Four Dalhousie faculty members have come forward to file a formal complaint against the members of the “Class of DDS 2015” Facebook group. An email released just before noon from DalhousieStatement@gmail.com states the complaint has been made under the university’s code of student conduct, and not their sexual harassment policy.
The complaint asks that confidentiality be protected for any specific individuals named or depicted on the misogynistic Facebook page that has dominated local media coverage for the last week. It also states emphatically that none of those individuals should be compelled or pressured to appear as witnesses.
Last week, Dalhousie University moved swiftly against the now infamous Facebook group of fourth-year dentistry students who had been posting sexist, sometimes violent comments about female classmates. Dal president Richard Florizone promised an informal restorative justice process to clean up the mess instead of formally investigating any breaches of conduct. In the absence of clear information, the public and many in the Dal community have been left to speculate about what exactly has been happening inside the dentistry school—until now.
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Two weeks ago, the Class of DDS 2015 Gentlemen were angry. Someone had been leaking their comments to the girls, and now Dalhousie’s administration was involved.
“We should hang the leak from his balls,” one man wrote. “If he has balls.”
They made a poll to weigh their options. “Do nothing” beat out “Hold off unless the shit hits the fan” and “Issue statement of some sort.” Their fun had been ruined.
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“I also want to know I can say whoever I want to HATEFUCK and know some guy isn’t going to go running and tell the girls.”
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[NOTE: All of these redacted Facebook posts are coloured so readers can keep track of who’s commenting. Any female classmate names are coloured grey, while Dalhousie faculty names are brown.]
The Class of DDS2015 Gentlemen group dates back to 2011, the fall of their first year. Its membership has fluctuated over the years. In September of 2013, one member proposed joining forces with male students from the year above them.
“For now it will be good for the lolz,” he wrote, “and in the future it may be good for us bros to stick together.”
• • •
However it began, a consistent presence of misogynistic, often violent imagery has defined the group’s comments. Some of them have been mentioned online already. There are references to drugging women. Jokes about getting a woman unconscious before sex. How the men’s penises were tools “used to wean and convert lesbians and virgins.” There’s plenty more that hasn’t been reported. Their classmates were mentioned and pictured often. Back in April, one group member jokingly demanded a “written fuckign [sic] apology for this sexiest [sic] email” about a female-only bursary program. A lengthy post in March, 2013 defines the group’s philosophy. The post criticizes women in their program who “cry” and those who the author claims flirt with instructors (“Damn honey traps!”).
“The gentlemen’s club is not necessarily for men, but it’s just for badasses,” the group member wrote. “If that just so happens to be men, then so be it.”
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Perhaps most troubling, three male Dalhousie dentistry faculty and staff members are praised by the group for their “gentlemanly” behaviour. One current instructor is lauded for being “under more heat for sexual harassment than anyone since” a previous faculty member. “What a boss.”
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Dalhousie director of communication Brian Leadbetter says that over the past nine months he’s held his job he isn’t aware of any sexual harassment complaints or investigations in the dentistry faculty. He also said Dalhousie wasn’t aware of the Facebook group’s comments about faculty members.
“I’m not aware of any specifics regarding an investigation,” he says. “I do know that it did come to our attention, I believe it was the end of last week, with respect to the video that was shared in the class.”
That’s the CBC story about a dentistry professor who showed a video of bikini-clad women to his class this past summer as a way to “wake up” the male students. The CBC quotes a female student who says the professor later apologized over email.
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Early in December, one member of the “gentlemen” Facebook group created polls so the group could vote which of their classmates they most wanted to “hate fuck,” and which were best for “sport fucking.” They were posted on Saturday, December 6—the 25th anniversary of the Montreal Massacre where 14 female École Polytechnique students were murdered.
According to Dalhousie, they first became aware of the problem on Monday, December 8. Faculty were told a formal code of conduct complaint had been lodged. A week later, university president Richard Florizone told the media Dalhousie hadn’t received any formal complaints yet.
By December 12, the shit hits the fan. The men still a part of the group knew they had been found out. In private messages, some expressed remorse and suggested signing a letter of apology.
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“There are girls in our class that are going to seriously have their feelings hurt if this all goes down,” one wrote. “I fear the weight of all of the Dental School’s past transgressions may lay upon the heads of this group.”
Others showed less contrition.
“Boys what are they going to do? honestly. Kick every guy out of 4th year? Tell us you guys are mean for saying those things? I think the bigger issue is who the fuck is showing the girls.”
Once it became clear the faculty knew and matters were escalating, the group panicked.
“Sending out an apology is a great idea right now,” one wrote. “This shit is apparently very serious and other faculty members know. Can’t chat now. Just a heads up. Sounds very serious. Especially given the climate across the country given this sort of stuff.”
“Fuck an apology,” one man replied. “All of this is fuckin ridiculous.”
What happened next, you’ve probably heard. The men shut down the group, and shortly thereafter some of their comments are published by the CBC. The three remaining exams for the entire class are cancelled until January. On Tuesday of last week, the administration calls an emergency meeting of the dental school’s graduating class. Students are invited to attend, voluntarily and confidentially, to address matters in the media.
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Dalhousie calls a press conference late on Wednesday, where Richard Florizone and restorative justice expert/school of law professor Jennifer Llewellyn address the media and answer a few questions. At one point, Florizone chokes up at the mic. The president states some of the women named in the Facebook posts had met with Dalhousie prior to adopting this restorative justice approach. But not all of them.
Janet Bryson, spokesperson for Dalhousie, says she has “no idea” whether the university informed all the women mentioned in the Facebook group what was said about them. The answer is, they didn’t. The Coast has learned at least one woman attended the emergency meeting last Tuesday who had no knowledge at the time she had been talked about in the Facebook group.
Restorative justice isn’t inherently flawed, and Dalhousie seems committed to addressing larger, systemic issues. But the quick effort to enact their informal restorative process raises serious questions about its chances for success. If restorative justice proceeds, there could be other women involved who have no idea the men sitting across the table wrote hateful comments specifically about them. The community and public won’t know if it succeeds, as the process will remain entirely confidential unless a consensus is reached by all participants—men included.
