"Why do you protest the G20, G8 ? Would you prefer that the powerful nations did not communicate openly? Would you prefer no communication? War?"
Why don't you try to answer these questions yourself? You can start by looking into the economic policies that are tossed around during these g8/20 meetings, and ask yourself whose interests these policies serve (especially austerity measures). Powerful nations do not communicate openly, they do the bulk of their "communicating" behind closed doors. Would I prefer war? I would not, nor would the people in countries that have been invaded by the US for natural resources. E.g., Iraq for oil, Afghanstan for lithium...
@Bro Tim: "Em and all you other critics, please tell us how you would have handed the security and what your orders would be."
I can only try to answer that question from the perspective of a citizen who was affected by what happened, and not from a position that can claim any authority on how security is generally carried out.
Duties of the Toronto Police include, but are not limited to:
1. Protecting life and preventing injury
2. Preventing crimes and other offences and providing assistance and encouragement to other persons in their prevention
3.Protect property
4. Apprehending criminals and other offenders and others who may lawfully be taken into custody. (http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/whenstopped…)
It follows, then, that the police ought to have ordered the crowd around the burning cars to disperse just in case someone got hurt. They ought to have stepped in when the shopfronts were being smashed to protect these businesses. And they ought to have immediately arrested the kids who were vandalizing shop windows instead of watching them do it. There were about 20,000 police around. I don't buy the "not breaking ranks" argument. There were enough of them around to perform their duties, rather than standing back and allowing the spectacle to occur.
@Dr. Fever, you have made many good points. You said that the last post will be your final comment on the matter, but I have a couple of questions to ask you, and I'm looking forward to your answer. Anyone else can jump in because this is something that I am having a hard time understanding...
On Saturday (the day of the main rally), I got home at about 6:30-7pm. I remember sitting down thoroughly exhausted and watching the news. One thing caught my attention. Up to that point, approx. 12 arrests had been made. Let me take a moment to remind you that Saturday was the day when cars got torched, shops got trashed, and the police looked on as the media filmed it all.
By Sunday afternoon the arrests had jumped to 700+ people. By Sunday, the police had also become disturbingly brutal, whereas the day before, they had shown restraint. Why were so many arrests made on a day where people were peacefully protesting by singing and dancing in the streets, praying in healing circles in the park, and so forth?
Also, it is on record that the police were told to "stand back" as the havoc erupted in the streets on Saturday. Why? And, even more importantly, who gave the order to do so?
On a final note Fever, I was reading a couple of your earlier posts, and I want to address two things:
"How to act pragmatically about civil liberties? Pretty easy. These people were allowed to congregate and protest. The minute that things got uneasy, people started getting arrested."
No, the minute that things got uneasy, the police stood back and watched it happen.
"[t]he police have every expectation to ensure that people and businesses are protected. The protesters have rights, but the people that would be hurt by those who would take liberties or create "civil disobedience" (which we will call criminal behaviour from this point further) have equal rights to have their property protected."
Really? The police did nothing to protect the businesses--as I said before, they watched it happen.
Thanks for listening. I had to get this stuff off my chest.
@Dr. Fever,
“None of this addresses my questions towards you about the CCLA, but let's leave to them their own devices, that is criticizing for the sake of criticizing, right or wrong.”
I did say I had a couple of minutes and that I would be brief. Further, I’m not clear on what questions I was supposed to be addressing. Also, I don’t have a blog. In fact, I try to avoid computers as much as I can. I have nothing to gain by posting this stuff--I’m doing it because I think that what happened in Toronto was morally objectionable.
And Fever, you’re putting words into my mouth. I did not say that the mainstream media is not to be trusted. In fact, there are many mainstream media sites that have been sympathetic to what has occurred. I did say that what was on much of the news re G20 was propaganda. Feedback loops of burning cop cars tend to be edited in that fashion for visceral impact. Please explain how you understand propaganda because if you are conflating raw youtube footage from people who were at the protest and mainstream media footage then there is a problem.
And yes, my truth is different to your truth probably because I was there and I saw what happened first hand, whereas you did not. UFB and meow are much closer to the “truth” than what you are espousing.
I agree that some of the kids at the protest did not fully understand the concept of globalization, but they did understand that globalization is not necessarily compatible with social justice. There were many university profs, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, and all sorts of people who fully understand the consequences of globalization. They marched, and some were arrested.
FYI, at the last count, there were over 1000 arrests made and some are still being detained. People did not have access to lawyers, and some were detained for over 24 hours with no explanation for why they were detained. Would you believe me if I told you that gays and lesbians were put in separate cages to heterosexuals?
Martym, I'm afraid I don't have a friend/relative who goes by the name of montreal man, but I do have a friend of a friend who has an idiot friend by the name of martym who posts on the Coast.
As for Dr. Fever, everyone acts on principle. And pray tell, what exactly is rational thought? Why don't you also give me a lesson on how to act pragmatically in the capacity of an organization that defends civil liberties? I'm very eager to learn from your wisdom.
For those of you who are interested in the political ramifications of what happened, rabble.ca (alternative news) has covered the G20 quite well.
And Ivan, I would reply to your posts, but I found them juvenile, and frankly, I got bored by the second sentence. Have some compassion for the Coast readers, and desist from trying to be a comedian--you are simply not funny.
As for the Coast journalists... someone should have written a story about what happened (is happening) in Toronto in terms of civil liberties. Especially seeing there were also people from Halifax who got arrested. Tim Bousquet comes to mind--he's an excellent writer and rigorous with his research. But that's a pipe dream...
