionable or saying that they are susceptible because of economic pressures is rather condescending.
Although I would defend with my life, their right speak their minds. The unfortunate fact is these kids are truly misinformed. They state “especially when it could mean fighting in Afghanistan, a war that the UN doesn’t support”. The fact is, the mission in Afghanistan is a NATO led, UN sanctioned mission. They talk about the CF using depleted uranium ammunition, which is also incorrect. If you read their pamphlets there is a lot of inaccurate information.
It would be interesting to hear what someone who was around for when Canada had a draft thinks of this. I’m guessing something like “what’s the big deal – no one’s forcing anyone to even so much as listen”. What a difference a few generations make.
The reason these little idiots can circulate their stupid petition is because we have such a great country with a strong military supporting it. Maybe what these CHILDREN should be reminded of is that they are privleged to be getting an education, let alone food, shelter, etc … more than what some in the world receive. Use your extra energy saving the world in another way, please, because we all know you’ll be the first ones in line crying for help from our brave soldiers should you ever need it. God help you if you do.
Young people considering joining the military need all the facts,
and help with making the right choice about whether to be a soldier or not.
Some the information they need to consider is:
— what is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Do I run the risk of suffering with this. What help is available is this happens to me?
— why are suicide rates and family violence more prevalent in the military than society at large?
— Am I prepared to kill another human being? How does this fit with my personal beliefs?
— Are there other ways to serve Canada that are just as valid, that I might prefer?
— Do I deal well with authoritarian social structures?
— Are the military recruitment ads really representative of what I might experience in the military?
— If I change my mind, is it possible to get out?
If the education system or other institutions, such as faith groups, can’t or won’t help young people explore their beliefs and get the full story, then it appears young people are left alone to try to cut through the enlistment message, which of course the military will make all rosy.
I wish these young people well, and hope they get the respect
and support they deserve.
Roger Davies
Peace and Social Concerns Committee
Halifax Friends Meeting (Quakers)
To all you anarchists, quakers, socialists, and freaks out there …
Simply put, do you really believe Canada can be without a military? And if it’s not made up of young men and women, who should it be made up of, then?
And Roger Davies, tell me who should be responsible for giving kids the ‘full story?’ You? The Canadian Forces is a respectable institution that has been around longer than anyone writing comments on this piece. They answer questions, and are fully aware of the sacrifices involved — remember that the recruiters are members, too.
I enjoy you ‘enlightened’ few who get to sit in your professor’s chairs, head in ass, and tell the rest of us the right way to live. Do you think you’ve been given a gift of rational thought that no one else has? You act as though you are above your peers.
Do you really think that the person who chooses to enlist when the military recruits at school is ignorant of what is at stake?
Reality check, people, to give your life to something is an honourable thing. It says a lot about your character when you put others before yourself. What have you done to help the world today? Bitch about propaganda and conspiracy theories? Please.
That student that just enlisted is going to save your ass someday.
Kudos to these kids for standing up for what they believe in. Schools are for education, and should not be used for military recruitment. This is not to say that no-one should join the military. Of course Canada needs to have a strong military. If these students want to enlist, there are many avenues open for them to do their own research and contact the military on their own. School should be about exposing our young to all the possibilities open to them, not only the military ones.
Congrats Students!
The Armed Forces, as an occupational choice, should be offered on an organized Career Day where other options are also present.
Pushing propaganda on anyone, whether it be military or otherwise, is a violation of human rights.
RESPONSIBLE MOM – you should be looking for alternatives to getting thirty years worth of taxes back into your family (if it means that much to you) rather than being “delighted” that your son join the military. Maintaining freedom is achieved through education and peace, not through fighting and war. Believing that your personal freedom is at risk unless we go to war is like believing the world is flat just because everyone else says it is.
Public Relations was born out of a need to find an alternative word for Propaganda.
Look it up folks.
Empower yourself through knowledge.
As a teacher, I have to say these students make me so proud. Having spoken with them myself, they embody the critical thinking skills and democratic engagement that are necessary if we are to have any sort of viable democracy. They have the personal strength to question what they are being told and to put their views out there even if it ripples some feathers.