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The parameters and potential outcomes of the restorative justice approach are all being vaguely defined by Dalhousie. Part of that, the university claims, is to protect the privacy of everyone involved. It’s been reported that disciplinary outcomes could still be on the table, as if the restorative justice process had the authority to act on a verdict. But that’s not exactly true. If the men ever do face suspension or expulsion it will still need to happen formally, through an investigation and a judgment by Dal’s senate disciplinary committee. Under the informal restorative justice approach there is no authority to discipline anyone. Keep in mind, under the university’s own code of student conduct no formal complaint needs to be filed by a student (as has been proven today) for Dalhousie to investigate a breach of ethics.
“That’s rare,” says Janet Bryson. “They’re usually complainant-driven processes.”
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Beyond Dalhousie, there’s been concern in the public that these men will be treating patients at the dentistry school’s University Avenue clinic. Dentistry students aren’t governed by Nova Scotia’s dental board—Dal takes on that responsibility. Breaches of the university’s sexual harassment policy, code of student conduct and particularly their faculty of dentistry student code of professional conduct are for Dalhousie to investigate. That they haven’t yet is one reason why 145 past and present Dalhousie faculty members and alumni have signed a petition calling for an independent committee of inquiry in order to “earn back the public trust.”
Janet Bryson says she has “no idea” whether the men will be back treating patients next month, but it seems likely. Florizone has already told the media he does not feel the men are a threat to the public. According to the dental school’s clinic policy and procedures manual, access to the clinic can be suspended for violations as minor as chewing gum. “It is a privilege not a right for students to treat patients in this Clinic.” [Dalhousie’s emphasis].
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After Florizone’s press conference last week, CBC reported that one of the women mentioned in the sexist posts objects to the informal resolution. Another woman contacted The Coast before this article was published. She is one of the women featured in derogatory posts on the group Facebook page. She wanted to emphasize that Dalhousie did not seek or receive her consent before electing to an informal restorative justice process, and she’s not comfortable proceeding with that process as it has been explained. As of right now, she’s not coming forward publicly or with a formal complaint because she’s concerned it will affect her academic standing and career.
Including her, we know of at least four women in Dalhousie’s graduating dentistry class who object to restorative justice. Yet again and again, the university has claimed its response has been focused on those most directly harmed.
“I think when people look at this sort of process, they’ll wonder how will that be,” says Janet Bryson, “but there could be things that flow out of the process that very much would show that.
“That’s why the university respected the wishes of these women in following this process.”
There are 19 men and 19 women in the core fourth-year dentistry class at Dal. Thirteen of those men were members of the Facebook group up until it was shut down last week. Although there are clear references to others jumping ship or being kicked off earlier. At least seven of their female classmates were the subject of derogatory remarks. Nine other students—seven men and two women—who are part of the foreign-trained QP class seemingly weren’t involved at all.
We plan to protect the identity of the women who have contacted us as long as they wish. The university is refusing to release the names of the men involved in the Facebook group, as is the media for the time being. It’s likely there are men in Dalhousie’s fourth year dentistry program who had no part in the hateful Facebook group. Nevertheless, they’re now tarnished with the actions of their classmates. Names shouldn’t have to be made public for justice to be restored. Ideally, it’s the university who holds those responsible accountable.
Late Friday, Richard Florizone sent a mass email to the Dalhousie community about this “difficult, troubling week.” He expressed his thanks to those who have written and called with their thoughts. Once again, he stressed how disappointed and disgusted everyone at Dalhousie is with these “entirely unacceptable Facebook comments.”
“This is a watershed moment for Dalhousie, and a sign of how far we still have to go,” the president wrote. “As difficult as this week has been for everyone, the challenge it presents is to build a stronger, more inclusive, more respectful Dalhousie. I believe, together, we can meet that challenge.”
Classes at Dalhousie dentistry start back up on Monday, January 5.
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The six Facebook posts that Dal suspended 13 students for
Richard Florizone leaving Dalhousie for quantum super-position
At least two Dalhousie “gentlemen” remain unsuspended
Dal hires outside PR firm for dentistry scandal help
This article appears in Dec 18-24, 2014.
Drawing a comparison between this and the Polytechnique massacre is disgusting. It cheapens the deaths of those murdered by comparing that event to humour done in poor taste. The Coast just victimized the families of the survivors again with this trash.
Considering that most people post on Facebook daily, or more even more often, chances are you will be posting something that coincides with some anniversary. I think we should all stop frothing at the mouth for 2 seconds and put things into perspective.
You would think there would be a bit more thoughtful reasoning and dialogue in a city with so many universities.
They weren’t comparing it to the massacre, just suggesting the fact that this horrendous, violent language was used against women and posted on the same day as the anniversary of when a man used violence against women that reflected the tone of the dentistry student’s language. Calm down.
You might need to get your eyes checked buddy. They pointed out the surveys on who they wanted to hate fuck were posted on the anniversary of the Polytechnic anniversary. The suggestion is that this is a poor choice of day to disrespect fellow female students, not that their behavior is anywhere near being on par with murder. It’s much easier to justify your opinions when you build a straw man argument out of everything you read, eh?
At no time… ever… in this reality, or in an alternate one… are dentists considered to be badasses.
I don’t understand why these people haven’t been kicked out of their program yet. As a member of the public, I certainly don’t feel comfortable knowing that men as unstable as this are going to be practising as dentists. It is quite obvious that there will be a risk to the public should they continue with their chosen field. My tax dollars should not be going to fund an education for such abhorrent , and possibly criminal characters
Thank you, Jacob Boon, for being so sensitive and impartial and unbiased…not. If you’re trying to attract a paramour or get a girlfriend by being so sweet and understanding, you’re off to a good start. But you suck at journalism. OK, I shouldn’t be that flat out – you’ve had some good articles…but you got too emotionally involved with this story.
This event has been blown out of all proportion. There are very few men in Canada and the US who as teenagers didn’t progress through exactly this kind of locker-room or “outside the classroom” thinking about girls in their class, and if you went straight to university or vocational school, that kind of thinking continued. Most men even grow out of it once the enter the workforce. As in, they don’t act on it. They certainly still think it – what otherwise explains the popularity of most movies and TV shows that get made?
