The proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax will cost taxpayers $160 million, with the province and city each contributing $57 million, and the federal government providing the balance, $46 million. These budget figures were included in a detailed proposal given to the provincial NDP caucus last Wednesday, and were provided to The Coast by Halifax MLA Howard Epstein.
Infrastructure minister Bill Estabrooks, who is overseeing the convention centre project for the Darrell Dexter government, declined Monday to comment on possible financing schemes and would not confirm Epstein’s figures.
“It’s too rich for our blood; it’s too expensive,” says Epstein. “I don’t think the province can afford to add $57 million to our debt. I don’t think HRM taxpayers want to add $57 million to HRM’s debt and put upwardly pressure on property taxes—so it’s way too expensive.”
The expected $57 million contribution from the city comes as news to Halifax councillors, who had expected only to provide minimal logistic support for the convention centre.
“That’s a lot of money,” says councillor Jerry Blumenthal, who has been supportive of the convention centre proposal. “That’s going to require a lot of thinking. Where do we get it? I’m hesitating; I care very much about my residents, and I don’t want their taxes going up. I’m going to have to see it on paper, how we’re going to pay for it.”
“If we were $30 million in the hole last year, and we had to make all the cuts we did, what do you think $57 million will do?” asks councillor Dawn Sloane. “If it looks like it’s too rich for our blood, then I’ll have to pass. And I’m one who thinks we need a new convention centre. But we need a lot of things. We need a stadium, or a partnership with a university on a stadium, we need a cultural arts centre, we need an aquarium on the waterfront. But if we don’t get tax reform, where the suburbs are paying their full share, then this will bankrupt the downtown.”
The city has recently embarked on two large capital projects—the $50 million central library downtown and the $41 million four-pad arena in Bedford—that have stretched HRM’s debt policies. During a recent budget update given to council, finance director Cathie O’Toole warned that incurring additional debt might affect the city’s credit rating, leading to increased costs for borrowing.
Epstein publicly raised objections to the convention centre earlier this month via an electronic newsletter distributed to constituents, and elaborated on those objections in an interview Friday. His concerns range from financial to philosophical to aesthetic.
“I’ve always been clear that I’m very much in favour of development in downtown Halifax—it certainly needs it—but not this development,” says Epstein. “The buildings are way too tall. I think the height and the design will be really bad for Argyle Street. It’ll be bad for the view from Citadel Hill. It’s going to be unpleasant to be on the outside in terms of wind, the shadow is something I also have in mind for Argyle Street—I think in fact it’s going to ruin business on Argyle Street.”
Epstein would rather see development of four- to six-storey buildings throughout downtown, and worries that a project on the scale of the convention centre would destroy the market for further development downtown. He is also critical of Trade Centre Limited, the provincial crown corporation that operates the existing convention centre and which has been lobbying for the new, larger convention centre now being debated.
“I think the Trade Centre Limited has played kind of a scandalous role here,” says Epstein. “They’ve put out documents that pretend to be serious studies of what the market potential is for a larger convention centre, but their studies have built into them such dubious assumptions and blue-sky optimistic assumptions. They have no credibility with me, and I hope they have no credibility with my colleagues.”
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This article appears in Sep 23-29, 2010.
The convention centre we have has never made profit. We have been presented with a “build it and they will come” plan developed by known crackpots. More and more cities are realizing that development = progress = the future = wealth and happiness is not a correct equation and the truth is much more complex. The thing that is clear is that the project would never go forward unless the government used the people’s money to build it. So, no business person or reasoned individual will support it but we as a group are expected to all support a financial burden for the next decades so that the developer can make a fat profit with the rest of the complex. Thank you, but no thank you!
I can’t beleive Epstein leaked this to the the public…I can’t imagine cabinet would be too pleased about that. Another reason you will never see him as a cabinet minister.
This convention centre must be built. This is making me very nervouse to hear this. Hopefully the NDP will do the right thing and approve this new convention centre.
Bravo to Mr Epstein, no reason for this to be kept under wraps.
HRM has finally been pushed to put up money for a project they were quite happy to support with words but no money.
Now it looks like the province and the feds have forced HRM into putting money where their mouth is.
HRM can commit their share by agreeing to use the incremental property taxes, approx $10,000,000 a year from the hotel & office development.