Oh, and just to be clear... I do not condone violence, and unfortunately the message of the peaceful rally was hijacked by the people who decided to trash Toronto. Even so, there is no excuse for innocent people (including senior citizens) to get put in a detention cell for hours with no access to a lawyer and proper food simply because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The expansion of police power via secret meetings held overnight sets a dangerous precedent. You folks should be speaking up about what happened rather than taking your talking points from South Park.
And Ivan, you strike me as a royal idiot. I hope I'm wrong with my first impressions.
Recent Comments
Why don't you try to answer these questions yourself? You can start by looking into the economic policies that are tossed around during these g8/20 meetings, and ask yourself whose interests these policies serve (especially austerity measures). Powerful nations do not communicate openly, they do the bulk of their "communicating" behind closed doors. Would I prefer war? I would not, nor would the people in countries that have been invaded by the US for natural resources. E.g., Iraq for oil, Afghanstan for lithium...
I can only try to answer that question from the perspective of a citizen who was affected by what happened, and not from a position that can claim any authority on how security is generally carried out.
Duties of the Toronto Police include, but are not limited to:
1. Protecting life and preventing injury
2. Preventing crimes and other offences and providing assistance and encouragement to other persons in their prevention
3.Protect property
4. Apprehending criminals and other offenders and others who may lawfully be taken into custody. (http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/whenstopped…)
It follows, then, that the police ought to have ordered the crowd around the burning cars to disperse just in case someone got hurt. They ought to have stepped in when the shopfronts were being smashed to protect these businesses. And they ought to have immediately arrested the kids who were vandalizing shop windows instead of watching them do it. There were about 20,000 police around. I don't buy the "not breaking ranks" argument. There were enough of them around to perform their duties, rather than standing back and allowing the spectacle to occur.
On Saturday (the day of the main rally), I got home at about 6:30-7pm. I remember sitting down thoroughly exhausted and watching the news. One thing caught my attention. Up to that point, approx. 12 arrests had been made. Let me take a moment to remind you that Saturday was the day when cars got torched, shops got trashed, and the police looked on as the media filmed it all.
By Sunday afternoon the arrests had jumped to 700+ people. By Sunday, the police had also become disturbingly brutal, whereas the day before, they had shown restraint. Why were so many arrests made on a day where people were peacefully protesting by singing and dancing in the streets, praying in healing circles in the park, and so forth?
Also, it is on record that the police were told to "stand back" as the havoc erupted in the streets on Saturday. Why? And, even more importantly, who gave the order to do so?
On a final note Fever, I was reading a couple of your earlier posts, and I want to address two things:
"How to act pragmatically about civil liberties? Pretty easy. These people were allowed to congregate and protest. The minute that things got uneasy, people started getting arrested."
No, the minute that things got uneasy, the police stood back and watched it happen.
"[t]he police have every expectation to ensure that people and businesses are protected. The protesters have rights, but the people that would be hurt by those who would take liberties or create "civil disobedience" (which we will call criminal behaviour from this point further) have equal rights to have their property protected."
Really? The police did nothing to protect the businesses--as I said before, they watched it happen.
Thanks for listening. I had to get this stuff off my chest.
“None of this addresses my questions towards you about the CCLA, but let's leave to them their own devices, that is criticizing for the sake of criticizing, right or wrong.”
I did say I had a couple of minutes and that I would be brief. Further, I’m not clear on what questions I was supposed to be addressing. Also, I don’t have a blog. In fact, I try to avoid computers as much as I can. I have nothing to gain by posting this stuff--I’m doing it because I think that what happened in Toronto was morally objectionable.
And Fever, you’re putting words into my mouth. I did not say that the mainstream media is not to be trusted. In fact, there are many mainstream media sites that have been sympathetic to what has occurred. I did say that what was on much of the news re G20 was propaganda. Feedback loops of burning cop cars tend to be edited in that fashion for visceral impact. Please explain how you understand propaganda because if you are conflating raw youtube footage from people who were at the protest and mainstream media footage then there is a problem.
And yes, my truth is different to your truth probably because I was there and I saw what happened first hand, whereas you did not. UFB and meow are much closer to the “truth” than what you are espousing.
I agree that some of the kids at the protest did not fully understand the concept of globalization, but they did understand that globalization is not necessarily compatible with social justice. There were many university profs, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, and all sorts of people who fully understand the consequences of globalization. They marched, and some were arrested.
FYI, at the last count, there were over 1000 arrests made and some are still being detained. People did not have access to lawyers, and some were detained for over 24 hours with no explanation for why they were detained. Would you believe me if I told you that gays and lesbians were put in separate cages to heterosexuals?
As for Dr. Fever, everyone acts on principle. And pray tell, what exactly is rational thought? Why don't you also give me a lesson on how to act pragmatically in the capacity of an organization that defends civil liberties? I'm very eager to learn from your wisdom.
And Ivan, I would reply to your posts, but I found them juvenile, and frankly, I got bored by the second sentence. Have some compassion for the Coast readers, and desist from trying to be a comedian--you are simply not funny.
As for the Coast journalists... someone should have written a story about what happened (is happening) in Toronto in terms of civil liberties. Especially seeing there were also people from Halifax who got arrested. Tim Bousquet comes to mind--he's an excellent writer and rigorous with his research. But that's a pipe dream...
Keep your head buried in the sand, Ivan.
Happy Canada Day!
The expansion of police power via secret meetings held overnight sets a dangerous precedent. You folks should be speaking up about what happened rather than taking your talking points from South Park.
And Ivan, you strike me as a royal idiot. I hope I'm wrong with my first impressions.