I get that Dal faculty and administration are now frantically scrambling. Most of them, no doubt, are now prostrating themselves, fervently disavowing the fact that they have testicles and once had a sex drive, are themselves apologizing to every woman – mother, grandmother, wife, gf, sister, aunt, co-worker – that they can find, they are looking through their email inbox and Word documents on their computer to make sure that shit *they* said 20 years ago is erased from the public record, and many of them are fervently hoping that no ex-girlfriend or ex-wife or female student comes forward to call *them* out.
I made that last particular comment on purpose. There are two sides to every story. “Men as predators” and “women as prey” makes for good news and sensational novels. But it’s frequently a copout argument. It doesn’t explain why a large percentage of women (or girls) in junior high, high school, university and the workforce dress up very sexy, show cleavage, spend hours on cosmetics…and then they are mystified why they get hit on. I’m personally aware of at least a dozen teenage girls that got pregnant by a high school teacher or a university professor – in most of those cases the female was fully aware that there was a wife or girlfriend, and they didn’t give a shit. So please don’t tell me that the male gender is all to blame.
I am so disgusted with Dalhousie’s attitude and as a woman who was sexually assaulted by my dentist in his office on Coburg Rd by a dentist who graduated from Dalhousie many, many years ago I would suggest this really is “an old boys’ school”! Perhaps that’s is where he learned this unacceptable behaviour. Sexual assault is a crime! The dentist responsible for my attack was the only dentist i his office, in a home and he scheduled my next appointment for the lunch hour and ensured his nurse/receptionist went out for an extended lunch. I didn’t think twice about that as I was a young 18 year old girl. Boy, was i naive! Yes, I was given a drug that made me groggy but I was well aware of what was happening. I did not go back to that dentist but went to “Dalhousie Dental School” where there were lots of people. No, I did not report it. I’d already had lots of experiences to learn that would be an exercise in futility back in the 70’s! Expel these students, and expose them. They should be on a sexual abuse registry and be made to submit DNA samples as well as be charged! I am ashamed to say that I once worked for the Dalhousie administration where my boss told me I must be mistaken when I asked that a certain staff member not be allowed in my office again as he too had sexually assaulted me in the grand A & A Building where I worked? I hated having my own office, felt like a prisoner and was so glad to quit and move out of province after 3 years.
How many commenters are members of the “Gentlemen’s Club”? Anywho.. if you don’t get why the comparison was made between the Polytechnique massacre and the attitude of these “gentlemen”; you’re part of the problem.
Why is Dalhousie protecting these male students!!!!!!! I wonder if the girls weren’t pressured to agree to the restorative justice, or were parents pressuring the University to protect their little angels. This attitude towards women didn’t start in university, it started many years ago and these so called males were allowed to get away with it…they should be expelled.
I’ve always wondered if these future dentists would ever say the trash that they had posted on FB… to their mothers, their sisters, their daughters… If they can be bold enough to trash talk on FB posts, then they should have the cojones to say those horrible things to a woman’s face. Like I thought… No cojones to speak of.
Realist in Dartmouth… I get it. Men talk shit about women, have rape fantasies, and joke about women being good for only a handful of things that are subservient to men. I understand you are defending that men will always degrade women to some degree, whether for entertainment or to discuss real fantasies they may or may not act upon for various reasons. It is precisely for this reason that the word “culture” is used to refer to issues of violence against women. The word recognizes that these beliefs are deeply entrenched in our society, reinforced, as you mention, by pop culture such as magazines, tv, and movies which affirm and inspire these views toward women, and which some men DO act upon. 2014 has been an epic year for showing us all just how prevalent violence toward women is, and it’s not over yet.
Unfortunately, what many people fail to recognize is that the same messages that condition men to have these views and beliefs about women are the same ones that are conditioning women to have them about themselves, most notably young women. Both men and women are deeply affected by the messages of sexism and gender roles that surround us, and they set up a dynamic between the sexes that continually reinforces these beliefs. This is not about man-hating or man-blaming. This is about people, and in particular women (since, at present, sexual violence is most broadly and frequently directed at women) not being subject to degrading and demeaning comments and threats, whether from men OR women. This is a broad, societal issue. And a HUGE one.
It saddens and scares me to have learned from your post that this is such a comfortable subject for men. That men enjoy joking with each other about degrading and raping their female peers. That men believe it’s natural for men to have sexually violent thoughts about women. That it is completely acceptable amoung many men to have and share these thoughts with each other. I was already completely bummed that young women are believing and reinforcing the view that they are hyper-sexualized beings, here to serve the sexual whims of men, their currency being their bodies and looks.
With the flurry of news stories on violence directed at women in the last 12 months alone (ie. Aboriginal women, Bill Cosby, Jian Ghomeshi, #beenrapedneverreported, Boko Haram kidnappings, and just today the rape and murder of a 6-year-old girl!! WTF?? …and on and on) can we help but want to change the culture of degrading attitudes toward women? Whether they be predicated by men or women, they are degrading and costly to our culture and to the health of our society.
This is not a disproportionate response to the issue being addressed. I would argue it’s an understated one.
One thing I keep thinking about is – in their student policies/handbook there *must* be something around zero tolerance harassment of any kind. The actions that Dal has made makes me think, when you get right down to it and have to solve a ‘zero tolerance’ issues it becomes a ‘let’s try and work it out so you can keep your career and we can keep collecting you money’ kinda thing.
Of course these guys are going to give “expressions of remorse” or write a letter of “remorse”..they’re scrambling to cover their asses…even the posts they’ve shown in this article points towards this…as these ‘men’ started realizing their posts etc in the group were becoming public, most of them were blatantly ‘bad ass’ to put it in their own words, continuing in line with the rampant mysogyny which their group was all about…the ones who did seemed a little more reserved, don’t appear remorseful or regretful at all…they see the monsoon of trouble heading their way and hope to avoid it…EXPEL THEM…if we do not respond to mysogyny with direct action and serious consequence, we allow it and inevitably play a part in the continued cycle of this kind of attitude and behaviour.