The military should not be targetting students in school settings. They do not tell the truth about missions, careers, risks, and the fact that they are currently engaged in a completely immoral and illegal war in Afghanistan. Spending resources on thirteen years of schooling just to send them off to kill or be killed is insanity.
I support the SFS and other students working to make their schools more just spaces that should primarily address the needs of the students and not of the administration.
mrs c in response to:
“Reality check, people, to give your life to something is an honourable thing.”
-to blindly give your life away is foolish and stupid; to harm others because of a fear born of ignorance is a crime
“It says a lot about your character when you put others before yourself. “
-and then shoot them…yup that says a lot…
“What have you done to help the world today? Bitch about propaganda and conspiracy theories? Please.”
-i think i did a lot to help the world today, actually…i didn’t punch, kick, stab, shoot, or drop a bomb on anyone…i didn’t assist in the projection of military dominance over an impoverished country…i didn’t drive in a gas powered vehicle today…i didn’t buy one thing from the united states and had a lovely locally produced meal with my friends this evening…
Peak oil, unsustainable ways of living, natural gas deals for the TAPI pipeline that will run through Kandahar, and a failing empire to the south that is struggling to maintain its military superiority as the only superpower isn’t a bunch of conspiracy theories-this is a reality that many are willfully choosing to ignore.
We need these students (SFS and others) with creative minds and problem solving expertise that can cut through the bull and help us to deal with these very real global issues.
Soo they can question what they’re told but put out pamphlets with a Loose Change vibe filled with misinformation and propaganda about the forces? How about teaching them the real info about the war, or that Canada doesn’t use depleted uranium in weapons there, undercover?
FFS undercover, get your nose higher up your own ass so you can smell those organic wheatgrass farts of yours.
Know what else is in the CF? DART.
“to blindly give your life away is foolish and stupid”
Nice arrogance AND strawman there. All people who are giving their lives away in the military are doing it blindly…
“It says a lot about your character when you put others before yourself. “
-and then shoot them…yup that says a lot…
Way to miss the point. You’re right. We should let those who ruthlessly oppress others and spew their broken radical/murderous ideology just keep doing it. They’ll come around eventually and realize how horribly wrong they were… right? I wonder what we’ll do about those who die and are oppressed in the mean time.
“i think i did a lot to help the world today, actually…i didn’t punch, kick, stab, shoot, or drop a bomb on anyone…i didn’t assist in the projection of military dominance over an impoverished country…i didn’t drive in a gas powered vehicle today…i didn’t buy one thing from the united states and had a lovely locally produced meal with my friends this evening…”
I was unaware that simply existing helps the world. Good for you I guess? In the mean time, I’ll let the people actually doing the work of making it better do their thing. If you want to talk about the policy of those people, let’s talk. But doing nothing and living in your own bubble doesn’t exactly improve anyone else’s outlook.
“We need these students (SFS and others) with creative minds and problem solving expertise that can cut through the bull and help us to deal with these very real global issues.”
Maybe if they just sing kumbaya enough the world’s problems created by violence will solve themselves. You know, I bet the ruthless thugs in the world will just stop being ruthless thugs if you reason with them enough. We definitely don’t need police officers, just teach everyone how to reason with your attackers!
“They do not tell the truth about missions, careers, risks, and the fact that they are currently engaged in a completely immoral and illegal war in Afghanistan.”
Please, tell me what is immoral and illegal about the war in Afghanistan. In specific detail. You can make the argument that it is an unintelligent war to fight given the success of superpowers in that country in the past, but I really doubt that you can rationally make the argument that stopping the repression of a people by a violent ruling class is immoral. Unless of course you subscribe to moral relativism, in which case talking to you is pointless anyhow.
“Spending resources on thirteen years of schooling just to send them off to kill or be killed is insanity.”
You’re right, we should ensure that those entering the military (especially officers) don’t have an education. We certainly won’t subject them to that horrible officer’s school. And best yet, if you believe that you at least need a rudimentary military, since they won’t be educated they’ll be a caste born into soldierhood! Who do you propose to do this to? Or are you instead suggesting that we should completely disarm? Your ideas when followed to their logical conclusions are ludicrous. Good luck with your utopia I guess.