Good deal for HRM because after less than 10 years the total development is a net contributor to the tax revenues and also adds to the revenue from the hotel tax.
If councillors walk they will look financially stupid.
Well, well! I must offer my highest compliments to Mr. Bousquet. He is the only journalist in the province to bring Nova Scotians the truth about this convention center.
How is it possible that neither Opposition Party has uttered one single word of concern about this project? This funding would result in an immediate and substantial tax hike in HRM.
I supose the next campaign will see Halifax trying to get the province to pay the full cost. Us citiots don’t want to pay for our fancy new Convention Center with our money. Let’s get the folks up in Cape Breton or down Yarmouth to pay for it.
Haliguy: you should sit back and re-read what you wrote. Apparently you can’t believe that information about the proposed spending of public, taxpayer money was leaked to the *public*. You’re nervous about being told how your money might be wasted? Jesus, man, and you’ve got the right to vote – God help us.
“(The Trade Centre has) no credibility with me.” says Epstein. Well, Mr. Epstein has no credibility with me as he was passed over for cabinet and “excessively” (his and the Auditor General’s words) expended my tax dollars (in part) on books for personal gifts and use. I believe he has little to say of what a good expenditure of tax dollars would or would not be.
And the anti-progress allstars of Bousquet and Epstein team up again. Of course Epstein would leak this, he’s one of the headpins of the heritage trust, who hide behind the veil of the save the view crew and put out reams of false information about this. Maybe this proposal isn’t in the right form right now, but this business of leaking sensitive information before it is meant to be released is ridiculous. Estabrooks kept it quiet to take the time it needed to get unbiased opinions and not rush into anything. Epstein was probably waiting to put his claws on this to sink it because…… its tall, plain and simple. Keep downtown to 6 stories? The downtown would look like burnside, not to mention it’s not economical. How about all that money (what 87 mill?) the NDP pissed away because they can’t figure out how to use a calculator? I’m sure some of that could be used here, but of course no mention of that, just more bashing of the evil “elites” trying to poison this city with progress. No wonder the CFL is looking towards Moncton, they understand the idea of forward progress.
Well, can we now just say it costs too much and move on?
We could, but won’t the proponents be back in a few months with another scheme? I really think we need to get this settled.
Big concerts, convention centres, sporting games and most notably government financed business associations are products of a healthy economy NOT the other way round. Trade Centre Limited is a symbol that has come to mistake itself for the thing it is intended to symbolize.
We kind of have to get this worked out. A healthy economy finances growth, prosperity and perks like leisure activities. We play after the work is done. Anybody who says otherwise lies somewhere between Tom Sawyer and Lyle Lanley and we have to recognize them for the monorail salesmen they are.
Populist hucksters have been appealing to small town ambitions since… well, since there have been towns. It’s the oldest trick in the book. But what can you do? People love leisure and shortcuts. Combining the two is a peanutbutter cup solution few can resist – especially when the alternative solution is plain old hard work.
Look… let’s just stick with the hard work solution for a while.
Here’s the link and the names of the 1600 or so people, plus or minus the 3 anonymous internet posters, who were coaxed or cajoled into supporting this scheme such as it is:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/suppor…
The other 939,000 of us are just hoping this all goes away this week so we can start talking about what we need to do to create an even more awesome future for our wonderful community.
We are bored with these boring old-timers half-baked ideas about pin-striped progress. There’s lots of other new ideas out there that look more like tomorrow and a lot less like yesterday, but they never get through if we go in this convention-al direction.
And, let’s say it together, This one costs too much!
John Wesley Chisholm
We are such HICKS! Building convention centres underground was a 90s thing to do. We’re going into 2011, for pete’s sake.
What are other cities doing? They’re building up. They’re building windows and light. They’re building panoramic views. They’re building green. What is the motto for Montreal’s new Palais des Congrès? “fenêtres sur le monde/views on the world”
What are we doing? For $160 million we’re burying ourselves in Rank Inc’s basement. We’re allowing him 18 storeys and paying close to 1/2 the cost of the complex. And it all seems to suit everyone fine. Because we have to build bigger. Doesn’t matter that attendees won’t get to look out at our funky streetscape or -gasp- the harbour. Doesn’t matter that it won’t meet all of Trade Centre Ltd’s original requirements and specifications. Doesn’t matter that we’ll go even deeper in debt. Doesn’t matter, because the new convention centre will be bigger.