I never usually comment on things like this, but this time I felt compelled. I think the men who contributed to this group were very irresponsible. The internet is not private. By posting something, you assume full responsibility. You can’t take that away. Eventually, even on a closed group, it will leak. This is a tricky issue because a great deal of people will say that they “didn’t actually do anything” so they must not pose a real threat to women. If social media didn’t exist and the group of men had these conversations in person in a private home, perhaps there would be no consequence. Social media gives people false privacy, and cases like this open our eyes to the things people say behind closed doors where they see no harm since none of these women were within earshot. Regardless of what these men say in private, I would be hard pressed to get in a dentist chair if I knew the person treating me even thought of violent, hateful things about me or women in a broader sense. So many things become excusable to so many in the name of humor. I don’t entirely know where I stand in this. That people find talking about assaulting and targeting women entertaining is an issue, because it reveals attitudes that lead to a great deal of harm. I don’t think it’s okay to joke around about stuff like that, and if I had a son, I wouldn’t tolerate it in any capacity. Whatever comes of this, I hope that it results in a greater awareness of the damages such humor can have, and the implications of making posts on social media. I don’t necessarily think they should be expelled, not to undermine the issue, but because I think the punishment should match the crime.
Ok Dal admin, we get it, you are long steeped in the “Old Boys Club” tradition….so, let’s skip it and see what the RCMP think of all this. I am hoping that the victims get the support and healing they deserve.
First of all, I DO NOT in any way condone what these “gentlemen” have been doing. I find it immature, disgusting, and disrespectful, especially of course to the female students. I am a 36 yr. old man however. These guys are in their early 20’s. Still kids in a lot of ways. I guess my question is “Is it against the law to act like a bunch of immature jerks?” I have been following this story and haven’t seen where any of these “gentlemen” have actually acted on any of these disturbing FB posts, just talked and joked about disturbing things amongst themselves. I guess I wonder how far down the rabbit-hole of censorship do we go? After all, these comments were never intended to be read by anyone outside the group, and from what I can tell, were intended as humour. I’m sure these guys aren’t the only ones on campus who share off-color and sexist jokes, male and female. FB and the rest of society is full of these things to one degree or another. It’s VERY upsetting, true. Remember what it was like to be 21 or 22!? Did you always think through the consequences of your actions!? I can’t imagine being that age and having everything recorded and put online the way it is nowadays! On the one hand, our society is hyper-sexualized. Today’s youth are inundated with increasingly explicit and vulgar sexual content and images, including humor. at the same time, we as a society are becoming very sensitive to what we perceive as possible signs of sexual predatory behavior, and it’s very hard to know in this case where to draw that line. I do not believe that these “gentlemen” students are sexual predators. I think they were making inappropriate jokes that they thought would stay between them. I think we need to let these “gentlemen” know that what they were doing is wrong and unacceptable, make them stop, have them apologize to anyone they offended, give them some sort of serious and appropriate punishment by the school, and then let them go on with their careers and achieve their dreams. I don’t believe these are bad people. I believe they are people who let something that started out as innocent humour get way out of hand. In one of their posts that I read it showed that in addition to the inappropriate comments made, there was a fierce pride in academic excellence and achievement reflected. It’s quite possible that these guys might be some of Canada’s most promising dentistry students! They don’t sound like losers to me, they sound like guys who let off-color and sexist humour go way too far. It can happen. This “lord of the flies” like behavior is common among men of that age. It’s part of a “mob mentality”. Each group member pushes things a little further, and the next member feels like he has to push it further to gain acceptance, and before long it’s out of control. It’s very similar to hazing. It doesn’t mean that these are bad people. This incident is bad, but not worth throwing away these guys’ careers over. If these guys had ACTED on some of their comments, VERY different story! Thankfully, it looks like this was caught in time and stopped before anyone was seriously hurt! Hopefully other students will learn a lesson from this.
This type of behaviour IS illegal in the UK. And so it should be in Canada… Or are we becoming more like the Americans with little value for a safe, diverse and fair society?
Well. As a WOMAN (oh god no) about to give birth to a baby GIRL (why jesus why), I guess I already know who her dentist WON’T be. http://youtu.be/Zai1K_knNnQ
Does Dalhousie condone harassment of other students in their student handbook? Are there no professional or ethical standards in dentistry that would condemn jokes about “hatef*cking” other colleagues? Seriously: expel these ungentlemanly students and regain public trust, not only for your institution and your faculty but for dentistry as well. Or publish their names so we all know who to avoid.
Or — we can just avoid Dal with our alumn contributions.
Dalhousie has cancelled all dental procedures until January. So now innocent people who need medical attention and who potentially are in pain, have to suffer. What if this happened at the QE2 would we shut down the hospital? Cancel surgeries? Close the ER?
I’m still blown away that there is anyone who would put the words “hate” and “f**k” together. I know campuses are full of rapists, but I did not realise people actually celebrated being rapists. Like, they’re proud of it and they see the problem as being with other people. Sick, sick, stuff. I’m also just bewildered that people with this lack of maturity could get into dentistry let alone graduate from high school.
The Coast and the SJW’s are salivating over this
Do these guys and does Dalhousie realize that by participating in these actions or by refusing to act seriously against these actions they are in a way condoning rape culture. It is time in Nova Scotia that we wake up and realize that we live in a very racist sexist culture and it all needs to stop. The only way it is going to stop is if people start standing up and making direct comments to the perpetrators about how wrong they are for saying such things. I use the words what a terrible thing to say and do not let it go. By letting it go we are condoning the hate speak so all who stay silent are guilty of condoning it.
Wake up Nova Scotia this is a serious time last year with St Mary’s and now this year at dal it all need to stop and the punishment does need to fit the crime and the crime is condoning and engaging in rape culture and sexualized violence. If these boys do not at the very least loose this year and have to apply to do the year again in competition with everyone else then the punishment did not fit the crime and if they get expelled and are not able to practice dentistry then so be it there is the expectable range. Personally I would like to get them into a sweatlodge and burn their asses make them cry like babies and send them out with their badly bruised egos.
I feel that these young men should have to re-do their year, and have mandatory counselling regarding sexual assault as well as once they have graduated, have to completed two years of community service with the homeless on a weekly basis…
I am appalled at the people posting here that it was just immaturity….these so call males are going to be serving the public…..the female public I might add…I have no tolerance for this sick talk….these guys are intelligent academically but that’s where it ends…they are really stupid to think they could get away with this trash talk…..it blows me away that they were really that stupid ……with all the awareness on violence against women especially in the halifax area…..ask the parson,s girls parents how it was just boys being boys …..their daughter didn’t think so…..now they have to suffer daily because of so call boys will be boys….I hope they are expelled….because once they have the power of being a dentist they surely will think they are entitled to do as they choose….