After reading the comments of ‘undercover teacher’ I now understand the dramatic increase in home schooling and private schools. Smug, narrowly educated people should not be teaching.
Time for me to start saving for private school for the grandkids.
It’s good to see students protesting. If you can’t protest when you are young, when will you protest??
Wow, ‘undercover teacher,’ you’re right!
I suggest you drop everything you are doing, go to Afghanistan as quickly as possible, and tell the Taliban of your utopian action plan. I’m sure it will be well received, and will put an end to their years spent on senseless violence against their own civilians and international communities alike.
If you’re lucky you won’t step on a landmine on the way or have anyone throw acid on you.
When you’re back in one piece, please inform us how it went. Until then, try to remember way, way back (it’s so hard for some people) to the events of 9/11 and tell me again why we’re over there. It’s not about any of those things you mentioned. It’s either fight them there or fight them here, because the Taliban hate you, no matter how many times you ride your bike to work. They are ignorant, uneducated animals who want you dead because you, my dear Canadian ‘friend,’ are an American infidel, NO MATTER WHAT.
Good old regular Afghani folk appreciate the international forces in their country, and can see the many positive changes that have taken place for themselves. Why can’t you? You can trust me when I say I know a lot about it. Do you even know anyone who’s ever been to Afghanistan?
As the old saying goes, however, if you don’t support our troops, feel free to stand in front of them. I think I know where you’re standing at the present moment, and I hope you can someday see the light: the Canadian Forces are here to protect you and not harm you, whether you deserve it or not.
PS. Your lifestyle sounds like a lot of work! Do you have any room in there between all your self-imposed rules to actually relax and have a good time once and awhile?
I have spoken to individuals in the Canadian Forces who are having a very difficult time dealing with what they have been told/led to believe about the mission and what they are actually experiencing in Afghanistan. The need to believe that we are doing good and what they are actually participating in is a huge contradiction and is in part a cause of the increase in suicide rates of returning veterans and of those suffering from PTSD. Veterans are not being properly treated and are not receiving all the benefits that they are entitled to, but I doubt military recruiters would convey this information to potential recruits. This is one reason why I support the ban on recruiting in high schools.
Also, I don’t think school is the venue to promote an organization whose purpose is to kill people. “We’re not the public service of Canada, we’re not just another department. We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.” (Chief of Defence, General Rick Hillier)
I admit I was being arrogant and cocky implying that CF members are blindly giving their lives, but I do think that there is a lot of information that they are not being told and this creates serious psychological issues for many people when what they believe starts to unravel.
With regards to the point about how the war in Afghanistan being illegal and immoral. The UN Security Council resolution passed after the attacks on Sept. 11 of 2001 in response to the terrorist attacks did not specifically mention Afghanistan, it did not authorize “any means necessary” but called for justice through legal frameworks, and according to the UN Charter the aggressive actions of the United States and its Coalition Forces against the people of Afghanistan does not meet any of the conditions outlined in its preamble that would legitimize the use of force. In fact, the war could be considered an aggressive war and a Supreme Crime according to international law. al-Qaeda is believed to be responsible for 9/11, not the repressive regime of the Taliban, nor the majority of the people in Afghanistan who we are fighting against.
It is an immoral war because we are supporting one side of a civil war that has been tearing the country apart for the last twenty years. We are not supporting stabilization or democracy in any true meaning of those words. We are propping up (by providing funds to known corrupt officials and weapons) to warlords, drug lords, local militias, and human rights abusers who are equally as vicious and brutal as any Taliban member. And for what reason? Because we are kind hearted Canadians? Or would Jean Chrétien’s trips to Turkmenistan to firm up natural gas contracts have more legitimacy as a reason for our participation? (http://turkmenistan.gov.tm/_eng/2008/02/13…)
While I also agree that singing “Kumbaya” isn’t going to help (that made me chuckle), we need to be looking at other means to solve the world’s problems. This does not mean I will never ever support a military intervention, but we as citizens (veterans and CF Members included) have a right and a responsibility to question the policies that are putting lives on the line.