What a way to give us that competitive edge! What an embarrassment.
Epstein’s book collection at taxpayer’s expense didn’t include one on tact. This guy is a bitter treehugger.
Oh, and the building of the centre will “ruin business for Argyle Street”. We’re talking about one popular though almost bankrupt bar, which had existed in a shadow until The Herald building came down only a year or so ago. That’s baked. These heritage folks smoked waaaaay too much dope in college.
This project is unnecessary, unfeasible and unwanted. Put tht money somewhere it can be used to benefit, not hinder, our city.
It costs too much. That money can be better spent elsewhere… or… not at all. Aren’t we ridiculously in debt already? Crazy. I’m sure Epstein’s book collection didn’t cost us $57mil. That has nothing to do with the fact that this convention centre is a crock of very expensive bullshit.
Hey Realist…you’re right it is my money and I want it to go towards a new convention centre that will generate jobs development and a larger tax base to pay for the services we need. The return on investment is to great to pass up. Its people like you that can’t see beyound the end of you nose and don’t seem to understand how to build a economy. You are brianwashed by socialist like Tim Bousquet and his misleading facts and figures.
rapallo and others..please get your facts right before you state lies…since 2001,the trade centre has been in the black,take a look at their financial statements…they have brought in close to a billion dollars in taxes and spin offs…just imagine how empty halifax’s downtown would have been if the convention centre wasn’t there…halifax,wake up before Moncton’s new convention centre puts us out of business…oh,and that’s why i never trusted mr.epstein.can’t keep an secret,not a team player…
This is a deliberate leak by Dexter & Estabrooks to gauge public reaction.
Don’t go blaming Epstein, Dexter knew that once the NDP causcus was told the details that word would spread into the public realm and therefore Dexter & Estabrooks can sit back and see what the public says, and then Estabrooks can express fake shock and horror at the anticipated actions of Epstein.
Now the ball drops into the laps of HRM.
If we are going to “leak” the costs, let’s leak the benefits as well, so we can have an objective look at the business case. So, if this is going to cost $57 million in municipal taxes, what will it bring in in municipal taxes (industry experts seem to agree that the $3.2 million/year figure supplied in the 2009 Gardner Pinfold Study was extremely conservative)? If it’s going to cost $57 million in provincial taxes, what will it bring in year over year in out-of-province revenues? Will the building of a new convention centre actually spur other development (this happened with the old one)?
There are intangibles to the centre as well, having to do with knowledge attraction, youth retention, etc. But in the meantime, let’s not just talk about costs in isolation of everything else.
Nope, it definitely loses money. Lots of it. More than all the benefit estimates combined and those loses will certainly be bigger if we have a second centre.
But you don’t need to believe me. Here’s the link to the Trade Centre’s annual reports. Using all their most optimistic numbers this is still nothing short of a financial tragedy.
http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/en/home/…
Halifax is slipping into a backwater nationally. We need to invest wisely in projects and development that can help us truly be the best place in canada to live. People who come to our city are amazed by the lack of progress in our core and the negativity which surrounds every descision the city needs to make. we need to step back and look at the whole picture and at this point our city competes poorly on the national and internatioanl stage. We retain few of the graduates that our many post secondary insitutions produce. Our lack of vision has resulted in a confused public and a total lack of identity for the city. everyone supports the value of our history but a vocal minority has hijacked the agenda for the future.
A new convention centre is a part of our future that is needed. paying 1/10 of the project for the city is called a good deal in my books.
Reading through the ad hominem attacks and vitrol, I take all the Convention Centre proponents posting here at their word – that they truly believe their policies will produce broad benefits for all.
I think they are captive to economic theories few of them understand and that are simplistic in the extreme. These theories have been espoused by populist hucksters selling shortcuts to ambitious towns since towns began. The “leisure economy” is the Tigris and Euphrates of public scandal.
I believe there are better ways to invest and save tax money to build health, wealth and happiness in the community. They all involve hard work and small business which we won’t be able to afford to do if we go in this convention-al direction.
Put as simply as possible: healthy economies “spin off” convention centres and leisure activities; not the other way around.
There is nothing old-fashioned about the truth.