“Or are we becoming more like the Americans with little value for a safe, diverse and fair society?”
A society can have safety. It can have fairness. It can have diversity. But you are going to have to pick two.
As far as the U.K. is concerned, do you mean the U.K. of Anjem Choudhary and the EDL. Of sharia patrolled zones where uncovered women, gays and dog walkers enter at their own risk. Of pedophile grooming gangs allowed to function because civic authorities were more afraid of being labelled racist than concerned with protecting children. Where parties like U.K.I.P. and the B.N.P.have a solid electoral base. Where serving soldiers are butchered in the street. Where self-styled “anti-fascist” groups use tactics and rhetoric surprisingly similar to that which they claim to oppose.
I’m in no way sympathetic to the 12 over-age, over-educated children that provoked all this. But, some of the comments here remind me of the discourse in our last 13 years of the War on Terror. I’m not suggesting that some kind of proportionate response is required, but never forget proportionate is the operative word. And if you are prepared to limit someone’s right to be a moron, for the sake of public safety – try not to look surprised the day that you are asked to make a similar concession.
Mens Rugby: Suspended. Womens Hockey: Suspended.
Rapists: Identities protected, might be asked to apologize. Clinic closed to ensure that everyone else blames the victims for bringing it up.
Way to go Dalhousie. Not only are these grown men of at least 8 years university training unfit for the institution, so too are the administrators.
I’m wondering: Since no affected woman has yet come forward saying she supported Florizones decision to go to Restorative Justice, and several have come forward saying they don’t, just who did Florizone talk to?
Dalhousie is a joke. And I am an alumnus. Any legal types out there think I would have a shot at getting my tuition back? I am ashamed to claim Dal as my school.
Given that these ‘Badass Gentlemen’ are ALL at least 25 years of age, at what point do we stop chalking things up to ‘teenage immaturity’?
There are those who have said they didn’t rape anyone. And they know that, how? If two men stand before you, one claims he wants to drug and rape your daughter, is that the one you want showing up for christmas dinner? Or injecting your daughter with a numbing sedative? Or inserting himself into her mouth?
Take them at their word and let them try to explain later. Do not dismiss their words. Rapists rape, and I’m sure some of them talk about it.
Enough is enough. Anyone who engaged in such disgusting and hateful conversation should be expelled and NOT allowed to practice dentistry. If they do I believe there should be a public list of these possible offenders to use gas or whatever they would use on a pt to hate fuck her while in the chair of these sick wackos
No joke boys it’s just plain WRONG
I don’t see where people are trying to find the grey area here, there is a code of conduct signed by every student when they decide to attend Dalhousie, the NSDA (Nova Scotia Dental Association) have clear rules and expectations of anyone who wishes to practice dentistry, these idiots have clearly broken these rules and should now pay for their actions.
We should not be going out of our ways to try and find a grey area for them to hide in, Dalhousie should’ve handled this according to their own rules and booted the members of the group before the whole university was drawn into the conversation under #dalhateswomen, but they didn’t and now they are getting what they deserve on that front. The result of this is that now ANYONE who graduates this year will live under this shadow, the men of this year’s class who didn’t participate will be painted with the same brush.
These men, not boys, are complete assholes and Dalhousie is failing the community and it’s students, who all pay exorbitant tuition by not releasing their names and basically trying to shelter the bros from the mess they created for themselves. Fuck that and fuck them.
You see more sexist jokes than this in any random episode of “How I Met your Mother,” maybe the social justice warriors should picket Neil Patrick Harris.
This has everything to do with Polytechnique. These men could not handle the success of the women in the program so had to degrade them the best they know how. The root of this issue is not being addressed. Its men uncomfortable with and threatened by successful women. They just assaulted with words as opposed to a gun.
Quote: “Mens Rugby: Suspended. Womens Hockey: Suspended. Rapists: Identities protected, might be asked to apologize.”
So it’s gone from ‘they made disparaging comments’ to ‘they are rapists.’
Eric McLeod:
““RED ALERT!!!!! RED F–KING ALERT!!!!!” reads one post. “Apparently one of the ladies has seen or heard something about the recent posts in the gentleman’s. We have to get rid of the evidence.”” (from http://dalgazette.com/featured/questions-in-dentistry-scandal-go-unanswered-amid-media-onslaught/)
Doesn’t sound like innocent little boys. Seems to me like they were just not expecting to get caught. Losers. Grown men, and losers.
Or just read THIS article. It is far more in depth than any of CBC, The Herald, or Metronews previously printed. The mens comments speak for themselves. A Hate F**k poll is NOT, as you say – a simple disparaging comment. Hate F**k. As in, a dentistry student wants to Hate F**k your mother. Or your sister – since you can’t seem to understand that when you make it about someone you work with everyday, stand beside at the lab table, study with, and heck, even party with it becomes not merely rape fantasy, but rape planning – especially in the eyes of the victim. That any of these women, or for that matter decent male classmates should have to face these idiots in class is abhorrent, and a total failure for Dalhousie.
I think you really need to get a handle on what exactly, you are defending. If these men are friends of yours, cut your losses. If you are one of them – and given the tone of your posts, seems very likely- start making other career plans. I do not feel for you.
Why would I go to a dentist that jokes about chloroforming women and hatefucking them? Does that make me crazy because I would not trust someone like this? Why are people (mostly men) so intent on standing up for these guys? If they were threatening to hatefuck their male peers, would any men want to have them as their dentists? They need to be expelled because they are no longer credible as dentists. They are obviously psycho. Or do all men joke about these things? I can say I don’t joke about raping anyone or drugging anyone. Why don’t men take rape seriously? A lot of men/boys experience sexual assault and rape too! Its a serious issue and one that should NEVER be joked about regardless of gender! Why is that so hard for people to understand?