I don’t believe that the majority of people in Afghanistan are evil. If you can think back a little bit farther than 9/11, it was the US that instigated a protracted war through proxy fighters (the mujahideen) with the Soviet Union during the late 1970’s that has lead to the destabilization to Afghanistan over the last thirty years. The people of Afghanistan begged for international help throughout the 1990’s and we failed them horribly. The actions that we have been engaged in since October of 2001 have only increased the desperation of the people, destabilized the region even more, and has not made me or you here in Canada any safer.
And looking at recent poll numbers from Afghanistan, it seems as though it may not be as rosy as you suggest for the average citizen. It seems as though corruption is growing and optimism is waning in Afghanistan. After billions of dollars spent and the loss of both military personnel and civilians, is this what progress looks like? http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressrele…
“The need to believe that we are doing good and what they are actually participating in is a huge contradiction and is in part a cause of the increase in suicide rates of returning veterans and of those suffering from PTSD”
It’s called “Post Traumatic Stress Disorder” and not “Post Cognative Dissonance Disorder” for a reason. Perhaps “Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome” is caused by… traumatic stress. War is not pretty, and guerilla style wars where the threat comes from the populace that you must protect is even less so. There has been PTSD since there has been war, whether the war was just or not.
“Also, I don’t think school is the venue to promote an organization whose purpose is to kill people.”
It’s a necessary side effect of the role and intention of the military. I’m truly very sorry that the world isn’t rosy (and I wish it were), but a military is needed and recruitment should occur. If they’re doing some clockwork orange type shit I’d agree with you, but they’re simply talking to students if they so choose. If you believe that they’re lying, please attempt to resolve that, not the fact that they’re recruiting in the first place. If they’re lying, I would wholly support straightening that out. Caveat: PR is not lying, being untruthful is.
“The UN Security Council resolution passed after the attacks on Sept. 11 of 2001 in response to the terrorist attacks did not specifically mention Afghanistan, it did not authorize “any means necessary” but called for justice through legal frameworks”
Really? http://www.state.gov/p/io/rls/othr/2001/48… “5. Expresses its readiness to take all necessary steps to respond to the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001, and to combat all forms of terrorism, in accordance with its responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations;” It seems it did specifically authorize “all necessary steps,” which I would paraphrase as “any means necessary”.
“We are propping up (by providing funds to known corrupt officials and weapons) to warlords, drug lords, local militias, and human rights abusers who are equally as vicious and brutal as any Taliban member.”
The inherent difference being that the Taliban is the organization that was providing safe harbor to a terrorist who killed thousands of people. I support the war on and removal of any government that provided implicit consent to such an attack. The caveat is that we must also rebuild and interfere with the natural order of things for a while when we do so. Imposing sanctions and crippling an entire country has disastrous effects, see: WWI/II.
“And for what reason? Because we are kind hearted Canadians? Or would Jean Chrétien’s trips to Turkmenistan to firm up natural gas contracts have more legitimacy as a reason for our participation?”
See above caveat. The crux of that line of reasoning would seem to depend on this being the ulterior motive behind the entire war. Simply showing that there are negotiations for resources is not evidence that there is wrongdoing. Quite frankly, I believe that the more money that gets pumped into the region for legitmate goods/resources, the better. Currently the Afghani people seem rather dependent on the opium trade. An influx of money will improve education and standards of living, which are the direct enemies of support for fundamentalism. I will agree that handled poorly, such activities can be disastrous. Show me actual evidence of wrongdoing and I’ll condemn the wrongdoing.
“While I also agree that singing “Kumbaya” isn’t going to help (that made me chuckle)”
😀
“This does not mean I will never ever support a military intervention, but we as citizens (veterans and CF Members included) have a right and a responsibility to question the policies that are putting lives on the line.”
Your previous rhetoric did not seem to be in line with the belief that you would at any point support military intervention. It had a hard-line pacifist ring to it. CF members have a responsibility to ensure that what they are doing is not a war crime. Other than that, their job is to follow orders. Autonomy is the anithesis of organization, and the military for obvious reasons must be organized. The people of the country do have a right and responsibility to question the policies, I never denied them that (and in fact supported it: “if you want to talk about the policy of those people, let’s talk”). But I’m glad to see the middle ground appearing in your argument.