With regard to Minister Bill telling Metro news that he finds it disappointing that Minister Howard would tell the public how much of it’s money is going into the convention center, perhaps Minister bill needs to be told that it’s disappointing that he thinks that this should be kept secret.
How much public money via tax dollars is being put into the 20 storey TRILLIUM Project by W.Fares company on South St. in Halifax?
For the reality and logic impaired the correct answer in : NO PUBLIC FUNDING!
Next question why is there no request for public funding for the Trillium project?
Because it is a stand alone profitable venture that will contribute to the city’s tax base !
Why is there a request for $160 million dollars from public tax dollars at all 3 levels of government for the proposed new convention centre?
Answer for those with their heads up their butts: the convention centre is NOT
PROFITABLE otherwise the promotors would be obtaining private funding.
MLA Howard …..”Epstein said the number shouldn’t come as a big surprise, since $140 million (Ed note early guesstamate like the bus terminal it will skyrocket)was a past estimate of the convention centre cost, and it would be split among the three levels of government.
Epstein opposes the development, and the cost is one of his many reasons. He said he doesn’t think the province or city could afford it, and doesn’t think the estimated economic benefits outweigh the cost. He also pointed out that it would squeeze out other projects competing for capital funding.
Epstein said he also doesn’t think there’s enough convention business to justify the new centre, and the development, would affect the view of Halifax Harbour from Citadel Hill.
He said there’s enough room for development downtown to accommodate office and residential needs in buildings of six storeys or less.
“No matter how you slice it, it’s baloney,” Epstein said.”
Full article
To see the facts (not the hype) that he basis financially sound statement on see…http://www.governmentripoff.com/001.html
Howard Epstein for Mayor!!!!!!!
Bruce DeVenne
wow that’s butt ugly 🙁
After the talk I heard at work today, I think it’s safe to say the convention center proponents and their backpocket politicians have grossly mis-calculated the public’s overwhelming disaproval of this project.
Several people pointed out that they just put the HST up 2%. Someone else said they’re paying $200 more each year in property taxes now. And we just bought a library and a 4-pad rink while we’re still paying for the new sewer system.
How can we make this stop? There must be someway to challenge this through some sort of group court action. Is there any legal precedent for a taxpayer’s injunction against a wasteful and abusive capitol project?
People talk about trust in our politicians yet given the option of allowing the cabinet of Premier Dexter to make an informed decision on the convention center Howard decides to violate the very trust that Nova Scotians put in this NDP government. That is why he is not in cabinet and rightly so. It is not about Howard’s irresponsible act it is about giving the government the opportunity to fairly put the issue before the public with all the facts, not just the initial cost. Many Nova Scotians voted NDP for the first time based on giving them a chance to run a seven billion dollar business. Howard and the Pacey Patrol is the reason they will not vote NDP again if this left wing element continues to inhibit the governments opportunity to govern. Does anyone in Howard’s riding care, I mean really care about the future in Nova Scotia.
Austyn
I find myself once again annoyed to have Mr. Epstein as my MLA. While I respect his passion and beliefs, he does NOT represent the views of the majority of his constituents. He was a natural for a cabinet post but his extreme independent views do not allow him to be a team player and as a result, he lacks the vision required to lead a province. I hope Mr. Epstein is prepared to listen to all of the voices from his riding and provide some balance in his representation in the future.
For all the legit complaints about the convention center, I’ll be damned if in the course of this entire saga I’ve heard a single alternative suggestion with what to do with the lot. Having that godawful pit in the middle of downtown (the middle of the downtown entertainment district, at that) is unacceptable.
Not that that should mean the center should be built there for the sake of filling up space, but criticizing the development is shallow when you’re not offering up a more appealing idea.
Yeah, the city can’t use the $15 million in tax dollars for a development that will cost them $2.5 million a year…
And the downtown doesn’t need the hundreds of new residents this project will create.
And we really need to save the view of the woodside oil refinery from one specific location of Citadel Hill…
And we should predicate our entire existence on what tourists who come here one or two days a year, vs. the residents who are trying to make a life for themselves here…
And tourists will stay away in droves from Halifax because we are building an 18 story building – which in any other city would be a low rise, or mid rise at best…
This whole thing is laughable! No surprise Epstein is leading the charge into nonsense…
Hi A pack of…
It has been stated from the beginning the Mr. Ramia has plans B, C, and D for the property and would be quite content to go with any of them. He’s a respected developer with a good eye and I have confidence that he will work with the best interests of the city in mind to build something wonderful on the Herald property.