I find it interesting that people are so surprised and appalled by this situation. You are incredibly naive if you think that these sorts of statements aren’t being made millions of times a day in private among men in various frat-style groups. This time it just happened to be captured on facebook and exposed. And the content is very tame compared to what you can find all over the internet or even just at a typical undergrad kegger in the form of jokes. I’m not saying it is okay but it is very VERY common. Heck, half of what is on tv is more explicitly sexist than this. Wake up people, this is nothing unusual.
I think another important thing to remember is that this isn’t illegal, it is morally wrong but it isn’t illegal. We can say whatever we want about anybody, it’s called free speech. Of course we should frowning upon this sort of conduct and teach people why it is wrong, but that is all we can do. We can’t punish misogyny out of people, it doesn’t work, they will just become more deeply entrenched in it and blame their punishers and women. Further, kicking these men out of school and then pretending like we have cleaned out hands is ludicrous; to remain consistent we would have to kick out 50% of the male population from school. What man hasn’t at least heard a misogynous joke at a party? Are we guilty just for fraternizing with such misogynists without publicly denouncing them? The point is that this is a huge social problem and it is dumb to just boot a few kids from school because they happened to get caught doing something that is done millions of times daily and pretend like we have dealt with something.
Also, I find it interesting that nobody is concerned with privacy here. As much as I would highly dislike some of these men, I question whether we have the right to pry into their private conversations. This was not an official group of any kind, it was a private facebook group and as much as their conduct disgusts me I feel as if they should have the right to joke about whatever they want in private if they aren’t actually hurting anybody. Why is this any of our business? We might personally want to know so we can subjectively judge people in the way that we do, but this doesn’t mean the public in general has a right to know. Bottom line is, we might not like these men but the fact that they told highly distasteful jokes in private does not suggest that they would do anything illegal or even treat women badly in public life.
“Bottom line is, we might not like these men but the fact that they told highly distasteful jokes in private does not suggest that they would do anything illegal or even treat women badly in public life.”
Right well that’s gonna be enough for me to trust them with my mouth… not! This kind of sexual assault does happen by doctors and dentists and other people in places of power and trust. Why would women want to risk something like this? They are obviously hateful people and even more so where women are concerned. If you were a women would you want one of these guys as your dentist?
They should be expelled and if not names should be released! the public has a right to know if they are going to put their trust and business into these ‘professionals’. At this level their behaviour is completely unexceptable and they need to be made an example of. It seems there’s more going on by the president to cover behaviour like that considering the schools good reputation. He seems to be looking out for them and nothing else. Terrible call how they’re ‘solving’ this. I know I will never employ a dentist from that school now.
Ivan Sonofabitch: No one is limiting their right to be morons. But the right to be a moron does not come free of the consequences of being a moron.
And when you consider that they will in a few short months have access to both drugs, and women (and men, and children) from a position of power, at the very least we should know who they are. Better yet, take them at their word, and suspend them. Make them fight for access, don’t just give it too them. Make them prove that they won’t do the things they have said they will do.
Boys will be boys. The lads were just letting off some steam. People need to stop being so sensitive.
Oakeshott: How long do you get to be a ‘boy blowing off steam’ 25? 26? 28? 30? Because that is how old a 4th year DDS student is.
But you knew that, didn’t you? Of course you did.
It doesn’t appear that there’s a crime here so it’s very unlikely any legal action can be taken. Go ahead and publicly name the “gentlemen” involved and let the chips fall where they may. They’ve made their beds, let them lie in them.
all of this makes it pretty obvious: we need a militant feminist movement in halifax. we need a movement to confront oppression everywhere.
@John Lattel – I absolutely agree with you. Moronic behavior should have consequences.
And, given the stage at which these idiots are, in their chosen profession, we are all right to be concerned about their character, their professionalism, their basic fitness to be functioning members of society. Absolutely. So, if I’m leaning toward caution in the face of the mob, it is not for their sake, but for ours. Any arbitrary construct, such as so-called “rape-culture” is by it’s very nature, conveniently amorphous. Watch it change to accommodate any situation. Watch it become a tool for stifling dissenting opinion. “If you’re not with us; you’re with the rapists” Sound familiar?, Or are we only on a slippery slope when the Harper government is doing it? I really don’t know. I do know, that over the years I have learned to distrust my immediate emotional response to disturbing situations. What is emotionally satisfying, is rarely just, Beneficial – rarer still.
@anarchothinker – militancy might be stimulating to the not yet fully developed ego, but I guarantee you this: Militant feminism has created far more misogyny than it has ever “cured”.
And a North American student (high school or uni, because that’s what you sound like) whingeing about “oppression” is just as offensive , just as childish and just as stupid as applying the “Boys will be boys” dictum to this particular case.
Ivan Sonofabitch: “Caution in the face of the Mob”. And this is a problem of per option. It is not necessarily correct to assume that because many, many people want justice, they are a ‘mob’. Most of the comments are well thought out, and while they ask for harsh punishment, no one is advocating that we take it into our own hands.
Better would be caution in the face of the acts of the perpetrators: Take them at their word, act on it, and make them defend themselves against the Dalhousie Code of Conduct and Dentistry Code of Ethics – both have been clearly outlined in other articles here, and both have been seriously violated.
Assuming they didn’t really mean it is, simply, dangerous.
To my own comment, below: Perception. Not per option. Really, how stupid are the guys who code for autocorrect?
“What are they going to do…kick every guy out of fourth year?”
No, just the dozen A-holes on Facebook.
@bebetter
the relationship between this and the polytechnique massacre is obvious. both actions were compelled by misogyny. advocating violence against women and enacting it are not the same, but are pretty obviously related.
Misogyny is real, rape culture is real, and the result is quite a bit of violence against women. If we want to eliminate that violence, we need to eliminate the cultural attitudes in which it is rooted. this is a pretty simple level of analysis, but it beats sticking your head in the sand and treating all events as isolated.
This is not about censoring speech or boys will be boys; it is not solely about justice for the female classmates either. It is about violence against women, pernicious sexual violence! There are many reasons to believe what people say in jest. It doesn’necessarily mean that a person who jokes about incapacitating a woman to have sex with her will act on that but they ARE telling you the truth of what they would like to do!
Let’s remember when we excuse this behavior as boyish that it was aided and abetted by some faculty members or are they just boys too? Dentistry as practised in Canada is less than an honourable profession. It’s practised and controlled mostly by privileged white men. It betrays a shameful disregard for the oral health of anyone whose income is below the median.