Responding to your final two paragraphs re: the Afghani people:
The Afghani people have been failed, due to the war in Iraq. I will not argue there. I condemn the war on Iraq. Resources have been allocated there that should have been allocated to Afghanistan. If you want to analyze what caused (what I consider to be) the current failure in Afghanistan, it is that we (the international community) have not provided the populace enough real, tangible security after troops had been allocated to Iraq. The Taliban will kill any villagers seen taking aid from soldiers. This would be less possible with actual security being provided. The situation there can be resolved by bringing up troop levels to what they should have been in order to provide security, and building infrastructure/public works.
It’s a fact of life that the Afghani people haven’t been done well by the international community due to the Iraq war for the above reason. That is why the satisfaction polls have declined. It’s not a reason to abandon them, but instead a reason to redouble our efforts. The average villager simply wants to be able to live their own lives, preferably without being oppressed with threat of death. They crave security in the face of these troubling times. Let’s provide it.
Worth reading : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20…
Quote : ‘So why do the liberal left lie so often to themselves about wars?
I have worked in a dozen or so war zones and I am constantly struck by the total divergence between how the situations get debated in British politics and what I see with my own eyes. I am not a huge fan of George Orwell, but one thing he got right is that the liberal-left intelligentsia simply does not understand what war, with all its attendant horrors and hypocrisies, entails. They are prepared to accept even the most outrageous propaganda and exaggerations if it helps them to build emotional superstructures around their own myths.’
I used to be an army reservist in Halifax and it was a great part-time income, flexible around university classes, offered other perks, and did not force me into anything “war”-like. Sure, when you join the Regular forces, you may be sent to duty. But there are lots of risks in the world besides this. Only ignorant teenagers think that Canada goes to these countries to bomb innocent people. Speak to people who’ve been there and learn what they actually do…the opposite of that. Also, if they think no students should join, and we have another world event where Canada may require some sort of defence, who’s going to come crying for protection? Oh, I guess terrorists will sit patiently and listen to their peaceful conversations. Yes, that’ll work. LOL
Oh, Those Little Lambs -tsk, tsk….
If we promote independent thinking, how on earth are we going to program youth to sacrifice themselves: mind, body and soul to war? We need good little citizens. ‘Stay in line, don’t think outside the box, what climate crisis?…
Just look the other way, Fawcett, and other obvious NeoCons, when the body bags arrive or when you see the look of absolute anguish in the face of someone who returns with PTSD.
You should consider having some of the byproducts of war presented at your school and then have a nice safe discussion about marginalization, propaganda, what cheapens life as we know it, how did the Nazis get away with what they did, how did Nazi Youth become so popular (a handy way to preen recruits for hateful pathological acts of violence)?
Hey Luvn Canada; so what stopped the Nazis?
As a mother with children not yet in the school system, I have to concur that the military should not receive any special treatment in regards to recruitment that other employers and schools receive.
I also agree that military presence targets low-income families and to some small degree promotes violence though not nearly to a notable degree. (Television methinks promotes far more than military recruitment.)
I think, perhaps, if the military wishes to recruit, perhaps donate time to include it as part of the curriculum as part of Canadian History or Government, as it is a pertinent part of the subjects, and would be better able to single out individuals dedicated to service. I believe students would probably walk away with more of an understanding with visits to local military installations and chats with former serving officers with the recruitment pitch woven in than what I believe is the current manifestation.
RB, I will speak for myself and my post is so many pages back…..I do not think folks are so against recruitment (by choice of course ) as they are, including me, about doing it in the schools….AND as I pointed out they are leaving out the TRUTH of ATROCITY…. the toll of person and family and community of dead and returning people cannot be calculated……
We do not let these guys drink until 19, drive a car til 16 and then some…..but we can go recruit them for politics because that is exactly what war is…..they have not even begun to live but we want to recruit them for something closer to death?
I do not think anyone should be allowed to recruit anybody until 21 and over but they can show up on career day like everyone else with pamphlets….