A lot of people have been putting forward ideas. If for some crazy reason he were to ask me what I thought, I would suggest he attach an awesome indoor water park to his hotel complex.
Indoor waterparks are the wave of the future… so to speak… and if you think back to when you were a kid and how you always bugged your parents to stay at a hotel with a nice pool, then multiplied that by the fun factor of the latest waterpark stuff you would be able to imagine how indoor waterparks create hotel business like nobody’s business.
Northern cities like ours are particularly well suited for this kind of thing – not only do they bring money in from away they encourage “staycations” that help plug the colossal leak of our wealth to southern all-inclusive resorts.
An indoor water park has EVERY “spin-off” of a convention centre and it also has another feature – they can be scaled to the developers budget and expanded later and they make money GALLONS of it!
Here’s some industry information if you are interested:
http://www.waterparks.com/funfacts.asp
You might also look at the case of Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin a place that literally built an entire economy around waterparks.
I believe this is such a great idea that if he were to do this instead of a convention centre I here publicly state that I would invest all the investment capital I have available in the project. It is a sure winner and I’d love to get in on the ground floor.
John Wesley Chisholm
Halifax.
Well that’s…creative
Tim Bousquet has come to the end of his crusade to anchor the Halifax downtown in a state of decay, happy to watch while other cities in North America expand, develop and grow. This “story” is nothing more than an opinion piece that isolates a few negative comments for the benefit of plugging his cause. It almost reads as desparate, as though he’s run out of legitimate information. If he were a journalist, he would balance his stories and try to weigh the benefits of the convention centre against the costs. Halifax needs this, and the people who care about the future of the city understand that.
People need to realize that we don’t pay out cash on day one for the complete cost. Do you think Fares put up the whole $90M or whatever it was for the Trillium? No of course not, you put up 10-20% and get a mortgage like everyone else. Sure it’s a risk and I agree that the convention portion in the basement is stupid but doing nothing is unacceptable. In reality $140M is not a lot of money these days for a city / province to invest in it’s future, especially when its more like $14M-30M in up front cash that generates additional tax revenue to service the debt and contribute to the principal.
I’ll be very sad to see this go through. halifax is continuously strangling itself with silly ideas like this. the money could go to much better projects. better infrastructure, bike lanes, cleaning up the harbour further, community gardens, etc.
why aren’t we making this city livable for the people in it? we’re pushing our own citizens into a corner here, & the city, councilors & politicians will realize all their mistakes too late.
all our energy is being focused into bringing outsiders money onto the peninsula, with the commons concerts & this. start revitalizing downtown for haligonians. we’re giving halifax another black eye if this building is built.
This is a huge huge huge disappointment. Not only should this never happen, but if it does happen then we have this terrible building in the city. I like modern buildings, but that design is terrible. Take a look at the new convention centre Ottawa is building right now, it’s amazing – http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/. Just like Halifax to build something so unnecessary and so ugly.
ottawa’s new convention centre: http://ottawaconventioncentre.com/_files/i…
halifax’s new convention centre: http://www.thecoast.ca/imager/first-look-a…
The brief on this must of read:
– Create the most innocuous and forgettable building possible
– with some fake heritage shit built into it so we dont’ upset the heritage crowd
– and make it look like we thought future bldgs would look like in the 70s
– and put as many pieces and sections on it as possible so it looks expensive and complicated
Whereas ottawa brief was like: update our old centre and make it simple, unique, beautiful and functional
So tired of this backwards city.
Ottawa convention centre = $170 million
Halifax convention centre = $160 million
http://www.rankinc.ca for pics of his beautiful new complex. Don’t forget that our $160 million convention centre section will be just underneath Grafton street (or, Grafton ‘Galleria’). Oh yea, and check it out, the loading docks up on Market street…
Let’s wait for a final decision from the feds, and if it’s positive, let’s build a multi-story BROTHEL. We can have various levels for various kinks, private funding would be not be a problem.
actually since 2000,the trade has made money,the last two were short of expectations,but money was made,never in the red…we have no trouble with spending on a multitude of sports,outdoor concerts or three useless sewage treatments plants;but when a proposal comes forth that will make money for businesses in the downtown core such as hotels,restaurants and bars..people get up in arms…shake your heads and realize that sometimes you have to spend money to get money
Seriously, how can anyone believe that an underground convention centre is going to attract planners from away? There are so many new above-ground, spacious, naturally-lit, environmentally conscious centres with entire façades consisting of windows and with excellent views of their respective cities.