Dalhousie as an institution is, sadly, just the most recent example of protecting privilege over justice. They are not even adhering to their own rules of conduct.
Most of what needs to be said had already been said; little of what needs to be done has been done. Let’s put the following into effect everywhere: No justice; no peace!
“Kick every guy out of fourth year” – might as well, because if Dal doesn’t do any expulsions, I don’t see how any Dental Practice would hire any male student within the next 4 years.
If I were one of the “good” male students I would be pushing for expulsion of the “bad” in order to save my own career.
This is a defining moment in time for Dalhousie; ” there is a tide in their affairs, which taken at the flood will lead on to distinction and future generations saying they reacted with honor and integrity, but omitted, they will be bound forever in the shallows and miseries of disdain and remorse. On such a sea they are now afloat”
May I suggest that to merely cancel the public clinic is to take the latter course.
#ironicmisandry
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/…
I especially liked this line, here:
As Zimmerman puts it: “The men who get annoyed by misandry jokes are in my experience universally brittle, insecure, humorless weenies with victim complexes,” while the “many intelligent, warm, confident feminist men in my life … mostly get the joke immediately and play along. They’re not worried I actually want to milk them for their tears.”
You just know that stupidity of this magnitude is the product of a post-secondary education.
Two points which I think have been missing in the discussion:
1) The president can’t expel people on a whim any more than the PM can arbitrarily imprison someone. I’m not sure I’d want to go to a university where that was the case. Had the formal process been undertaken (ie – not restorative justice), a hearing of the senate disciplinary committee would have to take place. The student’s would have to be given at least 10 working days notice. Given the winter break and the difficulties in getting staff and students for it, I imagine that the earliest this could happen would be some time in the new year. Even if this process was/is adopted, it’s “in camera”, meaning the names of the students involved would be confidential.
2) Restorative Justice (processes which include the TRCs in South Africa and for residential schools here) isn’t the “tap on the wrist” that people seem to think it is, nor is it “sitting around and talking about your feelings”. RJ is a process which places the victim and the harmed communities at the centre of the process, as opposed to retributive justice where the victim is pushed to the side as others determine the fate of the wrongdoer. Retributive Justice would deal only with the students who posted in the group, and punish them to the extent the decision maker felt was appropriate. Even if they were expelled from the program and run out of the province on a rail, the harm they caused and the underlying culture that spawned their actions would remain. It is also likely that the “gentlemen” wouldn’t fully appreciate why their actions were wrong, and would continue to harbour misogynistic sentiments.
I say “communities” because there are a number at issue here: The women specifically referenced in the group, female students at Dal and the Dalhousie community in general, and Nova Scotians who may someday need dental services and wonder if their Doc is one of these individuals. All of those groups have been harmed (to various extents – some more than others) by the actions of these individuals.
While RJ is can be helpful in these situations, often has higher victim satisfaction and lower recidivism, having only read about what has happened in various news outlets I can’t say for certain whether it is the right way forward in this case. However, bashing RJ and dragging up the same “soft on crime” talking points of the CPC doesn’t do any good.
What is Dal waiting for? They are a risk to the public and they must be stopped now. If they are allowed to graduate and become regulated health care professionals, the public will be put at further risk. This is really a non-issue. Expel them right away.
If neither the Faculty of Dentistry nor the regulatory college will weed these guys out, here is an alternate strategy: wait until they become dentists, then file complaints en masse regarding professional misconduct – because that’s what their words and behaviours amount to. Keep them all so busy dealing with complaints – including paying for lawyers – that they will have neither the time nor the financial resources to set up practice.
As a mother to daughters, this infuriates me to think these men will have females literally helpless in their chairs, I read something about nitrous oxide with reference to hate fucking! And the school wants to do restorative justice? This is beyond that, some of these men have criminal minds and hate women and they should never be allowed alone in a room with any female while nitrous is around! I am against restorative justice for the men who continued to sneer at the school knowing, those men are of the same mindset as the Polytechnique killer! They should not be allowed to be Dentists in Canada. And for those who say “oh they just made comments” so did terrorists on Facebook before they murdered a soldier!”
Just my two cents but expel these students now. I have heard the argument that “no crime has been committed” and this “was a private Facebook group” but it does not matter. As future professionals in their chosen fields, they are held to high standards of conduct like any other professionals such as doctors, teachers, lawyers, et al. This should not stand in this day and age and the university has duty to do the right thing lest they be seen as condoning this sort of behaviour for their graduating students.
henry hicks would have known how to deal with these issues…he’d be ashamed of the students responsible and of the university leaders’ weak decisions so far…as am i as a dalhousie graduate….
The only crime I see here is defamation of character. Hatefuck does not mean rape. A simple Google search will clearly show that. The only danger to the public is that they are being mislead by the media.
I am ashamed of the judgemental attitudes on display before any real process has been implemented. I guess its hard to see clearly with the blinders on.
Just pull out their teeth with vise-grips and let the women trainees do the work
Was anyone assaulted? Was anyone stalked? In short, has any of this crossed over into the “real world”? There is NOTHING I see posted here that is not posted in thousands of facebook groups all the damn time. The only exception being they name other students by name, that may not fly, but calling it rape? Funny how women can trivialize rape and it’s ok but men can’t even joke about anything that can be misconstrued as rape by hysterical “militant feminists” (to quote another commenter).
And to anonymous, jesus christ get a hold of your brand! You went from “FBI Fridays” with glorious lulz to allowing whining SJW babies to drag it into the mud.
“They were posted on Saturday, December 6—the 25th anniversary of the Montreal Massacre where 14 female École Polytechnique students were murdered.”
You know what else happened on Dec 6th in history? The Halifax explosion. These explosive facts coming to light on that date means that it is OK to link that tragedy to this event? I guess we can now blame dental students for the Halifax explosion.