—–I think recruiters should restrict their activities to career day…. yes i support recruitment but there is a fine line between school blindly supporting militarism and being patriotic
If you buy into what they are selling…and you sign on the………………..line, There is only one thing to do.And that is to be the best you can at what your doing.
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As a present serving military member in their 22nd year of full time reg force service, I have no issue with having military recruiters in our schools. To these “Students for Freedom and Socialism” who protest military recruiters in the schools, I can’t help but wonder if they would be ticked off at some group who formed solely to protest them, and the fact that this other group doesn’t believe that they (SFS) have the ability to decide things for themselves. As far as April Wise-Gillap’s concern of military service in Afghanistan goes, as long as she herself doesn’t join the military, then she has nothing to worry about. If most of the SFS members agree that allowing the armed forces to recruit in classrooms promotes violence and enables exploitation of young people, particularly those from low-income families, then every Canadian school from kinder garden to high school and every North American news channel is guilty of this offence every 11th of November, for do we not hold (and rightly so) our WWI and WWII veterans up on a pedestal? Just the very nature of the conflicts they were involved in was that of violence, aggression and death, yet every year for close to 80 or so years now on 11 November, we have brought their stories and memories to the fore front of our collective conscience.
As one who has experienced life and the world from other then a classroom setting, I can’t see myself protesting against something such as military recruiters in schools. I’d leave it up to those individual students to decide for them self if a career in the military is what they want to do in life. Perhaps members of this “Students for Freedom and Socialism” group should mind their own business and let others make their own decisions.
I think military recruiters should only be allowed to target people who are old enough to legally consume alcohol. In Nova Scotia that means 19 years of age. That seems to be the age when society apparently thinks people are mature enough to make decisions that could harm them in the long run.
If military recruiters only talk to people who are 19 years of age, they won’t be allowed to recruit in high schools. Problem solved.
I think the military can be a viable career option for some (not my personal choice) but then of course you do run the risk of ending up in some hot and dusty place with other people shooting at you perhaps for no good reason other than that your government thinks it would be a good idea to be represented on the world stage and “earn a seat at the table” – Mr Peter Mackay’s words I think.
This is what young people need to know, beyond the information about vocational training and money for college and a good benefit plan. When you sign up you are basically saying “I will do whatever you want me to do and go wherever you want me to go for the duration of my enlistment and that includes getting shot and killed, possibly for no good reason”.
If this country was ever truly threatened, they wouldn’t need to go out looking for recruits. Like back during the Second World War, they’d be fighting them off with sticks. Even back then, when the nation faced an obvious threat, they turned lots of potential recruits away for various medical, mental and physical failings. So I don’t worry about this nation’s ability to mount a defensive effort if threatened.
Paradoxically, the biggest threat to our sovereignty comes from south of the border. When the day comes that the Americans don’t want to have to ‘ask’ or ‘pay’ for oil or water or farmland, they will just drive up and take it. When that day comes, our government will probably just hand it over and announce to us what a great thing it was that we didn’t get nuked for it all.
It perplexes me that people (notably Ms. Fawcett) say that they’re open to all perspectives but shut down peaceful, critical students looking to offer a reasonable alternative. What’s wrong with showing other people the other side of a story? Joining the military is not a decision to be made lightly, and it’s not “just another job.” And I agree that putting more money into education is desperately needed so recruitment isn’t the only option for some young people.
It’s not like they force you to join. They’re offering a decent job to people in a shitty backwards province that isn’t exactly squeezing jobs out of its collective vagina.
Hey, Spoiled Brats for Freedom & Socialism. Name me one “Socialist” country that doesn’t have compulsory military service.
I was recruited from high school, having never considered the military given none of my family had served, during the last great recruiting blitz in the 80s (No life like it?)
I served 23 years and retired in ’09 with an immediate pension, saw A Lot of the world and own my own home, mortgage free.
Am I glad the recruiters came to my school? You better believe it.
I wasn’t recruited from high school, worked part time and funded my own university education debt free.
I travelled the world, visited 25 countries and worked in over 14 of them. I own my own house, have a pension through my employer and have a great job and I am in my early 30’s. I was able to accomplish this without putting my life on the line or learning how to shoot a gun. You don’t need the military to be successful in life.