Think about it. Convention attendees will be spending pretty much entire days in the centre – they want visual access to outside, they want natural light, they want views. If a planner had a choice what would attract them to Halifax? The only thing I can think of is bargain basement prices. Sounds like a money-making venture to me!
HALIFAX MENTOR – dude , you have to stop saying the place makes money. It does not. Here’s a link to Trade Centre’s own annual reports:
http://www.tradecentrelimited.com/en/home/…
They lost $1.6 m last year.
That’s added to the total of $40m accumulated loss over 25 years
And that loss will get higher and continue for the next 25 years if they build a second convention centre to ‘compete’ with the first.
This isn’t spin or opinion or save the view or heritage. It’s just a simple fact that is apparently very very hard to hoist in, but it’s written right there on the page in the Trade Centre annual reports year in and year out. Go to their site and read it instead of talking such nonsense. I’m giving you the link – all you have to do is press the button and read the numbers.
If you look closely you will also see those numbers would be worse by tens of millions if not for the Metro Centre events. Take those out and it is truly abysmal. It’s not just that the convention centre doesn’t make money and doesn’t create the ‘spin-offs’ being discussed it costs us A LOT. A full half point of the HST we all pay goes just to finance Trade Centre limited’s dream that they are an economic engine.
They are not. They are economic Vampires.
John Wesley Chisholm
JWC..the annual report also states ————————————————————————-“On behalf of the Board of Directors, it is my great pleasure to share
with you the 2008-2009 Annual Report for Trade Centre Limited. TCL
had a terrific year, generating $176.1 million in direct and incremental
expenditures for the benefit of Nova Scotia’s through hosting 698
events and 886,868 visitors”……………………………………Just so we have all our facts straight here. Remember, And I know you have a difficulties trying to grasp this concept, but trade centers are designed to generate revenue for the city as a whole and not for the building itself. You are pretty good at claiming those who support this proposal are simplistic and incapable of understanding the economics of a project of this scale. I have to ask what expertise on convention centers and large scale economic stimulus projects do you bring to the table? Have you managed the financials of a project like this before, are you a professor of economics, or say an expert in urban planning? My opinion is based on published economic impact reports https://conventioncentreinfo.com/documents…, Opinion of the The Downtown Halifax Business Commission http://downtownhalifax.ca/index.php/blog_e… and my personal experience attending conventions in Halifax and other cities as a “tag along” tourist.
I think we can all agree that downtown is in a serious state of decline and has been heading down this path for over 25 years. With the loss of Hungry Chili and the relocation of both downtown Pro Skates stores the once vibrant Blowers Street will now be looking more like Barrington Street. Halifax needs this project to help inject revenue into a dying downtown. Halifax also needs more high density residential buildings in the downtown core. Why is it that people like yourself and Tim so vehemently appose this while not a peep of opposition is heard when the city plans on spending tens of millions on more upcoming urban sprawl developments?
new news – you believe the BS from TCL
Obviously the 886,868 visitors come from hockey games, the NS Tattoo and other events , and also the conventions and concerts.
TCL then applies a dollar multiplier to come up with the $176.1 million in revenues. Voodoo economics.
You must believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy if you so easily accept the TCL numbers. They do not even admit that the dollar figure is an estimate.
Well, Mr. News, I put my name on my comments so that people reading them know exactly what qualifications I have to make the comments. And if you’re seriously asking, I would be happy to send you a complete biography of what they are. But to summarize I would say yes I am qualified to speak to this issue.
In a similar vein, I take the annual report that the auditors put their name to more seriously than the unsupported puffery put forward in the TCL remarks or their hired marketing analyst consultants. It is important to remember that they have no duty of care to us, the public, or to the truth by any measure. The auditors on the other hand have a legal obligation to both. I, like every bank, economist and financial analyst in the world, will stick with what they say.