Do people think that these guys WANTED their facebook group to be outed by the media on Dec. 6th so that it could correspond to the anniversary of the Montreal massacre!? They never intended their PRIVATE facebook group to be discovered by anyone else, EVER! Trying to link this to the Montreal massacre is utterly ridiculous! Media did this, not the “Gentlemen”. Also, a couple more points. 1. They have been university students for what, almost 7 yrs.? If these guys were really the terrible monsters that they’re being painted as, why wasn’t there at least one other complaint against any of them!? 13 male students. 7 years! Especially in light of the witch hunt that’s taking place now, you’d think that if anyone had any dirt on these guys, someone would have come forward!? Anyone? 2. It’s now been over a month, and None of the “victims”? (female classmates I guess, although nothing was actually done to anyone. Remember, these FB conversations were never intended to be seen by anyone outside the group) to my knowledge have even filed any sort of complaint against any of these guys! You would think that if these women were so afraid for their safety as most commenters seem to believe, that at least one women would lodge a formal complaint to strengthen the “prosecution” here. These are smart, hardworking university students with. . . wait for it. . . a sense of humor! Leave them alone. There are real problems facing women both throughout the world and in this country. Stop trivializing the real problems by making a mountain out of a mole hill here. It is not a “hate-crime” every time a feminist gets offended.
Go ahead, kick them out for making jokes in a private discussion. Then ban Lena Dunham’s book and Eve Ensler’s play. Fire Adele Mercier for openly stating that young males in custody wanted to get raped by female guards. These women publicly approve of pedophilia and rape – real life sexual assaults of girls and boys offered in an enticing light.
Hypocrisy much?
There are actually supporters of this “Gentlemen” Club. Incredible. Perhaps these members of the Club can reveal their own identities so that their supporters can support them openly.
Further, let the market dictates. By revealing their identities, if their supporters are in a position to employ them, these supporters can also openly invite these “Gentlemen” into their employ, whatever profession it might be.
And do their mothers know? If not, by revealing their identities, their mothers can now have constructive conversations with these “Gentlemen”, or perhaps these “Gentlemen” can convince their mothers that their behaviour is acceptable.
Surely, their supporters want these “Gentlemen” identified. These “Gentlemen” are “badasses” but we do not know which one is the most “badass”. Perhaps we can have a vote to decide that once their identities are known. Many supporters would second that notion.
“I fear the weight of all of the Dental School’s past transgressions may lay upon the heads of this group.” Well, at least we know who have ALREADY graduated from Dal Dentistry.
I’m currently looking for a dentist for my young son. I will be checking to make sure that I don’t pick a Dalhousie graduate, unless they are female or have been practising for some time. Sad, but if the names of these group members aren’t made public, and Dalhousie is doing this kind of discipline only, then as a consumer I don’t have much other recourse. These were not frat boys, but forth year students in their discipline, and they should be behaving in a manner deserving of the public trust placed in their profession.
The best part about this whole story is the hypocrisy and/or infantile level of naiveté expressed by people acting appalled at the comments these young men made (in private nonetheless).
Yes, let’s all pretend we have always gotten along perfectly with everyone in our lives. (start sarcasm) I personally, no matter how angry or stressed I have been, have never once in my life made any hurtful/offensive comments, just like all of you. Because, as we all know, offensive comments deserve the just punishment of:
1. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt.
2. The opportunity cost of 6-8 years of education.
3. Forfeiture of a career.
4. Ostracization from the very society that cultivated the comments you are being punished for.
Even if I had made offensive comments it would be different because I am not a professional. People designated as “professionals” forfeit their humanity when they choose those careers. As such, if you are a doctor, dentist, lawyer, veterinarian, optometrist, etc. you have no right to a personal opinion, and don’t even think about having a sense of humour involving anything that isn’t G-rated. You are on the job 24/7, as it should be. I mean, when I make racist/sexist/otherwise offensive joke it’s okay, because my job, as a non-professional, doesn’t have any ethical requirements and it doesn’t matter if people trust me. (end sarcasm)
WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS TO LET THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE DO THEIR JOB.
Punishment yes, destroy for life, get real everyone. Like they are the first students to do foolish things. I know all the people who want to fry them are perfect right.
Halifax police is now investigating to determine if there has been any criminal wrongdoing.
In their typical way, Dalhousie initially denied the request to the FB posts and only later willing to co-operate with police, blaming the initial obstruction on an “misunderstanding”.
So we do agree, that WE REALLY NEED TO LET THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE DO THEIR JOB.
There must be a lot of FB posts made by members of this “Gentlemen” club over the past three years plus. So, there are a lot of possibilities for charges; among the many possibilities in the Criminal Code of Canada:
/Assault
265. (1) A person commits an assault when
…
(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or
…
(2) This section applies to all forms of assault, including sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm and aggravated sexual assault./
Having access to stupefying drugs certainly would not help these “Gentlemen’s” cause.
These Facebook posts were jokes! Bad jokes, maybe, in poor taste jokes maybe, but friggin jokes! AS IF any of the fanatical witch hunters have never made similar jokes in poor taste about anyone or anything! Get real!
Meanwhile, there’s been a massacre – a REAL friggin massacre – not a thought crime – in Paris, France. The bullies who can’t take a joke in France, aren’t they a little bit like the humourless fanatics in Canada?
Get a life, you rabid, humourless and hypocritical “feminists”.
P.S. If you really care about women’s rights you might want to protest about REAL violations, such as the kidnapping, rape and murder of hundreds of Christian girls by those vicious islamic fanatics, Boko Haram.
“For now it will be good for the lolz,” he wrote, “and in the future it may be good for us bros to stick together”
Considering what their “jokes” were about, that is one chilling, telling statement.
“There are girls in our class that are going to seriously have their feelings hurt if this all goes down,” one wrote. “I fear the weight of all of the Dental School’s past transgressions may lay upon the heads of this group.”
They clearly knew it was wrong.
if this were any other group of people, discussing a crime or assault, planning in detail and naming potential hits, they would be held responsible for their actions, would they not?
I don’t want any of these men as my dentist, and I feel it would be due diligence to let people know who they are, if allowed to graduate/practice dentistry.
Personally, I can remember group of women joking about killing men, on the internet. You know venting on twitter #killallmen.
No one even care, it was well understood that it was a joke. Saw women and men joking about raping men, maiming men’s penis. Nope, no one lost their jobs, or their tuition.
I am not excusing misogyny, but I am not excusing misandry either. I’m just putting thing in their proper perspective. Think about that.
Look on the bright side…….nobody shot any Lion