I am a high school teacher. One thing I often hear from students is, “I only need five credits. I’m joining the military.” Five credits seems like a pretty low standard. Is this accurate?
Thats bullshit, The Military does not force anyone to join. They are advertising (recruiting) them-selves like any other business. Except the fact that its “for your country”. Plus, “how can they compare them-selves like Dal or Saint Mary’s”????. People make careers from the military. They also “can” make or “make more” then someone going to University. I dont know why people these days are make a huge assumption that university is the only way to go. I think its stupid that this “group” was made just to remove the Canadian Armed forces out of schools.
Well, DSH, I am in my early 30’s as well. I too have a house, I pay a mortgage so I don’t quit own it. Kuddos to you for owning a house and not paying a mortgage, did your job pay for your home? The military is paying me for my mortgage by the way, also, when I retire in the next 4 and half years, my retirement pay will cover my mortgage and then some. Oh yeah, my wife gets benefits too. Having been in the Navy for nearly 16 years, myself along with anyone that serves is quit aware that people don’t NEED the military to be successful. It is all about giving people in our country a choice. To make that choice, people need information which is done through advertising, including recruiters being available to talk with answer peoples’ questions. Have you seen how we helped with Haiti? As far as learning to shoot a gun or putting your life on the line, well I have plenty of friends that have died, outside the military, and I have never been qualified or needed to qualify to shoot pistol or rifle. I am not going to knock you for your opinion, but it is ignorant to say the military says you need them to be successful in life, they only advertise that it is a good option and you should be informed in a nutshell. I know what you meant by saying you own your home by the way, just making my point on how I have benefited, kind of how you said how you accomplished things. Keeping an open mind is key. I am serving my country by choice because recruiting gives us a choice, and takes away the need to draft. I could have gone to college on scholarships, but wanted to serve. More power to people and personal choice and freedom.
mcgayle, Ubarn farmer bob – If you can drive a large quarter ton machine that can kill people instantly at 16 and if you can get your PAL for firearms at 16, you’re grown up enough to join the military. PS, you need your parents permission under 18.
Why don’t you people actually learn something about the military before shoving a thumb up your ass and sprouting out your mouth whatever you find on said thumb.
This generation had nothing to be thankful or grateful for. All these hipster fucks do is whine and complain about anything they can find. Recruiters came to my school all the time. Noone joined if they didnt want to, noone was forced, I even know a few people who’ve served in afganistan, my father being one of them and none of them came back as baby killers or plauged with PTSD. If anything they were proud they had helped people with so little when we have so much.
Why dont you protest Halifax’s inaction on the homeless? Oh right, because we can see them. Hipsters dont want to support it unless its half way around the world and they’re completely ignorant of any facts. Like this stupid girl on this article, being told and given links at least 10 times stating that afganistan is indeed a UN sanctioned mission, only for her to keep sprouting out the same hipster claims that it isnt, ignoring the links that would prove her wrong
I am a proud militray member, and also one who is quite distresed to hear that recruiting is being protested in high schools across Halifax. I was not recruited in high school, (I attended high school in halifax) but I wish like hell I was. I truly believe the militray isn’t for everyone (especially and obviously for spoiled children who have no direction in life), but we deserve to promote ourselves as much as the next corporate business, college, or university. If a 16 yr old is old enough to operate a vehicle – can’t we agree that an 18 yr old is old enough to make his or her own decisions and deal with the consequences of them? Protesting just sounds like an outlet for these kids. Also, if we dont recruit, how do these kids suppose the economy in Halifax will fare in the future? No new recruits means a large decrease in potential home owners, shoppers, and generally good citizens for the future. We should be proud to be a city built on its Navy, tradition, and its ability to support Canada’s military. In my blunt opinion, the militray is the only way to go. The upcoming generation has no direction, no structure, and a stubbron, arrogant, and ignorant outlook. Maybe serving in the forces would do them some good, while also putting them through secondary school, providing structure, a steady pay check, a chance to travel and most importantly, a sense of community, pride and dignity.