Regarding your “Halifax is dying” notion, please refer to last week’s reports on the economic growth in Halifax. Without going all through it, it is fair to reject the notion and don’t worry there will be more chili shops and from most people’s perspective in HRM Quinpool is still downtown.
John Wesley
Also, Mr News, you and I are in total agreement on the issue of downtown residential development and the trouble with suburban sprawl. I’ve written extensively on what I call the “myth of development” arguing that the perceived benefits in increased taxes and spin-offs could never meet the required increase in the cost of delivering city-like infrastructure and services to the deep suburban world.
I think this is a fairly generally accepted worldview as expressed well in the doc Radiant City when they said the suburban model we are currently supporting in Canada today is perhaps the biggest misuse and waste of resources and wealth the civilized world has ever known.
It’s surprising that you understand the flaw in the thinking about suburban sprawl but don’t agree that the same populist “you can have it all” huckster silliness is being used to support the notion that convention centres create successful economies and not the truth which, apart from the self-identified proponents perspective of this… thing… is other way around.
The real question the government’s will be asking themselves in the coming days is NOT will the convention centre create a healthy economy – it will be, is the economy healthy enough to support a second convention centre. And they are only asking that question to appease the small cabal of downtown business interests proposing it. The governments are well aware that there are thousands of better and wiser ways to proceed to build a better Nova Scotia.
John Wesley Chisholm
Hey JWC…slow down when reading and responding. I said DOWNTOWN Halifax is dying. A quick walk from the waterfront through to Barrington will reveal this to anyone who is looking. Vacant retail abounds. Forward thinking cities understand that a strong and vital downtown is key to a cities future success.
So you are qualified to huff and puff about this all the time because you say so? That’s funny. I got to ask again why are you so appose to downtown development yet ignore the tens of millions of city budget money being spent on urban sprawl infrastructure development. Why is no one debating that? Like my prior post said I form my opinion based on published studies and downtown business/retail community support of this development. You know…the people that actually know what they are talking about.
You should open your mind to what other more informed people have to say like Bernie Smith http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1204… Instead of these incredibly biased Coast articles. Don’t forget they had to already post one public apology on this very subject.
you posted while I was responding your prior post. I glad you feel some sort of development downtown is a good idea. I wish people like yourself and Coast articles would focus some of that energy in to more vocal opposition to the current development of suburban sprawl taking place all over this city.
“you can have it all” huckster silliness. Are you serious? There has been no substantial development downtown since Purdy Towers were built in the 80’s and no real city infrastructure improvements downtown.(aside from a seriously flawed wastewater treatment plant) That’s what a convention center is….It’s part of a cities infrastructure, not designed to be profitable in itself but to bring revenue to the whole of downtown. Does the library make a profit? no of course not but it is still vital to downtown. I can’t believe that you think of this as a “have it all attitude” in a downtown that has changed little since 1985.
Mr. News,
I consider Mr. Smith a friend. We’ve talked at length and I have listened very carefully to everything he has to say on this issue. In fact, on the long list of “what’s better than a convention centre” I might well support investing $160 m in Bernie Smith and I have great faith, if given actual choices, he would not use it to build a second convention centre.
Libraries, like school books, beds in hospitals and peace in our troubled communities, are fundamentally different kinds of investments than convention centres. But when we are in a debt and deficit position even our investments in those things require very difficult choices.
In spite of the Halifax is Dying chorus, that refrain is simply not true. Please look back to last week’s media. Halifax is changing, as cities do, and I believe the city, already the best place in the world to live as far as I’m concerned, is changing for the better.
I also think my lack of interest in the “spin-off” scraps from the table argument in support of a second convention centre is a very mainstream point of view. We should talk about it more. There’s a PechaKucha Night event coming up. You should come and present your thoughts.
Thanks for writing your thoughts and good luck to us all.
This week, so the government says, is the week they will reveal… something… about the proposed second Convention Centre.
I don’t know how it will turn out but here’s the truth. They are not trying to figure out if the convention centre will create a healthy economy. They are trying to figure out if the economy is healthy enough to support a second convention centre. They are not trying to figure out if Nova Scotians support the public investment in a second convention centre; they are trying to figure out if the heavily taxed and indebted citizens can support the real burden of a second convention centre.
Cool story, bro.