Manny: Your question is a valid one, and yes, there are certain trades in the militray that require only a base amount of credits. however, there are even more trades that require extra credits such as chemistry, physics, or advanced math to name a few. Joining the military isnt the easy way out, and maybe you could enlighten your students who think it is. Tell them we cant wait to see them, and set them straight!
I loved this article, I am a high school student (10th grade). And I was at lunch where some people from the military had set up there booth and were handing out flyers to join, these people looked very unhappy, they looked sick and were not smiling at anyone, my friend was going to go up there but turned away because they looked so awful and mean. I think this is wrong and don’t believe that kids should have this option placed right in front of them. I know all there is to know about the military and it is SICK!!!!!!! We are supporting an country that goes and kills innocent people, murdering do you hear me MURDER! we should be the ones in trouble but no, we go over to a perfect little country and what do we do??? Destroy it! These people who are fighting against us right now are just trying to get us out, because they don’t want us in there, they want there old country back before we came and started killing people because we want to control there recourses, there economy, we want to control the world! SICK SICK SICK! I can’t wait until I am 18 so I can get out of this horrible, sick, disgusting, rotten, murdering, corrupt, hogging country!
Ironic that a group with the word “Socialism” in its name is claiming to want “neutral” schools, free of “propaganda”.
I’m fairly far on the left, but I have to call BULLSHIT on this group’s claim of neutrality and a propaganda-free zone.
I guess it’s only propaganda when the OTHER SIDE does it, right?
The only kind of military I support is one operating within our borders. Is some one coming ashore to attack our country? Hand me a vest and a rifle and I’ll get down to business.
Otherwise, fuck off.
And stop spending billions on wars in places we don’t understand victimizing locals all in the hunt for “terrorists” which really means, on the hunt for opium and all those that profit from it.
The 21st century drug wars.
Thanks, but I’d take socialists over war mongering socialists any day.
Those fuckers up in Ottawa already steal enough of our tax dollars – do we really need to be “rebuilding” countries half way around the world?
Time for a government with an insular defense mentality.
I would like to start with a little poke at the people who believe that the students are socially aware. They are force fed what they should be aware of by teachers with their own political beliefs etc, just as i was when i was in highschool by teachers who wanted more money to do less, resulting in a teacher strike. i received a failing grade on my grade 12 history Independent research project because my project “internal/urban terrorism” apparently had no basis in the society of today, that was 2 years before 9/11. we are aware simply by what we are force fed…media, is inherently corrupt, and in many cases criminal in my opinion for publishing potentially damaging information about troops etc.
Second, for all you who seem to think that quoting authors and things like that as a means of support for your argument….you are regurgitating someone elses opinion as if it was your own. it doesnt make YOU smart, and you probably got the intention/message interpreted wrong to begin with.
I wish, I really do, that I had been given the OPTION to speak to a recruiter in highschool. Military recruitment in Canada is done in a vastly different way than military recruitment in other countries. What, tell me is any difference between a viable carrer option( 100+ if i believe) in the military and what a major corporation like Bell or Aliant does in order to recruit their next generation of employees.
The argument of PTSD is totally ridiculous in the fact that everyone has the potential to suffer from it. Everything from spilling a cup of coffee on your lap to getting smacked as a kid can be a traumatically stressful event, and can trigger PTSD episodes well into adulthood, this i know because my mother nearly killed me while being a battered wife herself. if that argument is the sole reason why someone shouldnt join the military, then noone should be a firefighter, or a police officer, or a linesman or any other job where you arent sitting all day in a padded room and comforted. Dont get me wrong, im not debating whether PTSD is valid or not, im saying it isnt the argument as to WHY military recruiting shouldnt be done, and that if it IS the argument, its a poor one when faced with realities of stressful jobs.
Last, because of the first statement that i made that our enlightened students should be free to voice their opinions, i say yes, totally, but not because of what they have read or watched on tv. they should be basing their opinions on their own experience. not from others. if they want to be enlightened, listing obscure quotes from a book are not the way. listening to a teacher wax poetic on the evils that is any government spending other than their wallet and pension plan, is not the way. Standing up and trying as much as they can and basing it off of their own experiences is the only way to be truly enlightened.